Looking for a guide who works with the Fetter Model

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

And yet.... Even as I write now it feels as if there is identification with the "inner voice" - i.e. thoughts - as me, when I write. In this moment it feels as if the inner voice is me. It feels as if I am choosing to write you now and what to write. Looks like there is more looking to do...

All right

Can you make a distinguish between what thoughts are narrating and what's really happening?

What is the difference between a thought and a content of a thought?

That there is a thought is real? Thought is here as part of experience,

But what about its content?


Can that one which is supposedly whirring and choosing be found somewhere else that as a content of a thought?

Sending much love,
Luchana


ps. This Saturday 27th of May we are making a day online retreat...
here are the details if you feel an impulse to join message me.

https://awakeningawakened.com

[Elad]

In stillness in only looking it is clear that everything happens by itself without a separate self. Peaceful and clear, natural, precious.

Thoughts are only thoughts.

The content of thoughts is only the content of thoughts, and can only point, no more.

This is absolutely clear. I believe we are finished.

The last doubt fell this evening, sitting still doing nothing, letting go of trying anything. Seeing how everything including thoughts and sensations and feelings happen by themselves.

The crux was to be fully clear about the difference between seeing and thinking.

This is precious and simple and natural. It has been glimpsed and felt many times before. The last help here was to bring precise questions to see what created the confusion.

Thank you for helping me!

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

This is absolutely clear. I believe we are finished.

Mmm no believe is required here. Nothing is required..
Are you in hurry? :-)

I have some more questions for you if you don't mind.

What is Elad?

How Elad is experienced?

Did Elad make a conscious choice to subscribe into the forum?

Thank you for helping me!

You are most welcome:-)

Sending much love,
Luchana

[Elad]

Thank you Luchana.

Elad is a word, a name. In direct experience there is only an unfolding of experience. Within this unfolding of experience, are all the phenomenta that conventionally are called Elad, or mine, i.e.: wishes, feelings, memories, habbits, thinking, skills, talents, etc. etc. etc. In particular, within this experiencing whole, is included the knowledge of how to cummunincate and relate in the world as Elad.

All this however does not exist as separate from the whole, and the real functioning of the whole is beyond all these descriptions and words.

Did Elad choose to subscribe to LU? Conventionally speaking yes. However: Ultimately speaking no seperate person Elad who can choose can be found. "Choice" cannot be seperated out from the mystery of the whole. Where do thoughts and wishes and beliefs come from? Where do actions start? We cannot really point to this.

We can only create more or less useful stories about causes and choices, that might be experienced as helpful or not on a practical level. Ultimately speaking though, the whole is beyond descriptions, and no independent causes or choices can be found.

With appreciation
Elad

[Elad]

And yet, a lot of the time it doesn't feel like there has been a fundamental change.

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

Elad is a word, a name. In direct experience there is only an unfolding of experience. Within this unfolding of experience, are all the phenomenta that conventionally are called Elad, or mine, i.e.: wishes, feelings, memories, habbits, thinking, skills, talents, etc. etc. etc. In particular, within this experiencing whole, is included the knowledge of how to cummunincate and relate in the world as Elad.

All this however does not exist as separate from the whole, and the real functioning of the whole is beyond all these descriptions and words.

I'm reading and there is a feeling of intellectual knowledge still.. I'm totally with you here, tell me what's happening in the daily life?

Does it feel that I'm choosing, I'm thinking, I'm living my life?

And yet, a lot of the time it doesn't feel like there has been a fundamental change.

The fundamental change is experiential and it comes with looking at experience. Knowing that is not enough. We are all so drawn tot intellectualising and thinking about that. But It is OK. this is happening due to habit and this habit leads the experience.

Here is an invitation for tomorrow if you want to try together?

27th of May (Saturday) we open a space for an intense exploration 3 x 90 min. on that matter.
Have a look at the details and if you have an implus just jump, without thinking :-)

Down The Rabbit Hole – 27th of May
One day online retreat. 3 meetings 90 min each.
Starts 3:00 pm ends 8:30 pm Sofia, Bulgaria EEST
Details:

https://awakeningawakened.com

Sending much love,
Luchana

[Elad]

A couple of things quick, then I will spend more time with your questions:

1) How does it feel in daily life:

I only report things to you that I have the experience of seeing, nothing that is just thought or belief. This has been so from the start. That being said, my experience is that experience shifts a lot. When there is not a deliberate looking, the sense of being the thinker and the doer returns, and the not knowing is there. It's as if there is a strong pull in that direction (that wording though, is a speculation) When there is deliberate looking, it is glimpsed that there is no separate doer or chooser. I will keep looking with the aim of a more thorough and stable seeing through. Any help is highly appreciated.

2) Down the rabbit hole - I really appreciate your help. And I really appreciate that this forum is not for profit. For now I would prefer if you only suggest things for me that are explicitly not-for-profit. I understand and respect that you have made this your livelihood too. I myself work with meditation and therapy and self-inquiry etc. It makes sense to me that you make this your work. I just prefer from here, if it is okay, we keep this cooperation within the not-for-profit nature of this forum. If in the future I want to seek out your for-profit services, which could happen, I will. If you feel called to invite me to a live meeting of any sort, within the agreements of this forum, just let me know.

Thanks again

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

I only report things to you that I have the experience of seeing, nothing that is just thought or belief. This has been so from the start. That being said, my experience is that experience shifts a lot. When there is not a deliberate looking, the sense of being the thinker and the doer returns, and the not knowing is there. It's as if there is a strong pull in that direction (that wording though, is a speculation) When there is deliberate looking, it is glimpsed that there is no separate doer or chooser. I will keep looking with the aim of a more thorough and stable seeing through. Any help is highly appreciated.

How EXACTLY the sense of being the thinker and the doer returns?
Is there something REAL which is performing the action of returning?
If yes - where is its precise location?

Down the rabbit hole - I really appreciate your help. And I really appreciate that this forum is not for profit. For now I would prefer if you only suggest things for me that are explicitly not-for-profit. I understand and respect that you have made this your livelihood too. I myself work with meditation and therapy and self-inquiry etc. It makes sense to me that you make this your work. I just prefer from here, if it is okay, we keep this cooperation within the not-for-profit nature of this forum. If in the future I want to seek out your for-profit services, which could happen, I will. If you feel called to invite me to a live meeting of any sort, within the agreements of this forum, just let me know.

Thank you for you honest reply, highly appreciate that. There is no choice here to made that a livelihood, it happens exactly like everything else... volunteering here is coming from joy and compassion and it is the same joy and compassion which is "doing" the meetings and events. Here there is no difference. I totally understand if you do not want to participate in anything else apart from the guiding process here and of course there are no requirements what so ever.
How there could be?

Actually this is a great opportunity and invitation for you to look deeper.

And it is so good to notice the belief of profit and no-profit.

Who or what is having that issue of profit and no-profit?

The abundance requires no limits.

Is there something separate? Something limited?

How is this one experienced exactly?

Sending much love,
Luchana

[Elad]

"How EXACTLY the sense of being the thinker and the doer returns?
Is there something REAL which is performing the action of returning?
If yes - where is its precise location?
"


In paying full attention to what is, it is seen that there is no "I", thoughts are happening by themselves, this writing is happening by itself, etc.

When not paying full attention to what is here and now, the dream of I returns. Most of life has been used not paying full attention to what is here and now, but rather in thinking, analyzing, reflecting, imagining. So the sense of thinker and doer returns with a return to old patterns of thinking and imagining. This happens habitually and naturally without choice. The habit of engaging life through the filter of thinking an I seems very strong - and it is not a choice.

In the same way, paying full attention now and engaging in in this writing and saying that there is no "I" outside of thought is happening without choice. In this real presence everything can only be spontaneous.

Regarding the topic of different offers, from presence, it is enough to say that whatever feels inspired and natural will happen.

Thank you!

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

When not paying full attention to what is here and now, the dream of I returns.

In the same way, paying full attention now and engaging in in this writing and saying that there is no "I" outside of thought is happening without choice. In this real presence everything can only be spontaneous.

Let's have a closer look here...let's try to find who or what is moving the attention.


Close your eyes and sit quietly for 10-15 minutes.
Watch what focus does.
Focus on focussing, attention itself.

What moves attention?
Do you move it?
Is a thought in control of attention?

Or attention moves by itself.

Hold focus on breath.

See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.

Is this something YOU control?


Reply each question individually.
Take your time

Sending love,
Luchana

[Elad]

What moves attention?

- Nothing moves it, it moves by itself.


Do you move it?

- No as I pay attention to attention, it is seen how it moves by itself, like the whole field of experience changes by itself.


Is a thought in control of attention?

- No. Thoughts cannot control or act, they appear and disappear in awareness.



Or attention moves by itself.

- Right it is so.




Hold focus on breath.

See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds.

Is this something YOU control?

- No this happens without control.



I know you said take time, but this is all quite clear. I did the exercise 15 min. In fact I have done this exercise more times than I can count. But I did it now. And what was seen is what is written above.

[Elad]

Looking more on how it is, I can see I keep believing or at least doubting most if the time on a deep level, that/if I am choosing and in control. But what is true?

Of course when I only look, I don't see myself choose and control, because the only choice and is invisible to the looking, i e.: to only look. But right now it feels like I am choosing to write this. That feels true. However, is it true?

Is it really a seperate me choosing to write now or is it life choosing to write and then there is the thought that "it's me choosing and doing"? I'm not sure.

1 7 4 6 8 2

It feels like I could choose here each time which number to pick next. And yet, how did I choose? I cannot explain it, only say it felt as if I chose.

I am right now navigating an intense romantic situation. It feels as if I maybe have big choices to make, how to act right, and big risk to make mistake. And yet, is that true? It can also feel like I don't really have a choice. It feels like I could relax more if I saw clearly that I am not controlling anything.

My counter argument to all the no-self stuff is this: of course it looks like I am not there and not choosing, when attention is directed to just seeing. In just seeing the I is in the background, it is the one choosing to only see.

And yet is there a self choosing, or is it just life choosing or life lifing plus the belief in an I that chooses? Not sure.

Do I choose to keep attention on the breath and when it goes away? Yes I can choose to place attention on the breath and return it to it. The capacity is very imperfect but this doesn't mean I have no choice at all. It would be like saying, because I cannot cook a perfect three star meal I cannot cook at all.

Do I choose to move my fingers in writing now, given how I clearly do not control exactly how they do it and their timing? The truth is I am not sure. Clearly I do not fully control it. So much about the way my fingers move and the fact they even exist, I could no make happen. And yet this does not provide proof my will has no influence, that I do not exist and choose at all.

I cannot find the seperate self anywhere. No precise physical location, etc. Does this fully convince me that I don't exist? No. Just because we cannot see subatomic particles or that the earth is round without thinking, it doesn't mean they don't exist, are not true.

The truth is I am not fully convinced.

Now I think I know how you are gonna respond: this is all thinking, you need to see the difference between thinking and seeing.

To this I can respond: Your answer to me is also thinking. Your instructions to me are also thoughts. You affirm/confirm thoughts and experiences that give evidence to no-self as valid evidence, and you invalidate thoughts and experiences of self and choice as just intellectual and illusory. Just because you say to me again and again, "this is intellectual", it doesnt mean what I say is not true.

To be honest: I doubt you can understand what I say clear enough to answer me with anything else than say: this is intellectual or some other similar response that essentially just *claims* I do not see clearly and/or don't exist. And then to provide me with more similar questions and exercises, essentially what we are all ready doing.

And at the same time I appreciate also that, since it supports a motivation to keep looking and questioning. I hope you see reality clear and can help. I hope and trust it's okay with you that I am honest, that I don't trust that you/LU/no-self-teachings are true, based on faith.

Hope to be positively surprised by this process and that at some point the truth will become clear beyond doubt and in a stable way. Believe and have a feeling it would be a big relief if I saw beyond doubt that I am not in control of anything, only life is. At this point there is openness to the perspective and to keep looking and investigating.

No one is seperate, no one was in control to chose to write this and send this, is it true? Just life lifing no? Not sure. Looking...

[Elad]

I can see all the ways it looks like there is no ultimate control over thoughts, feelings, wishes, attention, etc etc. I can sense a relief in that and a wish to clarify fully what is true.

[Luchana]

Hi Elad,

The truth is I am not fully convinced.

Now I think I know how you are gonna respond: this is all thinking, you need to see the difference between thinking and seeing.

To this I can respond: Your answer to me is also thinking. Your instructions to me are also thoughts. You affirm/confirm thoughts and experiences that give evidence to no-self as valid evidence, and you invalidate thoughts and experiences of self and choice as just intellectual and illusory. Just because you say to me again and again, "this is intellectual", it doesnt mean what I say is not true.

To be honest: I doubt you can understand what I say clear enough to answer me with anything else than say: this is intellectual or some other similar response that essentially just *claims* I do not see clearly and/or don't exist. And then to provide me with more similar questions and exercises, essentially what we are all ready doing.

And at the same time I appreciate also that, since it supports a motivation to keep looking and questioning. I hope you see reality clear and can help. I hope and trust it's okay with you that I am honest, that I don't trust that you/LU/no-self-teachings are true, based on faith.

Thank you so much for sharing that. This is your experience and it is TOTALLY valid. I really appreciate your honesty and willingness to look.
All is welcome - confusion, frustration, faith, no faith. So common is all which you experience.

I have a suggestion and invitation - how about to meet each other for 30-40 min? in zoom?
Because some of the misunderstandings and blind sports which are at place can be seen and the picture may become clearer so to speak.

You don't have to worry about anything, no fee, no charge.

Let me know what you think?

And we will see which the day and time.

Sending much love,
Luchana

[Elad]

That is kind of you Luchana, thank you I would like that. I will write to you via email to coordinate.