beyond identity, beyond thought, beyond emotion

[ankitawho]

Hi Logan,

Always wonderful to read your answers, and I appreciate your commitment and openness so much.

In continuation, lets do an exploration of "memory". Some questions might feel repetitive, but please allow each one to work in you:

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.
Please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.
Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.
What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?
Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?
Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

Warmly,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

Enjoying these answering these questions. :-)

What is memory exactly?

Visuals going on in the “minds eye”. Including auditory, even a sense of smell. Things are not very cohesive, very scattered. Accompanying this are emotions. Memory also includes current opinions, interpretations.

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Thoughts in the form of visuals, auditory, smells, emotions. These are goings in conjunction with physical densa it be. Simultaneous. Ultimately sensations/arisings happening currently.

WHEN does the memory appear?

It appears in the immediate moment. Theres no sense of it appearing at a specific point in time, and once it might appear that way, then that itself is another memory that is currently happening.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

The part of experience stating that one is “more real” is just another thought appearing. There doesn’t appear to be any difference at all. Just various thoughts coming and going.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It isn’t known. The memory thought is just a thought happening now. Anything with the memory is in the immediate experience, it’s referencing itself.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Thoughts, images, mental sensations. all thoughts. Commonly have an emotional quality to them, but that too is happening now, not waiting in the future.

WHEN does the future thought appear?

It happens in the immediate moment. It happens now. In this moment. As above, an indication of when would also just be a thought happening in this very moment, in which there is nothing separate from it.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

Both have words going on, and other sensations, such as an emotional tone. Neither really has a difference in actuality. When either arise there is no separate experience between the two.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It isn’t known, it’s just another thought. Another thought coming up. It has no more of a basis in actuality than a thought about the past, thoughts about the future, thoughts of current arisings.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future? If there is difference, how is that difference is known exactly?

Thoughts about the past have a”matter of fact” quality to them. While the future can be very what if. Looking at both of these though, every aspect of those two outlooks are just thoughts. Thoughts going on now.

There is no difference between those two types of thoughts. Any thought that comes might bring with it various em lotions and physical sensations, but these are all immediate, constant yet ever changing experience.

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Hello again Logan,

Great :)

Visuals going on in the “minds eye”.

Tell me more about this "mind's eye" please, what do you mean by this?

Today, I wish to ask you: How would you describe "this" experience to someone who doesn't "see"?

Also, do you have any burning questions?

Loving,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

Tell me more about this "mind's eye" please, what do you mean by this?

Minds eye in regards to visual thoughts, imaginative, like the exercise of visualizing an apple, then a canary etc. Simply, Visualizing. Appearances.

Memories can carry a visual aspect to them. These are appearances however. The “visuals” doesn’t make a memory real, as much as a future “visual” isn’t real. Just arisings happening now.

How would you describe "this" experience to someone who doesn't "see"?

This experience is all there is. Thinking, seeing, hearing, touching, feeling. These are all arising from nowhere and going back into nothing. Any thought that arises is simply appearing. Any thought that lead to another thought is also just an arising. Anything that is seen, is just an arising. When viewing an apple, the apple appears, but there isn’t an actual separate thing there. It’s all things arising. Sounds come and go from nothing.

All of these appearances come from nothing. There is no “choosing” a thought. The choice itself would be a thought itself and the question would remain, who chose? Who asks the question? When looking, nothing and nobody is found. The only thing that is found is just hearing, seeing, feeling, touching, smelling, thinking. JUST this. It’s profoundly simple. Paradoxically simple. The “you” or “I” feeling, the identity feeling, is just appearing. Any, train of thought leading to an Identity is simply another identity appearing. There isn’t a separation. There isn’t a subject or object. There is just these arisings, coming, going, shifting, in the only ‘moment’. There’s just THIS.

Also, do you have any burning questions?

Intense, sudden emotions, such as dealing with complicated and/or sensitive situations and/or people. Lack of a self, but these situations can still bring on a wide variety of negative thoughts, emotions, reactions.

How are these typically handled? Or is it more about letting these just be? Letting those arise and just accepting them as they are. If there is a verbal/physical/emotional response, is this something to let be?

After the realization of no self, is this still a necessity of deep looking?

Thank you,

Logan

[lgn]

Hi again Ankita,

Dwelled on the questions further and wanted to elaborate a little more.

Minds eye, is not what’s real. Just a thought. Reality and everything is only in this immediate experience, and there is no other experience.

Negative emotions and reactions are simple negative emotions and reactions. When they appear, I can just look at them. Accept them. Feel them. Show them kindness and understanding. They aren’t a problem to be solved but something to be tended too.

Anyway, thank you again!

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Logan,

This experience is all there is. Thinking, seeing, hearing, touching, feeling. These are all arising from nowhere and going back into nothing. Any thought that arises is simply appearing. Any thought that lead to another thought is also just an arising. Anything that is seen, is just an arising. When viewing an apple, the apple appears, but there isn’t an actual separate thing there. It’s all things arising. Sounds come and go from nothing.

All of these appearances come from nothing. There is no “choosing” a thought. The choice itself would be a thought itself and the question would remain, who chose? Who asks the question? When looking, nothing and nobody is found. The only thing that is found is just hearing, seeing, feeling, touching, smelling, thinking. JUST this. It’s profoundly simple. Paradoxically simple. The “you” or “I” feeling, the identity feeling, is just appearing. Any, train of thought leading to an Identity is simply another identity appearing. There isn’t a separation. There isn’t a subject or object. There is just these arisings, coming, going, shifting, in the only ‘moment’. There’s just THIS.

Beautiful 🙏🏼

Minds eye, is not what’s real. Just a thought. Reality and everything is only in this immediate experience, and there is no other experience.

Understood :)

Intense, sudden emotions, such as dealing with complicated and/or sensitive situations and/or people. Lack of a self, but these situations can still bring on a wide variety of negative thoughts, emotions, reactions.

How are these typically handled? Or is it more about letting these just be? Letting those arise and just accepting them as they are. If there is a verbal/physical/emotional response, is this something to let be?

The more one is soaking in clear seeing, the more momentum & stickiness is lost from such responses. That being said, ofcourse all that can be done is seeing them for what they are, and then seeing what response comes up for the old response. Seeing is a medicine. Meeting unconscious patterns with unconditional acceptance can alchemize them in ways that may be surprising. I'm sure you already understand this, but sometimes hearing assurance that there is no "enlightened" one who is permanently undisturbed by humanness may help us put related expectations to rest.

After the realization of no self, is this still a necessity of deep looking?

Well, as such, there is no necessity for anything at all. In fact, the clearest sign of seeing is that all seeking ends.
That being said, can you ever unsee this from here on now? Can you ever consciously even pretend a thought is truth?

Today's questions go just a little bit deeper:

This experience is all there is. Thinking, seeing, hearing, touching, feeling.

Are thinking, seeing, hearing, touching and feeling different from each other?
Is there a boundary where seeing ends and hearing begins?
How does one know sight from sound unless thought says its two different aspects of experience?

Let me know,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

Thank you for your feed back. Your responses were insightful and helpful. I never really have shared this journey with others before, besides briefly with a sangha, etc. Not much of a talker so it has been great joining this community!

Anyway, to answer the questions.

Are thinking, seeing, hearing, touching and feeling different from each other?

No, they all are happening at once. Right now for instance, there really isn’t some separate sound from touch, etc. All one.

Is there a boundary where seeing ends and hearing begins?

Seeing, hearing, are not exclusive of each other. There’s no way to isolate one or the other. It’s all cohesive. Seeing “nothing” hearing “nothing”, is still hearing and seeing. There is no separation. It’s all one.

How does one know sight from sound unless thought says its two different aspects of experience?

There’s just arisings when looking. The only thing saying sound or sight is just a thought. There’s nothing visual or sound that clearly separates themselves as distinct things. There is just sight and just sound and the words are meaningless and Interchangeable.

Hope your weekend is well!

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Hi Logan,

I never really have shared this journey with others before, besides briefly with a sangha, etc. Not much of a talker so it has been great joining this community!

❤️🙏🏼 You are so welcome here.

There’s just arisings when looking. The only thing saying sound or sight is just a thought. There’s nothing visual or sound that clearly separates themselves as distinct things. There is just sight and just sound and the words are meaningless and Interchangeable.

Wonderful.

I see much clarity with you.

In your introduction answers, you expressed:

I am looking to move beyond the concept of a self. I feel as if I simultaneously have no self but still cling to these patterns of self. Particularly seeing thoughts/emotions as just thoughts/emotions. I feel as if I am sticking my limbs through the “gate” but not just walking through it. The experience is hard to explain, but knowing what this is, but still being pulled back into self when anything that triggers my emotions gets started. I am looking to see that perhaps a way to identify that there actually isn’t a me to get pulled back into those thoughts and emotions?

How do you see this now?

Please go for a walk in nature whenever life allows and try to stick to DE. I would love to hear about it.

Are there any more burning questions, doubts?

Can you say with 100% confidence that there is no self anywhere, never has been, never will be? No experiencer, no witness, no thinker, no doer?

Loving,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

How do you see this now?

Now I’m seeing there absolutely was no “gate” or anyone to get “pulled back”. My response almost has an aspect of looking for a “not self” as an identity in its own right, but that is just another arising.: there isn’t a self. It’s just arisings, not even a concrete one at that that could appear at any point to be a self. Thoughts and emotions are also a part of life and not having them would just be an expectation. There was never anything wrong with them. The idea that “they” were harmful to “me” was where the confusion and conflict was coming from. All of that are just arisings. There’s no control and nobody controlling them.

Nobody was ever getting “stuck”. Nobody was getting “pulled back”. It’s always been just this.

Are there any more burning questions, doubts?

Realized my questions and doubts are also just appearances. There’s nothing concrete to them. They are opportunities to to question, to challenge and most importantly, to look.

Can you say with 100% confidence that there is no self anywhere, never has been, never will be? No experiencer, no witness, no thinker, no doer?

No self, no doer. The believability that there’s one is just an appearance, happening in the moment. That self/doer can never be found directly. Just a thought saying “me” or “I” etc. Just arisings though. There isn’t one. It’s just this, and always has been just this.


Haven’t gotten a chance for DE directly in nature since reading this, but have been incorporating that in my walks and any chance I get to bring some awareness too. Watching things shift, and move and scenery change all of its own accord with this realization brings out such a beauty to the world.a vividness.

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Hi Logan,

This is beautiful to read.

Nobody was ever getting “stuck”. Nobody was getting “pulled back”. It’s always been just this.

❤️

There is a Zen saying that goes something like: "First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is." Can you let me know how you understand this?

Here is a document with several other pointers that you may skim through or try at your leisure: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OMfg-T ... sp=sharing

I believe we are ready to conclude :) Do you feel ready for the final questions?

Loving,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

Can you let me know how you understand this?

At first there is a separation. A self and a mountain. A mountain over there. Then there is the realization that “mountain” is just color, just an appearance. Then there is a realization that it is JUST appearance, nobody watching the appearance. Just is.


I

believe we are ready to conclude :) Do you feel ready for the final questions?

Yes, I’m ready to answer them :-)

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Hello Logan,

Great :)

Your answers to these will be shared with other guides who may have more questions for you.

Here are the final questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,
Ankita

[lgn]

Hi Ankita,

1. Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is not a self in any form and never has been. It has been an illusion of taking a pattern of arisings as a self.

2. Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is a belief, or an identification with thoughts and feelings that reflect one another. Even more simply, it’s taking the thought “I” or “me” and making that an identity. “My” past. “My” career. “I’m” unhappy.

This starts early in life, likely when language starts to be developed.

In reality those are just sensations happening. The above statements are simply thinking. Simply feeling. That is all. All there is now is just these arisings, seeing, feeling, thinking, hearing, etc. And even those labels are just thoughts themselves. No sense of separation can be found anywhere. Nothing outside of this, direct, moment.

3. How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like relaxing into what’s always been here. that there’s always just been these arisings and nothing else. Not a permanece to them or any form of concrete ness. That what was being called a self was nothing but a thought. All there is arisings. Nobody is there to control any of it. It is just a happening. These words aren’t being “planned out” and if they are the decisions being made are being made by nobody.

4. What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look

?

Finally clicked that in order to not identify with suffering and the ongoing life drama, it couldn’t be found in thinking. It couldn’t be found in any sensation coming up.

Exploring free will truly was something that really clarified things. Really showed that things are truly being controlled by nobody. If you follow the trail of thoughts it just keeps going until it’s an absolute blank. Nobody is making these decisions.

Seeing how thoughts including the other senses (hearing, looking, feeling, etc) are also not being controlled. All just flowing. Just this.

5. Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decisions is the experience of considering two options. Going to a party or staying home. Thoughts will occur around those two decision. and then another thought will occur declaring itself as the “decision”.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will the feeling of having direct control of the choices and decisions, likes, dislikes, and almost every aspect of “our” lives.

In my previous example, there could be the belief that an “I” had the free will to “decide” not to go to the party. There was a true choice. This cannot be, because there is no doer or decoder, etc when looking. It’s just happening.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is the idea of picking one or more of several options or the feeling of choosing a decision, choosing an outcome where there is “free will”

Red or blue? Blue. The feeling of an I choosing blue, is a choice thought, but nobody made that choice. When looking, nobody and nothing is found ultimately that decided to go with blue. Even that background feeling of going with blue before typing was still just an immediate thing. Nothing made that decision. There wasn’t a true “choice”.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control would be being able to manipule. A doer. Walking for example. It’s easy to think that a self is controlling walking. Looking while walking though, it’s just walking happening. I can’t find some sort person in there or found anywhere that moving legs, controlling that situation. It’s just movement.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Nothing makes things happen. All of the above findings, enforce over And over. Things are JUST happening. Just appearing. Just coming and going all this one, ever going, flowing, shifting, moment.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

There isn’t a “me” to be responsible. Life is still happening. Work, groceries, friends, vacations, bills, rent, bad moods etc. These are just unfolding. There isn’t someone deciding or navigating these things it’s just happening. It’s just this. It’s all there is and all there ever has been.

6) Anything to add?

Just want to thank you for your time, and guidance! It has been really great looking at this with you!

Best,

Logan

[ankitawho]

Logan,

There were no more questions, and I am so happy to conclude this short journey. It has been a pleasure and honour to walk alongside you. You showed up everyday with a sincerity and willingness to look, were precise with your answers, and needed the gentlest push.

LU has a facebook group for aftercare, where you can connect with others who have also just passed through the gate, if you like. You will soon receive a private message with this and other relevant information. Apart from that, your username will now change from green to blue, and our thread will be moved to "Archives" and will be accessible from there.

Please keep SEEING. :) Enjoy the unfolding of this sharp intelligence.

To deepen your understanding or as a way of giving back, you may look into being a guide yourself. I'm sure you'd make a wonderful friend to walk with many who come here to see.

I will send you my contact details if you'd like to stay in touch or ever feel like dropping me a note x

Love always,
Ankita