Hello World

[inexternal]

Hi Ankita,

Just got home from surgery and all went well thanks for the good wishes :)

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I can't answer any of these questions it just happened.
It is pointless to go to thoughts for the answer because they are not involved at all.
From reading the instructions I then hold my hand up and turn it over and over again, there is no intermediary involved, it happens after reading the instruction.
It wasn't a choice to choose the hand it was already there.

This exercise really shows that things are just happening.

Hope you are well

Tom

[ankitawho]

Hi Tom,

Glad it went well.

I loved reading your answer. There is clarity.
It would still be a good idea to tie all the open ends though, just to make sure nothing slips by us.

Earlier in the conversation, you said:

I guess what is underlying this is that I can actually control something and I would prefer to have 'better' experiences in the future. But looking at this I can see through. Yet the sense that I am in control seems quite real.

I really don't know what claims to be in control, what is upset by experience or what wants to infleunce it. It feels like acting under a spell I think, but I am not sure how to tell.

How do you see this now? Is there still a sense of control?

You also expressed:

I just feel hopeless.

Please talk to me about this. How have you been feeling lately?

Do you have any burning questions?
Do you hold any doubts?

I'm all ears,
Ankita

[inexternal]

Hi Ankita,

I guess what is underlying this is that I can actually control something and I would prefer to have 'better' experiences in the future. But looking at this I can see through. Yet the sense that I am in control seems quite real.
I really don't know what claims to be in control, what is upset by experience or what wants to infleunce it. It feels like acting under a spell I think, but I am not sure how to tell.

Looking at these answers it appears that there is some confusion and lots of thoughts
strung together in order to formulate an interpretation of expereince or somewhere to stand.
'I can see through' the sense of being or not being in control are just thoughts.

Is there still a sense of control?

The sense of control felt previously was just a story. Control supposes that there is something separate.

How have you been feeling lately?

I have been feeling great actually comparing to when I wrote this. Not really been thinking too much when I come to think of it xD! There has been less of a focus about how I am feeling and just more of what is
actually happening.

Do you have any burning questions?

what is the gateless gate?
being is it. life lifeing as I have heard said before. so it is not possible to be separate but it can be perceived that you are. I am wondering if the overuse of intellect to navigate life leads to a perceived disconnect, what do you think?

Do you hold any doubts?
'I' holds a few doubts that sometimes arise. There is no space for doubt when looked at.

There seems to be an openness to what is which is very liberating. The openness to what is seems similar to not knowing / allowing / trust / being / love

Lots of love and wishing you the best

Tom

[ankitawho]

Hi Tom,

It is wonderful you see this.

Can you say with 100% confidence now that there is no self?

Love,
Ankita

[inexternal]

Hi Ankita,

Can you say with 100% confidence now that there is no self?

If we could define self by:

an entity that exists separate to what is happening
a sense of ownership of experience
the desire to change what is arising

There is just what is arising. no self and self both arise.

Let me know your thoughts :)

Tom <3

[inexternal]

Hi Ankita,

Can you say with 100% confidence now that there is no self?

If we could define self by:

an entity that exists separate to what is happening
a sense of ownership of experience
the desire to change what is arising

There is just what is arising. no self and self both arise.

Let me know your thoughts :)

Tom <3

[inexternal]

Hi Ankita,

Can you say with 100% confidence now that there is no self?

If we could define self by:

an entity that exists separate to what is happening
a sense of ownership of experience
the desire to change what is arising

There is just what is arising. no self and self both arise.

Let me know your thoughts :)

Tom <3

[inexternal]

Oops looks like I have sent this about 4 times on accident xD

[ankitawho]

Hi Tom,

I missed your questions earlier:

what is the gateless gate?

When reality is seen for what it is, it is found that there is no one. Never was and never will be. Passing through the gate is this seeing, and then looking back to see there was never any gate, never anyone to pass the gate, never any distance to pass. This happening was always just this.

Can you say from direct experience that you see this, fully and confidently? :o)

I am wondering if the overuse of intellect to navigate life leads to a perceived disconnect, what do you think?

Indeed, the mind has worked really hard, hasn't it? :) It may begin to rest a little easy when it sees for itself that it is safe to take the hands off the illusory steering wheel.

There is just what is arising. no self and self both arise.
Let me know your thoughts :)

How beautifully said!
Just to double check -- from direct experience, do you SEE this?

If you are confident, can we go to the final questions? :)

Love,
Ankita

[inexternal]

Hi Ankita,

Can you say from direct experience that you see this, fully and confidently? :o)

Yes i see this (:

Indeed, the mind has worked really hard, hasn't it? :) It may begin to rest a little easy when it sees for itself that it is safe to take the hands off the illusory steering wheel.

Haha quite xD.

Just to double check -- from direct experience, do you SEE this?

I see how the idea of a self is constructed. I see that there is no one typing this, it is just happening. But even seeing that no one is typing is an addition to seeing.

If you are confident, can we go to the final questions? :)

Yeah lets do it ! :)

Love,
Tom

[ankitawho]

Hi Tom,

:) This is wonderful.

Here are the final questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving,
Ankita

[inexternal]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No and No.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of the separate self seems to arise when one assumes they are separate from what is happening. Looking at how this illusion starts, it disappears.
Therefore we can say that it may arise when you are not actually looking.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels liberating because it goes beyond doubt or a doubter. This dialogue has been so amazing because it allows wonderful people like you to show me where there is additional noise and where to push deeper.
The key difference is distinguishing with certainty what is being directly experienced and what is being constructed. There is less interpreting of experience through thought although it can happen.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I have always been looking. The bit that made me look was when i recorded notes of the exact same experience, one using 'i' and one without. This resulted in 2 very different experiences of the same thing, which can't be true but is true.
This really confirmed, by itself, that a seemingly different experience can arise when it is not actually looked at.
that

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is when one is presented with various options and one seemingly makes a choice. example 'I' made the decision today to have risotto for dinner instead of pizza

Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Intention is a movement towards a specific outcome. example I intend on living a life filled with kindness

Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Free will is the ability to act of one's own accord. example I am now waving my arms about

Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Choice is the ability to make a decision from a variety of options. example I had the choice between risotto or pizza

Describe control & give examples from experience.
Control is the managing of inputs to lead to a specific outcome. example I am controlling my coffee intake. The desired outcome is what seemingly gives rise to control.

All of these are just concepts and imply a separate sense of self that can manipulate experience - although the fact that you can manipulate experience still seemingly arise.

What makes things happen? How does it work?
I don't know they just happen.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I am not responsible for anything. Responsibility implies control which implies things are not just spontaneously arising.

6) Anything to add?
I would like to express my gratitude to you for guiding me with this you are AWESOME <3

Tom

[ankitawho]

Tom,

Thank you for your beautiful answers. It is evident that you SEE.
It has been such a pleasure to walk with you. <3 You came here needing just a gentle push and clarity unfolded.

This was my first time "guiding" -- or more preferably, just walking beside someone through the gateless gate too. Our conversation was supervised by a guide who has been doing so for several years, so I'd like to thank Stacy here as well.

LU has a facebook group for aftercare, where you can connect with others who have also just passed through the gate, if you like. You will soon receive a private message with this and other relevant information. Apart from that, your username will now change from green to blue, and our thread will be moved to "Archives" and will be accessible from there.

This is simply the beginning. Please keep SEEING. :o)

To deepen your understanding or as a way of giving back, you may look into being a guide yourself.

I will send you my contact details if you'd like to stay in touch or ever need to drop me a note x

Love,
Ankita