Breaking through the sense of self

[atmajnani]

Hi Conny,

I actually do have an anchor like that. I'm putting my attention into attention. Maybe that's to abstract and I should use the breath instead?

It's better to put your attention in any part of the body to ground you. If you put attention into attention you are putting attention in thoughts and that keeps you trapped in your mind:-)
Put attention in your breath or body sensations (where do you feel contraction or expansion?). I personally like to put my attention in the heart (chest) and breath deep, feeling gratitude or love for the beautiful things in life. That expands the chest and releases stress.

It seems that the only thing that really works for me is to let the anxiety be or to go into it when I'm in a place to do so.

That's a good method, I think it's the basis of somatic therapy. When you allow anxiety to be it's important to note where it is causing contraction in the body and then breath deep 'as if through' that area until contraction dissolves. Your vagus nerve must be unbalanced and deep breathing is quite effective to calm down the nervous system. In addition, singing, humming, chanting and gargling also increase the vagus nerve tone (re-balancing it).

What I've noticed is that the more I just drop into the sensations the more the boundaries dissolve...I can only describe it as a mix of despair, hopelessness, guilt, shame and just a big NO! to everything. I know that feeling from childhood, I just forgot about it. When it came up now I laid down and just let it take over. And I can't really describe what happened then. I can only say there where definitely no more boundaries anywhere... Do you think the body needs to get used to the falling away of the perceived boundaries as well?

Everyone has childhood trauma, some more severe than others, you are not alone! And when we grow up we develop a ego that hides that trauma in the subconscious mind as a coping mechanism to live in society. When we start 'awakening' we are basically dissolving the Ego, layer by layer, and trauma comes back to 'the surface' to be released! Basically, you are becoming more conscious of all the good and bad stuff stored in your subconscious mind. Your approach to just let it be and breath deeply is the good one to release it. Remember that your trauma didn't kill you as a child and now won't kill you either, it's just memories stored in your subconscious mind that you are happy to release. If you don't identify with (cling to) those memories (that's why it's important to have an anchor as the breath), the release will be faster and effective.
When a shift in your perception happens (an awakening shift), your body takes a little longer to integrate it (body is denser than mind). The loss of the perception of body boundaries that you are experiencing is one of the awakening shifts. You no longer identify with your body, although your body exists and can be seen, touched, smelled, etc. Some people also start to see everything a bit more flat, as 2D. Check this video explaining how to inquiry this fetter/belief, between 52:00 and 55:00 they also speak of trauma resurfacing when this fetter falls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAROq9f ... 2d&index=2

Let me know if this belief of boundaries (fetter 6) has fully fallen, you might need a break from inquiry to integrate the shift and later return to inquiry the no-self (fetter 1-3) and reactivity (fetters 4-5).

But what happens here is that there seems to be a choice to either resist them (sensations) which makes for example contraction worse or to let them be as they are and then it disappears quickly... and here's where there seems to be a 'me' that is making this choice!

Look closer at what you mean with 'a choice to resist a contraction which makes it worse', that you interpreted as a 'me' making choices. When you resist what is already here (a contraction) isn't just thoughts saying 'I don't want to feel this contraction' ? And thoughts intensify sensations because the mind and body are interconnected. But can you find a 'Me' in actual experience choosing thoughts?

It's almost like watching a movie. I don't believe that the movie is real either it's just entertaining to watch it. I think this is the problem that I have with thoughts. They are so entertaining. More so than the actual experience of what is happening here.

Again, the antidote for overthinking is breathing deep, walks in nature, grounding activities.

After I had this intense oneness experience I didn't really have thoughts like this for a week or two. There where practical thoughts ... I can even remember when it started again and since then it got more and more intense.
I don't know what to make of all of this

You had an awakening shift followed by a 'honeymoon' period. The belief of being a subject separate from all objects fell away (fetter 6), but you still kept other beliefs in place such as desire & aversion (fetters 4-5) and identification with a 'Me' made up of thoughts (fetters 1-3) that create a sense of separation and ended your temporary oneness experience. Only dissolving the previous beliefs (fetters 1-5) you will be able to sustain permanently the experience of oneness.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[ConnyS]

Hi Atmajnani,

It's better to put your attention in any part of the body to ground you. If you put attention into attention you are putting attention in thoughts and that keeps you trapped in your mind:-)
Put attention in your breath or body sensations (where do you feel contraction or expansion?). I personally like to put my attention in the heart (chest) and breath deep, feeling gratitude or love for the beautiful things in life. That expands the chest and releases stress.

Ah yes, that makes sense of course :) I'm going to do that.
Yes, the anxiety is mostly in the chest for me. After a while of putting the attention there it moves into the throat and sometimes it's like a wave spreading into the gut as well. I'll keep doing that. I never learned how to feel emotions. It's only in the last six years that I'm practicing that so it makes sense that there's a lot of unresolved trauma in the body :)

Your vagus nerve must be unbalanced and deep breathing is quite effective to calm down the nervous system. In addition, singing, humming, chanting and gargling also increase the vagus nerve tone (re-balancing it).

Yes, I've heard about that. Those are great tips. Thank you so much. I just started to get back into Yin Yoga and Yoga nidra. I guess this is going to help the nervous system and the vagus nerve too.
Yoga nidra helped me a lot to actually connect with the body in a deeper way and since then everything that comes up is so heavily connected with the body. I was quite surprised that the grief that I've felt for my cat showed up in such a physical way. The last six months the body is in a lot of pain and I'm assuming it has a lot to do with the stored emotions because I always had a lot of back pain but with my awakening it was immediately gone and now it's even worse than before. But I'm also starting physical therapy now as well and working with an orthopedist just in case.. :)

Remember that your trauma didn't kill you as a child and now won't kill you either, it's just memories stored in your subconscious mind that you are happy to release. If you don't identify with (cling to) those memories (that's why it's important to have an anchor as the breath), the release will be faster and effective.

Yes, that was one of the profound realizations that I had during my awakening. I suddenly could see so clearly that none of this ever touched me and since then the identification with the trauma is gone. I'm just very gentle with the body and the mind because these experiences were very intense and they need a lot of care now :)
Even though it's heavy and uncomfortable what comes up there's now a part of me that is looking at it with a smirk on their face. That's the best way I can describe it. What happened is not that serious anymore and that helps a lot while going through it. I'm VERY thankful for that.

When a shift in your perception happens (an awakening shift), your body takes a little longer to integrate it (body is denser than mind). The loss of the perception of body boundaries that you are experiencing is one of the awakening shifts. You no longer identify with your body, although your body exists and can be seen, touched, smelled, etc. Some people also start to see everything a bit more flat, as 2D. Check this video explaining how to inquiry this fetter/belief, between 52:00 and 55:00 they also speak of trauma resurfacing when this fetter falls:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAROq9f ... 2d&index=2

Ah okay, that makes sense.
I've heard Angelo talk about this. There's sometimes something weird going on with my vision but I can't describe it and I'm not sure if it's what he means by 2D. It happens often in open spaces. That's where it can get a little bit overwhelming because there's so much space all of the sudden and it's like I am that space and just watching the body.. from nowhere ..or everywhere.. I don't know. Especially looking at the sky triggers that.
I guess that's because the other fetters are still there and now I'm still believing in a me but I'm also everything and that's really weird :D
Thanks for searching up that video! It's great that they also talk about therapy. I thought I could do it alone and that awakening is going to take care of that. Haha!! :D Now I'm in therapy since 2021 :D

Let me know if this belief of boundaries (fetter 6) has fully fallen, you might need a break from inquiry to integrate the shift and later return to inquiry the no-self (fetter 1-3) and reactivity (fetters 4-5).

Okay I'll let you know.

Look closer at what you mean with 'a choice to resist a contraction which makes it worse', that you interpreted as a 'me' making choices. When you resist what is already here (a contraction) isn't just thoughts saying 'I don't want to feel this contraction' ? And thoughts intensify sensations because the mind and body are interconnected. But can you find a 'Me' in actual experience choosing thoughts?

You're right! That's true.. I can't find a me that is choosing that. But I'll inquire into that further the next few days until it is clearer. Inquiry is now happening a lot during the day. This was always a struggle but now it's happening constantly.

You had an awakening shift followed by a 'honeymoon' period. The belief of being a subject separate from all objects fell away (fetter 6), but you still kept other beliefs in place such as desire & aversion (fetters 4-5) and identification with a 'Me' made up of thoughts (fetters 1-3) that create a sense of separation and ended your temporary oneness experience. Only dissolving the previous beliefs (fetters 1-5) you will be able to sustain permanently the experience of oneness.

That makes so much sense. Thank you so much for all the helpful information!

Much love,

Conny

[atmajnani]

Hi Conny,

Yes, the anxiety is mostly in the chest for me. After a while of putting the attention there it moves into the throat and sometimes it's like a wave spreading into the gut as well. I'll keep doing that.

This reminds me the inquiry into reactivity, but before we start that you have to inquire the belief that there is a Owner of thoughts, choices, decisions, free-will... only then you enter the gate at LU.

My advice is that you write to me the thoughts/situations were you really believe there is a 'separate Me' creating thoughts, making choices and decisions, with free will, etc. then we can analyse it in more detail.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[ConnyS]

Hi Atmajnani,

My advice is that you write to me the thoughts/situations were you really believe there is a 'separate Me' creating thoughts, making choices and decisions, with free will, etc. then we can analyse it in more detail.

Yesterday evening I was going through all the situations where I believe that this is happening to me. And all of the sudden everything just crumbled and it was seen that all of this is just a thought. The mind was still going after that but it was clear that it's just thought.
There where thoughts coming up like "I'll loose my relationships", "I'm just making all of this up because it doesn't feel different" or "I'll loose that clarity again if I don't do xyz" but even that are just thoughts.
Today I sometimes have my attention on thought for a minute or so and then it's seen again that's it's just a thought. So right now I don't know how to answer your question because I can't find a seperate me at all and everything is just seen as thought.

Much love,

Conny

[atmajnani]

Hi Conny,

Maybe you are loosing the bigger picture.
There are thoughts passing through as clouds, but there is no Ownership of those thoughts.
That's the insight you need to find for yourself!

Some thoughts instill fear. Other thoughts are needed to do calculations or a project plan, for instance.
But the Owner of thoughts doesn't exist, never existed!
How can something that never existed die? It was always just an illusion.
Your body-mind is real, but there is no Ownership inside. Find the truth of this.
And nothing outside will change when you realize that...:-)

See that “I” is just a thought that comes after the experience, action, and grabs the experience and creates an owner, an imaginary owner—“I” breathe. I breathe? Well, when you are asleep do you do breathing or is it just breathing happening?There is no control, life just happens, experience happens. It’s just that somehow, somewhere along the line, something assumed ownership of intent and outcome.

For instance, when you get up and go to your wardrobe to 'choose' the clothes to dress, do you have free will in the 'choice'? Doesn't the choice just happens in alignment with all the circumstances of the experience? If it's cold or hot outside, if it's raining or snowing, if you are going out with your friends or boyfriend, or if you are going to the office to work. It also depends on which clothes are available in your wardrobe at that moment and your conditioned preferences of colors, style, etc.

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[ConnyS]

Hi Atmajnani,

Maybe you are loosing the bigger picture.
There are thoughts passing through as clouds, but there is no Ownership of those thoughts.
That's the insight you need to find for yourself!

yeah I think I didn't even explain it very well :D it was almost like a detachment from thought. They were still going but didn't belong to me. They were just passing through and I didn't got stuck in the content of it. After a day it went back to normal. Yesterday while I was doing my new yoga routine my body felt really empty but also not empty at all. It was really strange so it's difficult to put it into words because empty doesn't feel right either but that's the best way I can describe it. It was very clear that there's no one IN the body and the solidity wasn't there. Which is what I still have even though it's clear that this isn't the case. I would say it energetically feels like the body is solid and there's someone in it but yesterday that stopped completely for a few minutes.

Some thoughts instill fear. Other thoughts are needed to do calculations or a project plan, for instance.
But the Owner of thoughts doesn't exist, never existed!
How can something that never existed die? It was always just an illusion.
Your body-mind is real, but there is no Ownership inside. Find the truth of this.
And nothing outside will change when you realize that...:-)

I'm trying :D
There's also a change that has happened with my anxiety which is very interesting. But I'm not sure if it's related to this.
Now when there's anxiety coming up I can see clearly the first thought that appears which is usually something like "there's something wrong with the body" which would usually end up in a bunch of thoughts coming up what might be wrong. Now that it is seen it disappears very quickly and then the thoughts go on as usual while the body has a fear response. But even my mood isn't affected by it all. I can literally sit and be happy with a smile on my face while the body experiences fear. So there's no resistance to it and therefore there's no suffering during it. This very nice and I thought I would mention it :)

Well, when you are asleep do you do breathing or is it just breathing happening?There is no control, life just happens, experience happens. It’s just that somehow, somewhere along the line, something assumed ownership of intent and outcome.

Yes I can see that. Even when I'm awake there's no one breathing. The body does it completely by itself.

For instance, when you get up and go to your wardrobe to 'choose' the clothes to dress, do you have free will in the 'choice'? Doesn't the choice just happens in alignment with all the circumstances of the experience? If it's cold or hot outside, if it's raining or snowing, if you are going out with your friends or boyfriend, or if you are going to the office to work. It also depends on which clothes are available in your wardrobe at that moment and your conditioned preferences of colors, style, etc.

Yes, the choice is made but there's no one doing it.
I can see these things very clearly but it seems somewhere along the line it trips me up and there's a believe in a me that I can't see yet which is why the fetters haven't fallen yet. I'm going to investigate that further :)

Much love,

Conny

[atmajnani]

Hi Conny,

Yesterday while I was doing my new yoga routine my body felt really empty but also not empty at all. It was really strange so it's difficult to put it into words because empty doesn't feel right either but that's the best way I can describe it. It was very clear that there's no one IN the body and the solidity wasn't there... Now when there's anxiety coming up I can see clearly the first thought that appears...Now that it is seen it disappears very quickly...But even my mood isn't affected by it all. I can literally sit and be happy with a smile on my face while the body experiences fear. So there's no resistance to it and therefore there's no suffering during it.

It sounds like you experienced a 'no-self' awakening shift followed by a 'honeymoon' phase of inner peace. Let it sink in.
Don't attach expectations to the experience, just allow it to be.

I can see these things very clearly but it seems somewhere along the line it trips me up and there's a believe in a 'me' that I can't see yet which is why the fetters haven't fallen yet

Be careful to avoid clinging to expectations and outcomes of awakening.
Everything happens in the right time, every process requires ripeness.

We can make an assessment to check where is that illusion of a Self:
i) do you feel 'there's a separate Conny made of memories of past events, family, name, address, etc' ?
ii) do you feel 'there's a separate Conny making choices and choosing whether or not to perform an action' ?
iii) do you feel 'there's a separate Conny perceiving others perceiving you', a social identity?
iv) do you feel 'there's a separate Conny that is that body' ?
v) do you feel 'there's a separate Conny that is an entity looking out from behind your eyes, located somewhere in the middle of your head' ?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[atmajnani]

cont.
Where you read 'separate Conny' replace by 'independent entity', maybe it's easier to understand.

[ConnyS]

Hi Atmajnani,

Be careful to avoid clinging to expectations and outcomes of awakening.
Everything happens in the right time, every process requires ripeness.

Yes, thank you. I think because my first awakening was such a mindblowing experience there's still a little bit of expectation that it will be like that again :)

do you feel 'there's a separate Conny made of memories of past events, family, name, address, etc' ?

Right now, No. But it happens when there's anger coming up or when it feels like I'm being treated unfair. Then it can feel like that there's a me that wants to do something to change that experience.

do you feel 'there's a separate Conny making choices and choosing whether or not to perform an action' ?

Most of the time no. It feels like I'm watching the body moving and doing stuff but in cases like the anger arising it feels like a seperate entity. Also when something really upsets my nervous system. Being alone with fear is now different but when I'm around people and my nervous system feels threatened then it feels like I'm a seperate entity again.

do you feel 'there's a separate Conny perceiving others perceiving you', a social identity?

Yes, when there are other people around I definitely feel like a seperate person. It happened only a few times that this faded a little bit but the body doesn't feel safe most of the time with people around so that could be a reason why this is such a challenge here.

do you feel 'there's a separate Conny that is that body' ?
do you feel 'there's a separate Conny that is an entity looking out from behind your eyes, located somewhere in the middle of your head' ?

Not exactly. It feels like the story of Conny is attached to that body but that's not me and I'm the one observing that body. Right now the body feels more dense again but it's like it lost a little bit of the solidity. It's like the skin is not the boundary and the body just feels lighter and not as tight.
I can't find a me that is located behind the eyes. I know that it felt like that before but now it feels more empty. There's looking through the eyes but I can't say that it feels like a me. More like a spaciousness.

Much love,

Conny

[atmajnani]

Hi Conny,

I think because my first awakening was such a mind-blowing experience there's still a little bit of expectation that it will be like that again :)

You have to drop all expectations dear. Each shift will be different!
I had a similar shift of loving-acceptance-oneness 7 years ago that lasted for ca. 1,7 years and then reactivity returned!
Last year I had a no-self awakening shift where I felt an empty shell, totally different from my previous experience but mind-blowing anyway. Expectations create a 'lack feeling' that retards your progress, I can tell you from my own experience.

But it happens when there's anger coming up or when it feels like I'm being treated unfair. Then it can feel like that there's a me that wants to do something to change that experience....when there are other people around I definitely feel like a separate person. It happened only a few times that this faded a little bit but the body doesn't feel safe most of the time with people around so that could be a reason why this is such a challenge here.

That is reactivity (fetters 4/5), the wants and not wants in life that create that push and pull with other people.
Let me ask other guides if there are more questions before passing you through the Gate, so that we can start inquiring into reactivity.
Warmly,
Atmjnani

[atmajnani]

Hi again,

Hi again,

Here are the final questions that I need you to answer (some are repeated from the dialogue, copy past if needed) to ask my fellow guides for confirmation or further questions:

1) Is there an independent entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of an independent self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you absolutely responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Warmly,
Atmajnani

[ConnyS]

Hi Atmajnani,

That is reactivity (fetters 4/5), the wants and not wants in life that create that push and pull with other people.
Let me ask other guides if there are more questions before passing you through the Gate, so that we can start inquiring into reactivity.

Okay great :)

1) Is there an independent entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there was never an independent entity. There was just a false identification with thought, emotions and the body which created the illusion of a me.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of an independent self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion starts when there's a belief in the thoughts and identification with them that say "I'm this body, these emotions. Things are happening to me and I need to act to change it because I don't like what happens". This creates the illusion of a me that is in the body and therefore it feels like the skin of the body is the boundary. It makes it seem like that "I" the independent self can make decisions and move through life according to my own will.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Now everything is less serious and it's not at all personal. There's only a spaciousness that is looking through the eyes and experiencing the sensations of the body. It doesn't seem like that there's a solid thing called a me behind the eyes which was the case before I started the dialogue. Now it is seen that was never actually the case.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It was the constant looking where and what this me is that seemed to sit behind the eyes. There was a lot of inquiry happening the last few days and the clear seeing that all of the stories that the mind is telling are just thoughts passing through without someone thinking them. They are just appearances like everything else. Once this was clear the independent entity was just seen to be an illusion.

5) Describe decision, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you absolutely responsible for? Give examples from experience.

The concept of free will doesn't really makes sense now because for that there needs to be a someone who can make decisions based on free will. But since there's no independent entity the whole thing just doesn't make sense. Choices appear based on circumstances and the conditioning of the body and mind.
This body and mind is conditioned to make healthier choices when it comes to food and because of the circumstance of food allergies certain foods are avoided but there's no one who makes that choice. It just happens and there's a spaciousness that is aware of these things. Now there's no identification with the thought that appears that claims to have made that choice. It's just another appearance like everything else.
In social situations there would be a taking of responsibility when this body/mind has done something that has hurt another body/mind but there's a clear seeing that there is no one who actually made these decisions and it was just an action based on the conditioning and the circumstances.

Much love,

Conny

[atmajnani]

Hi Conny,

Congratulations, you have passed the Gate and are now invited to deepen inquiry at the Unleashed forum. Check for a pm from Nerina Vaughn (our admin) at the top right with instructions how to proceed.

Love,
Atmajnani