What the heck am I

[AwayKen127]

Mark, your insight is very deep. You can absolutely trust what you have seen. Although I'm tempted to comment, I don't want to add any concepts, and that is what I'd be doing. Instead, I offer you encouragement. Keep going and let me know how it goes! Bravo!
Jeff

[RoloTomassi]

It's funny you mention trust, that's kind of what I woke up with in my thoughts this morning. Just trust wherever my instincts are taking me. I still get the feeling I should be "doing something" though. I will say though that each day since we started chatting, I have felt less overall tension, fear and anxiety. Today I had this thought that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the "ego" or it's strategies. Of all the infinite strategies it comes up with, I realized they all have one common goal: to find fulfillment. They may be misguided or ignorant attempts, but the core intention is the same. The mind has just been trying to find happiness, even when it is contradicting itself. Even resistance and "unpleasant" sensations in the body, are just the mind trying it's best to try to "fix" things. For the first time, I looked at the mind and "ego" as a friend instead of an enemy or something to be gotten rid of or destroyed. It's always just doing the best it can with the limited past information that it has. It could not do otherwise. This was in my mind all day today, and I felt more relaxed and at peace than I probably have in quite some time. It's like my mind stopped struggling with itself when it was recognized that every strategy is out of a pure intention for happiness. Nothing wrong with that at all. Then it made sense, trying to transcend or destroy the "ego", IS ego. And that is also just another attempt to find fulfillment, and that is ok too. It's actually quite beautiful in a way. The mind and body should be thanked for all the hard effort it puts in trying to figure out this world and bring about peace. It might be lost, but it's doing the best it can.

I have continued doing the "Holding An Object Exercise" and I notice that the feeling or sense of non-locality of the sensations comes on faster and "easier" each time I do it. When I did it today, it actually felt really relaxing while doing it. The mind certainly seemed "quieter", perhaps that is why it seemed easier. Do you have any other suggestions?

[AwayKen127]

Hi Mark,
I love reading what you're writing. The ego has good intentions, but it is misled. It assumes there's a better place to get to. This video addresses the issue.

https://youtu.be/GdzPp9cRKN0

Is there a better place to get to? Is it possible to be in another place than right here, right now? In other words, can experience be different than it is?

The Holding An Object Exercise is just a version of natural meditation or shikantaza. It is perfect for investigating these questions and for experience to be seen as it is. (Sorry for the awkwardness of the words; there’s no way to talk about this.)

[RoloTomassi]

I love reading what you're writing. The ego has good intentions, but it is misled. It assumes there's a better place to get to. This video addresses the issue.

https://youtu.be/GdzPp9cRKN0

Jeff, thank you, that means a lot. That crazy, I just watched this video like 2 weeks ago. I had never watched any Gangaji before, and decided to finally look her up after her being mentioned several times in other videos. I had heard of her many times, but never looked her up. I just watched a couple of her videos and this was one of them. I watched it a couple times today and it felt different this time for some reason. I was drinking some coffee while my son was playing near by, and I just realized, what needs to change? Even if I had more money, more knowledge, more stuff, blah blah blah, it would still just be this...my son playing, sipping coffee, eating, working, talking with people, walking in the rain, stubbing my toe. Even if I was "enlightened", it's still just a collage or colors, sensations, sounds, smells, tastes, and thoughts. The same raw materials, no different. So why do I feel it would be different? What would be different? I guess the difference is that I could just STOP trying to turn it all into something else different right now.

Is there a better place to get to? Is it possible to be in another place than right here, right now? In other words, can experience be different than it is?

There is no other place to get to. I am in the middle of a potential move to the beach for a new job opportunity that came out of nowhere after I left my old job. Even if we decide to move, it's still the same stuff, just in different configurations. I guess the only "difference" is in the stories and interpretations of it all. I mean how can there be a difference without a story saying there is a difference. There is no way to be in another place than right here. It is literally always "right here". Even if we move, for example, it will only be experienced "right here". It is never experienced "over there", or in another time. It cannot be any different, at least not in my experience. The only place it can seem different, is in a conceptual world that I build and "inhabit"

Man, I don't know what to say Jeff. This is all in a way, making more and more "sense" than it did in the past. But still, seems like "dream stuff". I really don't know where I stand anymore. Today I had a brief moment while cleaning up my son's mess, where I realized, whenever "I" am here, there is experience, whenever "I" am not here (deep sleep, before birth, etc), there is no experience. "I" can never experience itself separate from the experience. They are intrinsically tied together. Two sides of the same coin. How can I say that anything exists at all, without the experiencing of it. I can't. I never could. All that has ever been for "me", is THIS. I have never experienced anything outside of THIS. How do I know there is anything outside of THIS? I can't know. This is ALL that I can KNOW there is. Literally. I feel like I am going crazy! LOL =) It is truly feeling more and more like I am Neo in The Matrix. HAHA. I feel like I am wedged or stuck in some kind of hole, doorway, or portal or something, just ready to be sucked in. Or out I don't know LOL

[AwayKen127]

Literally. I feel like I am going crazy![ /quote]
Actually, you are going sane. You are shining forth deep insight, and I am thrilled to see it. Continue with what you're doing. When you're doing the Holding an Object Exercise and the spacial location of sensations has become indefinite, try opening your eyes a little bit and be in the direct experience.

[RoloTomassi]

Thank you Jeff, I will continue the exercise as you suggest.

I get the feeling of being in a space where all that is left is simply for the conditioning that keeps trying to point to the existence of a "self" to run itself out. I feel like it is just existing on it's past momentum. In other words, it's being fed less and less fuel to sustain its movement forward. Hard to explain. I also took some time to reflect back today on all of the "teachings" and "teachers" that I resonated with. I questioned why I resonated with some and not others. Why is that? Then it seemed actually quite clear that we resonate with what hasn't been confronted or "seen" yet. And that resonance only comes when the time is right and when we are ready. When something is ready to be confronted and looked at. Then once it's been looked at, the resonance seems to subside. Again hard to explain but it just seemed obvious.

It also quite apparent that the daily attempt to escape and run to something better is less every day. This is a very recent experience for me. Right now I am going through a period with job and career that in the past would have left me in guilt, strain, stress, overwhelm, anxiety, anger, resignation and avoidance. There is definitely some fear and future projecting, but it is so much less, it is amazing. Things just seem lighter. I may not be experiencing any huge "shifts" or anything, but it seems obvious that things are different. Reactivity is nowhere near what it was overall. And it's strange and wonderful that it doesn't even feel anymore like I am "doing" anything to make that happen. It actually feels the opposite, like I have stopped "doing". I don't know. I noticed I have even stopped trying to "let go of attachments". Like I am letting go of the attempt to let go. I don't even understand how that came about LOL.

[AwayKen127]

It also quite apparent that the daily attempt to escape and run to something better is less every day. This is a very recent experience for me. Right now I am going through a period with job and career that in the past would have left me in guilt, strain, stress, overwhelm, anxiety, anger, resignation and avoidance. There is definitely some fear and future projecting, but it is so much less, it is amazing. Things just seem lighter. I may not be experiencing any huge "shifts" or anything, but it seems obvious that things are different. Reactivity is nowhere near what it was overall. And it's strange and wonderful that it doesn't even feel anymore like I am "doing" anything to make that happen. It actually feels the opposite, like I have stopped "doing". I don't know. I noticed I have even stopped trying to "let go of attachments". Like I am letting go of the attempt to let go. I don't even understand how that came about LOL.

That was my experience as well. I just noticed one day that my anxiety, suffering, PTSD, and introversion were gone, and reactivity greatly diminished a bit later, but there was no "shift". My current understanding is that we're making FREEDOM possible. Freedom from the separate self that needs to be protected and defended (even its reputation and possessions need to be protected and defended!), that will have a dismal "future" if the right "decisions" are not made, that regrets its "past"; freedom from obsessive thoughts that create and that are suffering, freedom from craving and aversion, freedom from wanting to escape and run to something better. And after that, there is even more freedom to be found! This happens after awakening. Mystical experiences may not be part of the package and are beside the point.

I'm delighted to hear about these developments, Mark!

[RoloTomassi]

Wow! Jeff thank you so much for this. It feels good to know that people have had a similar experience. You always see so much about sudden and powerful awakenings or even just glimpses. Then you feel like "well I haven't had anything like that, why not?". It's good to know those things don't need to be waited or anticipated for. I don't know if you ever heard of Paul Hedderman or or not, but there was a period where I watched a lot of his videos. He always used to say that you get to a point where you just feel and realize that you are "traveling lighter" for some reason, as he calls it. I of course sort of understood what he meant, but only recently do I really feel that I am actually starting to experience that first hand. And like he mentioned, it seemed to just start happening, there really wasn't a defining event or anything. Things just feel a little "lighter".

[AwayKen127]

Hi Mark,
I'm delighted to hear about your insights. Let's return again to the question, "What cannot be thought about, even in principle?" We established that experience as it presents itself cannot be thought about. What do you SEE about the connection between experience and thought?

Have you tried opening your eyes during the Holding an Object Exercise?

Reminder: Vince's Zoom call is this Sunday at 11 am PST.

[RoloTomassi]

What do you SEE about the connection between experience and thought?

To me thought is just a reflection of "what is". Meaning I can think in words(sounds), images, tastes and sensations. It basically just seems to reflect the sense gates. With that it seems to create it's own version of the world on top of the actual world. I hope that makes sense. Also I see that thought is just something else that is experienced, just like sights, sounds, tastes, sensations, etc.

Have you tried opening your eyes during the Holding an Object Exercise?

I have tried opening my eyes during the exercise. I can't say anything really different other than I still feel like the visual objects and the sensations seem to blend at times. Usually briefly.

I will mention that today was a bit of a different day. For some reason it just struck me that I don't HAVE to follow the "rabbit holes" that the mind is constantly offering at almost every moment. This has of course been heard thousands of times and it's easy to understand, but today it felt more like it is an actual option. I was able to see almost every attempt of the mind trying to draw into a narrative. Of course almost always a negative one, but even "positive" or "neutral" ones. Then when I wouldn't take the bait, I would watch as the mind tried to use the bodily sensations to drum up fear. Then that was seen and awareness again arose that it doesn't NEED to be followed. Then I saw that it is like a mischievous child always doing things behind it's parent back, without the parent noticing. Then as soon as it was REALLY looked at and seen, it would immediately stop the behavior. Then it would wait a moment for the opportunity to do it again. When this was noticed over and over, things began to get very quiet. It was quite relaxing. It came to me, that this structure requires constant energy in the form of attention. Once that attention was removed, it powered down. Now it makes sense to me why people say this is an energetic process. It's not about finding or making more energy, its more about just not getting wasted in the mind games. This seemed to free up a lot of energy, even if just for a couple hours.

[AwayKen127]

Mark, that is really a fabulous description of the mind and its antics! A thoroughly enjoyable read, especially the part likening it to a kid who sneaks behind its parents' backs! It's great to hear you say you don't HAVE to be taken in.

Jeff

[RoloTomassi]

Mark, that is really a fabulous description of the mind and its antics! A thoroughly enjoyable read, especially the part likening it to a kid who sneaks behind its parents' backs! It's great to hear you say you don't HAVE to be taken in.

Thank you Jeff! Yeah it's kind of strange, I just don't feel as much pull towards the stories at the moment. I see that everything has just been a "new" story, but always constructed from the same memories and labels. I knew something was different because even when fearful stories came up in the mind about my son and his future, I didn't follow them. Then there was this calming sense of "Just leave him for God to take care. He will be in much better hands than in "mine"." Then I thought, he has only ever been in God's hands, it just hasn't been recognized until now. Just a little sense of relief, that I am not responsible for this "world".

I woke up this morning and realized when I look at a dog, I am not seeing it as it actually is. I am seeing the memories, labels and concept "dog". Then there are thoughts that build a structure and story around that object. So yes, thought can only ever reference other thought. Like if I woke up tomorrow with absolutely no memory of the "past", including all language, I don't think there could be any thought. There would be no structure to reference anything. The world would literally be brand new. Like being born. Maybe this is what people have tried to refer to when saying they were "born again".

[AwayKen127]

"Just leave him for God to take care. He will be in much better hands than in "mine"." Then I thought, he has only ever been in God's hands, it just hasn't been recognized until now. Just a little sense of relief, that I am not responsible for this "world".

This is a beautiful way to say it. Of course, as words, it's conceptual. What does it FEEL like, knowing that your son is and has always been in God's hands? Knowing that you can put down that burden which was never yours?

Maybe this is what people have tried to refer to when saying they were "born again".

Or, in Buddhist terms, Beginner's Mind or rebirth. Again, these are concepts. What does it FEEL like to be "born again"?

[AwayKen127]

I woke up this morning and realized when I look at a dog, I am not seeing it as it actually is. I am seeing the memories, labels and concept "dog".

And what does it FEEL like to see the dog without the concepts of "dog", "I", and "seeing"?

[RoloTomassi]

What does it FEEL like, knowing that your son is and has always been in God's hands? Knowing that you can put down that burden which was never yours?

It feels like a sense of relief. Feels like ease and freedom. Very freeing.

What does it FEEL like to be "born again"?
And what does it FEEL like to see the dog without the concepts of "dog", "I", and "seeing"?

I find it hard to answer these two questions. Just the pure experience, it doesn't feel like anything. In that moment there is nothing to really reference what it "feels like". If I had to use concepts, I would again say freedom, but in the moment it doesn't seem to feel like anything because nothing is being referenced. I don't know if that makes sense.