The Gate

Dear Rali
Thank you for the beautiful guidance.

Yes!! Before you start the inquiry, you see mountains and rivers as objects, then during the inquiry you see them for what they truly are without thought content, and at the end of the inquiry, life continues to be the same as before – you still use labels but their true nature is known to be empty of intrinsic meaning.

Aha :)

Yes. The thought “I decided to turn the hand” comes as a description to what is already happening.

Yes!!!
I did this exercise many times... Its shocking really.

It doesn’t have to be a big one – it could be how you decided to buy something.

One decision that was recent and out of the ordinary for me was looking up online what was happening in the city over the weekend and registering for a tree adoption kind of a get-together.

How did it come to be?

This is a new city to me and for the last few weeks there was nothing much to be done over the weekends. Many thoughts came around - how do I make friends, why do I not have friends, am I staying in this room too much, do other people also stay in their rooms this much, where else can i go and would going places change anything, etc. There were also thoughts with "spiritual" content regurgitating things ive heard over time, example: boredom means unsatisfaction with reality so going places doesnt mean anything, the real issue if why do i have a problem with boredom, etc etc etc. A lot of mental chatter.

Before having done the hands exercise and before our conversation, I would have said that the decision to register for the meetup was because of such thoughts. Now I am not so sure.

Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen.

I write this to get these thoughts out, even though this feels laughable now... Perhaps the following could be the conditions:
- Having a lot of free time over the weekends
- Feeling the need for social interaction
- Feeling boredom
- Having an interest in trees

If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

Yes! and no! I dont know! None of the conditions were necessary. None of them were necessarily linked to the outcome.
The funny thing is its not like I was able to attend the tree adoption anyway - I reached there, got very sick (period cramps), threw up and took a ride right back!!!

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence?

All of them...

What was in your control (according to thought)?

Thought would say taking a ride there was in my control. Thought would say registering for the event online was in my control.
There is no evidence that these two decisions were made as a result of thinking about making them.

Here is a video that you might find interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

Watched this after writing this reply to you. Extremely interesting.

Gratitude
Ankita

Hi Ankita
Very good!

Yes! and no! I dont know! None of the conditions were necessary. None of them were necessarily linked to the outcome.
The funny thing is its not like I was able to attend the tree adoption anyway - I reached there, got very sick (period cramps), threw up and took a ride right back!!!

T

hought would say taking a ride there was in my control. Thought would say registering for the event online was in my control.
There is no evidence that these two decisions were made as a result of thinking about making them.

Good! I just wanted an example of a decision that you would normally consider that you’ve made. The point was to look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live” and see that even there there’s no “you” making a decision. It was just one event leading to another, leading to another, with actions based on previous conditioning (trial and error). The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before. Ultimately, as you said, when you check your DE, there is no “I”/entity that makes a decision and there are no causes and effects (just stories). It’s just THIS.

At this point, it will be a good DE exercise to get out for an actual walk in nature and observe interconnectedness. See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses. Hold these questions in mind:
Is there anything that is separate from everything else?
Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought? Is that interdependent movement outside of you? Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?
Is there an owner of being?
Are there others? Is there an “I” in others?
Is there a “you”?

Love
Rali

Hi Rali

look entirely in thought content where cause and effect “live”

The thought “decision is made” is layered on top of other thoughts/beliefs/descriptions of what has happened before.

there are no causes and effects (just stories).

Yes!

See how ALL is moving interdependently, including thinking and the senses.

Yes

Is there anything that is separate from everything else?

There is not.

Is there a border that divides “me” and “my body” from everything else, or is it just a thought?

Just a thought.

Is that interdependent movement outside of you?

What is outside?

Is there an “inside” and an “outside”?

There is not.

Is there an owner of being?

There is not.

Are there others?

😂 No!

Is there an “I” in others?

Nope!!!

Is there a “you”?

No :)

I have actually been doing this exercise naturally everyday while walking outside. Looking at "others" and seeing there's no "them" just like theres no "me". Empty vessels of mud in mud.

Gratitude
Ankita

Hi Ankita
Awesome answers!

I have actually been doing this exercise naturally everyday while walking outside. Looking at "others" and seeing there's no "them" just like theres no "me". Empty vessels of mud in mud.

How is life these days? Is there still seeking? Is there anything else that you want to explore?
Love
Rali

Dear Rali

How is life these days?

Since our conversation there have been a few experiences that may be of note. I did not feel the need to report them earlier because "shiny" experiences might've been a hurdle if anything.
There was a morning when on waking up it felt like with a "pop" sensation I was turned inside out... As if I was a silicon mask (not the most accurate way to describe it) that was turned inside out. There was SO MUCH CLARITY and so naturally and effortlessly. It was obviousness. And it was to "no one". Completely impersonal as we always say when we talk about it in theory. It lasted for maybe a minute haha and then something went "Oh!!! THIS is what they talk about!!! I GOT IT!!!" and with that thought there was another "pop", as if someone just burst this wonderful bubble and it was all back to "normal". The notorious "I" had claimed the experience :)
On several days there has been tremendous lightness. Spirituality no longer feels like a quest where maybe going to a Vipassana will show me "it", or maybe the focus should be on the kundalini path to accelerate "it". This was long due to be dropped and now it feels like it has indeed fully dropped.
The book "A course in miracles" has been very influential to me, and one of the things in it that the ego really loved was that maybe on getting "it" and completely "surrendering", the spirit will take over and "my" actions will be fully dictated by the spirit - there will be no resistance or persistence, no doubt and questioning.
Hehe. Ankita realllllllllly wanted that. The burden of doership weighed really heavy. I am now able to see the very nuanced, subtle flaws in the perception/understanding of this claim of the book. As you once pointed out, I indeed was looking to trade this I for a grander, larger I - the awareness/spirit.
In day to day life however there is still a lot of selfing (which is ok), but now it takes one reminder to "see" and check within to calm all of it.

Is there still seeking?

There is not.
Well.......maybe there is some seeking to abide in no-self for longer/always.

Is there anything else that you want to explore?

If it's okay, I would love to explore physical pain.
There is nothing that activates the selfing more aggressively than physical pain - and it might be the only thing activating the selfing at all for now. In the introduction questions, I mentioned an ache in the scalp area and here is the "story" the self has attributed to it: It happens when thinking activity is going on, and leads to concerning hairfall, which leads to more thinking activity and so its a loop.
In Direct Experience (which is not to say that there is Indirect Experience...), I see it as simply a "sensation". On doing so, the sensation almost increases 5x in intensity... It has never worked to "ask" it what it is as many meditations suggest. You asked if there's still seeking - there is definitely still seeking to "get rid" of it when it arises. It is too overwhelming to be fully sat with in DE. Any suggestions?

Gratitude
Ankita

Hi Ankita
Great!!! I loved reading your answers

There is not.
Well.......maybe there is some seeking to abide in no-self for longer/always.

Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought? What does forget and get caught doing things? What abides in no-self? What identifies with thoughts?
How is it possible to "maintain" something when there is only the present? Present moment is just one present moment, and has anything to do with a duration of a certain state.

If it's okay, I would love to explore physical pain.
There is nothing that activates the selfing more aggressively than physical pain - and it might be the only thing activating the selfing at all for now. In the introduction questions, I mentioned an ache in the scalp area and here is the "story" the self has attributed to it: It happens when thinking activity is going on, and leads to concerning hairfall, which leads to more thinking activity and so its a loop.
In Direct Experience (which is not to say that there is Indirect Experience...), I see it as simply a "sensation". On doing so, the sensation almost increases 5x in intensity... It has never worked to "ask" it what it is as many meditations suggest. You asked if there's still seeking - there is definitely still seeking to "get rid" of it when it arises. It is too overwhelming to be fully sat with in DE. Any suggestions?

Physical pain happens and is unavoidable, but mental pain, or suffering, is optional. As you know, thoughts that tell the story about suffering are the suffering. Pain comes up and passes all by itself. “This too shall pass” is a good mantra and it could be useful sometimes. Peace is always here, underneath. Suffering is story, made up of thoughts of what should be different. It is a story about suffering. When the story is believed, it creates self-feeding loops to strengthen titself and triggers more feeling.
Can you notice that?
Have a look, is physical pain and suffering the same?
Can the pain be dissolved or wished away?

If there is surrendering to “pain”(i.e allowed to be) there will be peace with “pain”. “Pain” will stay for a while and then eventually go away – maybe tomorrow or maybe never - ‘time’ does not exist outside of thought. The content of thinking differs in that how accurately it reflects what is happening in DE (life flowing). Stories about having pain and looking for a solution to that – like taking a pill, or going to a doctor, etc – are also empty, but at the same time there is less suffering in them. They all point to the sensation ”pain”, and it’s presence or lack of it.
The key to unpleasant sensations (e.g. pain) is to be able to feel the sensations fully. The usual response is to push them aside, ignore them, distract ourselves from them or we try and change them. Even after ‘no self’ is realised, it isn’t easy to sit with bodily sensations as they are usually intense as they need a few rinses to start to not be so intense. Resistance to the pain is the only barrier to it passing peacefully. It’s about remembering to focus on our breath - we normally tend to hold our breath.
Ultimately, if there is action you can take when it comes up, then take it. If not, just observe, and surrender to it, "make friends" with it.
Love
Rali

Dear Rali
Thank you for your continued guidance.

I keep typing my response and then backspacing whole paragraphs. It is as though as soon as something is written it becomes untrue.

Please allow me to sleep on this.

Ankita

Sure, Ankita, no problem. Take your time and LOOK

Rali!!!
I slept on it.. twice.
Aaaaaaaahhhh

It is seen 👍👍👍
You know, when I write to you, there's always a tendency to go back and reevaluate the pronoun "I", and instead of using a subject-verb format, use an only verb format. As in, usually I would say "I see it", but here theres more inclination to write "It is seen". Today is the first time I mean it so strongly: "It is seen". "I see it" elicits a smile :)

Regardless, lets excuse the language structures...
I wish I could give you a hug (with your consent).

The answers:

Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought?

THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE: ZERO ZILCH NADA

What does forget and get caught doing things?

No one forgets and no one gets caught doing things. What a ride.

What abides in no-self?

No one abides in no-self.

The same thought that takes ownership and seems to be the self also takes ownership of the no-self. It just hides in the no-self now! I am not the self and I am not even the no-self. I am not even not.

How is it possible to "maintain" something when there is only the present?

Yes! How is it possible? And what will maintain it!!!
It is not possible. Yes there is only the present.

Physical pain happens and is unavoidable, but mental pain, or suffering, is optional. As you know, thoughts that tell the story about suffering are the suffering. Pain comes up and passes all by itself. “This too shall pass” is a good mantra and it could be useful sometimes. Peace is always here, underneath. Suffering is story, made up of thoughts of what should be different. It is a story about suffering. When the story is believed, it creates self-feeding loops to strengthen itself and triggers more feeling.

Rali, there is something about writing to you - something about writing really forces the "looking" to LOOK at the gaps. Several times, especially now, there is almost an immediate looking at all the assumptions in what is expressed in a sentence that was just typed - and it happens so quickly that the demand to reframe the expression makes it seem that expressing/narrating/typing is sooo slow......
If we were speaking face to face it would go something like this: "So, well... wait.. no no. Well - no, not that either". Dumbfounded and perplexed.

All this to say that since yesterday everytime there has been "looking" at the physical pain, there has been little to no "wanting" to get rid of it. It is a sensation, and yes Rali, indeed there is peace to be found even in the experiencing of that sensation. Ah, I could dance! One big facet of the "story" that created suffering was also attributing this pain to be "me". The thought-group that kept getting triggered was that if this pain doesn't go away, the sense of "me" will never go away. Well, it did!!! And there really is no longer any problem with any headache - it can be here for as long as it wants. Just a sensation - albiet a strong one sometimes! What an experience to experience anything... even pain sensations.

Can you notice that?

Yes.

Have a look, is physical pain and suffering the same?

No :)

Can the pain be dissolved or wished away?

Heh, wouldn't the self love that!
No it cannot be dissolved or wished away.

'time’ does not exist outside of thought.

Suchhh a big one. Yes, I see it! Woops - "it is seen"!

Ultimately, if there is action you can take when it comes up, then take it. If not, just observe, and surrender to it, "make friends" with it.

Amen :)

Thank you for everything.

There's something I wish to share with you, and it carries some intellectualization, but please make a pass for this one:

The dreams that happen at night, you know how sometimes a sensation or sound (alarm clock) from "real life" gets incorporated and weaved in somehow into the dream? This morning, there was a strong sensation of the head feeling weird against the pillow in "real life", which in the dream that was being dreamt got translated as me sleeping on the bus on some lady's lap, who generously let me do so, and then other characters in the dream responded to that, the dream story played out, etc etc - and on waking up from the dream, I was like oh it was this damn pillow all along!
And then, there was a thought of insight: This is how it happens, there is only ever a sensation, and then a whole realistic seeming story appears out of nowhere to justify it.. with many characters, many tangents, many moving parts, that make perfect sense (in the dream)! All it was in reality was a sensation!

That is all...

Gratitude
Ankita

Hi Ankita
Yes!! YES!! YES!!! So much clarity!
I can see there is a shift.

I wish I could give you a hug (with your consent).

and I’d give you a hug back :)

You know, when I write to you, there's always a tendency to go back and reevaluate the pronoun "I", and instead of using a subject-verb format, use an only verb format. As in, usually I would say "I see it", but here theres more inclination to write "It is seen". Today is the first time I mean it so strongly: "It is seen". "I see it" elicits a smile :)

Don’t worry about that! Language is language, and as long it’s known that is empty it’s all good. There still will be pronouns, but their nature is seen through.

The dreams that happen at night, you know how sometimes a sensation or sound (alarm clock) from "real life" gets incorporated and weaved in somehow into the dream? This morning, there was a strong sensation of the head feeling weird against the pillow in "real life", which in the dream that was being dreamt got translated as me sleeping on the bus on some lady's lap, who generously let me do so, and then other characters in the dream responded to that, the dream story played out, etc etc - and on waking up from the dream, I was like oh it was this damn pillow all along!
And then, there was a thought of insight: This is how it happens, there is only ever a sensation, and then a whole realistic seeming story appears out of nowhere to justify it.. with many characters, many tangents, many moving parts, that make perfect sense (in the dream)! All it was in reality was a sensation

Beautiful insight!!!
Is there anything else? Or do you feel ready for the final questions?
Love
Rali

Rali,

🤗

Is there anything else? Or do you feel ready for the final questions?

Nothing else, please shoot the final questions :)

Ankita

Great :)!
Here there are:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Love
Rali

Dear Rali

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There is no separate entity - anywhere, in any way, shape or form.
There never was.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self can be described as the thought or the group of thoughts that make it appear as though there is a unique entity inside a "body", where the body refers to ....well, demarkations that can be physical (all these organs combined are the body!) or mental (all this "past", "future", hopes, dreams combined is the body!), and the unique entity residing within has autonomy over some aspects of the body and the body's orientation while navigating the "world", where world refers to everything minus the body.

This is illusory and thought-formed. The boundaries only exist in thought, and are reinforced over and over by thoughts too. If the thoughts are believed in, (belief: just another set of thoughts triggered by one thought) then not only is a separate self born in illusion as a result, but "others" are also born. "I" vs "the others" can be a very powerful reinforcement for the illusion of the separate self.

Apparent autonomy or control can also be a pillar that upholds this illusion, where thoughts layered on top of THIS happening claim that they (or the entity "they" make up, residing inside) are responsible for the happening.

The way that language is structured can also veil reality, giving emphasis to illusory control ("I did this": subject-verb-noun, making it seem that there is a subject that is verbing on the object, dividing "THIS" to subject that is the "I" and object that is the "world").

All of this together left unquestioned kickstarts the illusion and maintains it.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels light, transparent, intimate, relieving. It makes it seem that absolutely anything can be accepted. All is acceptable... Why wouldn't it be? It isn't all "2 feet above the ground" though. Sometimes anxiety is triggered, but there is peace even underneath it. Yes, there is. Apart from that, it is pretty much ordinary.
The difference from before starting this dialogue is that everything is welcome. Anxiety, overthinking, physical pain, thoughts wishing there was no anxiety/overthinking/physical pain, desires - material and spiritual, action and inaction - anything will do, because it is all infact quite the same: a sensation, a thought, or seeing/hearing/smelling. In other words, it is all one soup: experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Gamechangers:
- Clearly stating what direct experience is, and strictly sticking to it. There wasn't much or any understanding of direct experience prior to this, and just understanding that caused a mini earthquake within thoughts. Many years of listening to spiritual teachers talk about how "everything is a story" never truly registered - but having direct experience defined made in sink in quite quickly.
- Pointers on control (the hand flipping exercise)....left me stunned
- Pointers pointing to the expectation of trading the small "I" for a bigger "I" ("oh maybe i am the big awareness now" - haha)

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Decision is an afterthought and only available as a concept in hindsight. In order to decide, there must be "options" to decide from. There is just THIS and everything is simply happening - only a thought can say that these were the available options from which the decision to choose this was made, but to THIS/the-happening, there was only one option, i.e. what happened.
For example, "I" decide to raise this hand. The options to the thought that claims "I" decided it would be: Option 1 - raise the hand, option 2 - do not raise the hand. But these options are an afterthought. At what point would such a decision be made? Would it be made when the thought appeared to raise the hand? (Can a thought raise the hand?). Or would it be when "I" started typing this answer, which led "me" to type this example, as a result of which the hand must be raised? Or would it be when "I" joined LU to begin with? ... This could go on. There is no line where the "decision" begins or is made. IT is all happening - and the way it plays out is the only option that there is.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Intention also only exists in thoughts, and is a more subtle way to group decision-thoughts. It can even be called the king of decision-thoughts, hehe. It is the thought that dictates the alignment of other thoughts that claim they can decide.

For example: "My" intention is to be healthy.
Thoughts contained within this group: - "i" decide to pick the healthiest food everytime, "i" decide to exercise everyday, "i" decide to quit junk, etc etc.

Or another example: "My" intention is to get this work done.
Thoughts contained within this group: -"i" decide to begin at xyz time", "i" decide to make an efficient task list, etc etc

An intention can also be described as the beginning of the thoughts that claim doership.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Free will, or "will", also suggests that there are options to choose from... And that there are preferences... And that there is a goal that the "will" is aligned to. All of this is thought content. Since there is no goal, no preference, no options, hence there is no will. Or, this can also be tackled from the other way around: Since there is no "I" or separate self, what can have the "will"?

For example: By free will, "I" decide to drink water.
All thought games, refer the answer to "decision".
There was never a choice, never an "I" and hence never a "free will". It's just THIS happening.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Hehe, there has been enough ranting on choice. In summary, there is no choice - all thought content. Thought content sees "objects" and differences between "objects" and hence it appears that there are choices. Thought also creates a choice-maker out of thin air, so its all a grand party...

For example: "I" choose pink over purple.
.....Nothing new to be said. All thought, all stories.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is an illusion born out of layering of thought over what is already happening, claiming doer-ship of the happening.
Example: "I" wink.
Did "I" make the muscles in the eyelid do this? Did I "decide" to do this? When? At what point? Where is the decider? Where is the mover?

What makes things happen? How does it work?

Its all just happening. There is no making-it-happen. Its all just happening.
How does "what" work? It simply happens...
"I" don't know how or why.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Responsibility is simply action arising out of the "location" being referred to as "I" here. There is no one responsible since there is no separate self, no separate controller. This is tricky to put into words, because this isn't to say there is no responsibility: because responses do arise - there is simply no one responsible for responsibility.

For example: If an apology arises out of "me", it doesn't mean that there is an entity within the "body" that was responsible - it was all just a happening, including the event and the apology.

6) Anything to add?

:) Not really

Please accept my heartfelt thanks, Rali.

Ankita

Hi Ankita
Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! I really enjoyed reading them! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready.
Love
Rali

Thanks for everything Rali :)

❤️❤️❤️