Liberation from self

[bretharte]

Hello, Warissem,

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second one, where I'm just describing what's happening without using the "I" word seems truer, more accurate, cleaner in a way.

2. What is here without labels?

The same things are here and happening without the labels. What is different is how the events are experienced. Without the "I" label, what happens is just happening with less or no interpretation, without being concerned about how the events inmpact the "I". There was a slight sense of relaxation in the head while writing the second time.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

It seemed that labelling everything in terms of what I experienced did affect the experience - the mind felt a bit tighter. It was also interesting to notice that nothing much different was happening during both writing sessions, mostly the same experiences, same perceptions, but not applying ownership to the experiences felt lighter, freer. Adding the "I" was really not necessary.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

I noticed towards the end of the second writing session that there was a lot of body shaking which is how my body releases energy. That didn't happen as much during the first writing session. Also, as I mentioned above, my mind felt a bit more relaxed without writing in terms of an "I".
Thank you, Warissem, for another very interesting and revealing exercise. I think I will try to do this periodically, perhaps not writing, but noticing labelling with and without the "I". I also saw that there was no need to label with an "I", everything was happening without that reference.
With gratitude,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

You are doing well, slowly but surely.

Is there still seeking ?
If so what is missing ?
Are you ready to answer to the final questions ?

Anyway feel free to discuss any lasting doubt about this stuff.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Is there still seeking ?

Yes, there is still seeking. What has been coming up very strongly for me the last two days is the feeling of not wanting to be me, not liking myself. That was why I have really wanted to see that there is no self, because then there would be nothing to dislike. But I think that these feelings have to be worked through and hopefully accepted in order to be free of them or at least not so tremendously resistant to them.

If so what is missing ?

I don't know what is missing, perhaps what I wrote about up above, acceptance of this not wanting to be me. I'm trying to feel these feelings, feel into them, feel the resistance to them and allow them to do what they need to do. But it is extremely difficult and uncomfortable.

Are you ready to answer to the final questions ?

No, I do not feel remotely ready to answer the final questions. I'm sorry that it is not being seen that there is no self, the self seems very strongly entrenched in me. I think the questions and practices are helping to loosen it up a bit, but it does not want to go away. I hope you will be patient and be willing to keep working with me.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Yes, there is still seeking. What has been coming up very strongly for me the last two days is the feeling of not wanting to be me, not liking myself.

How is this feeling express itself in direct experience (sight, sound, smell, taste or sensation) ? As you know a feeling is a sensation and a label (thought) put on it.

That was why I have really wanted to see that there is no self, because then there would be nothing to dislike. But I think that these feelings have to be worked through and hopefully accepted in order to be free of them or at least not so tremendously resistant to them.

Yes, these feelings must be seen for what they are : sensation+a label. When this kind of feelings arise, you look at the sensation itself (if there is a sensation in the body), stay with it and see it for what it is "a sensation" coming and going like clouds in the sky. Don't identify with a sensation nor a thought. let them come and go.

I don't know what is missing, perhaps what I wrote about up above, acceptance of this not wanting to be me. I'm trying to feel these feelings, feel into them, feel the resistance to them and allow them to do what they need to do. But it is extremely difficult and uncomfortable.

As I said above, be neutral and let sensations and thoughts come and go. Relax and just be, whatever is coming and going.

No, I do not feel remotely ready to answer the final questions. I'm sorry that it is not being seen that there is no self, the self seems very strongly entrenched in me. I think the questions and practices are helping to loosen it up a bit, but it does not want to go away. I hope you will be patient and be willing to keep working with me.

There is absolutely no self to be loosen or go away. How can something which never existed, which is not here can do something? The self is like the snake in this story :
A man walks at night along a path. He sees a poisonous snake barring his way and turns and runs in the opposite direction. As he returns along the same path in the morning, he finds a coiled rope on the ground. He realizes that in the darkness, he mistook the coiled rope as a snake and it dawns on him, in the dark it is hard to see reality as it truly is. In the light of day, we see more clearly."

Let me know about what is going on.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

How is this feeling express itself in direct experience (sight, sound, smell, taste or sensation) ? As you know a feeling is a sensation and a label (thought) put on it.

The feeling is experienced as an energy in the abdomen and also around the heart - a very unpleasant sensation of energy that feels stuck and can't release. There's a particular flavor to it because it is resisted and the resistance is what feels so unpleasant, but its not possible at the time to not be resistant to it. And at the same time, negative thoughts arrive and feel like darts hitting my body and intensifying the energy in my body. When these sensations are intense they stay for as long as I am paying attention to them. They don't move.

There is absolutely no self to be loosen or go away. How can something which never existed, which is not here can do something? The self is like the snake in this story :
A man walks at night along a path. He sees a poisonous snake barring his way and turns and runs in the opposite direction. As he returns along the same path in the morning, he finds a coiled rope on the ground. He realizes that in the darkness, he mistook the coiled rope as a snake and it dawns on him, in the dark it is hard to see reality as it truly is. In the light of day, we see more clearly."

That is a good story. When we first started posting it felt like there were times when the illusion of self was more easily seen through but lately that has been harder to be aware of. Perhaps you could suggest an exercise that would help.
Thank you for your help.
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:-

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual/direct experience) and report back how you go.

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Thank you for the exercise. I tried it several times during the day as I was doing different activities - washing my hands, sewing, driving the car, etc, and I found it made things very simple and easy. It removed so much drama and thoughts that I should be doing this or that - doing was happening and it was very peaceful. I will continue practicing this exercise as much as I possibly can, it feels very powerful.
Thank you so much,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

When doing the exercise, look at each activity having this question in mind : is there a doer, a me doing things ?

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

When doing the exercise, look at each activity having this question in mind : is there a doer, a me doing things ?

This is a really interesting exercise. I've been asking this question throughout the day as I go about my activities and what I'm noticing is how automatic so much of what I do is. So, obviously there is a thought that leads to an action, but I'm not even really aware of the thought, and the action just takes place. So I keep thinking back to the first exercise you had me try of looking at my thoughts and seeing if I had any control over them. And I did not. I'm using the word "I" just as a convenience. So, a thought occurs, which is not in my control, and an action occurs, which I don't have any conscious awareness of initiating. So, looking at this chain of events, there does not seem to be a doer, or a me doing things. But its not crystal clear yet, the habit of believing in a me very strong. I would like to continue practicing this exercise for several days and see the results. The sense of relief if this could be completely known and accepted as what is absolutely happening would be incredible.
Thank you so much,
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

I am glad to know that there is clarity about no doer and no thinker.

Does seeing need a seer ?
Does hearing need a hearer ?
Does feeling sensations need a feeler ?

Warissem

[bretharte]

Does seeing need a seer ?
Does hearing need a hearer ?
Does feeling sensations need a feeler ?

There is a sound, the sound is received by the ear and interpreted by the brain. Same with sight, and sensations. What seems to happen is after the interpretation of the stimuli, another interpretation is made by thought that assesses the potential impact of the stimulus on the self. So, the self is the last thought in the sequence. Do you have any exercises that might help see whether thoughts are true or false? Because thoughts construct our world, so it is necessary to be able to determine the truth of a thought, or if any thoughts are true.
Thank you,
Francesca

[warissem]

Hi Francesca

Your answer is a thought story. Come back to direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,

Your answer is a thought story. Come back to direct experience : seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching or sensations.

Thank you for the clarification. So I have been experimenting many times today to see what the direct experience of seeing and hearing is and the first direct experience is that there is just seeing and or hearing. I have only worked on those two today because its been so difficult and confusing and I haven't been feeling well. My mind keeps wanting to add a seer and a hearer to the experience, but in the first moments of seeing/hearing, there is only that, no seer, hearer. It is so simple, but the mind keeps making it more complicated. If I may I would like to work on the other senses tomorrow.
Thank you again for your help and guidance.
Francesca

[warissem]

Good morning

You are doing well. Continue to look till there is certainty of no self, no one doing things. Don't resist to thoughts, let them come and go, like clouds in the sky. There is seeing, yes. There is seeing (or knowing) of thoughts, there is no knower.

Best for you

Warissem

[bretharte]

Hi, Warissem,
Thank you so much for your encouragement. I am noticing shifts in thinking. There is much more awareness of self referential thoughts, especially ones about what I should do to make myself feel better. And the feeling that comes with those thoughts is constriction and unpleasantness. It is easier to feel uncomfortable feelings and less connection to them - less belief that they are who I am, so it's easier. Less automatic repression of uncomfortable thoughts and emotions. I'm still living in the belief of the I, but it feels like there is so much more awareness of the belief and questioning of it. I went for a walk today and the sun was shining and everything was green because we have had so much rain and I was enjoying seeing everything and how everything seemed to be just perfect as and how it was. Then I sat out on the deck and looked at the trees and sky and bay and after a while felt the invitation to be part of everything, to give up the separation. It was so wonderful it made me cry.
I will continue to question and observe and inquire about the self, about the doer.
Thank you so much for helping me in this work.
Francesca