Looking to see deeper

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

In my last post I wanted to clarify that the interpretation of sounds counts as "thought." Since it does, I don't see a problem with the ordering of sound/thought/sensation in the example I gave (if "time" is assumed).

Good! Are we in agreement then, that besides meaning/description thought cannot do anything?
Let’s move on…

doer - I feel like I can alternate my perspective on what it's like to 'do' something. For example, in one way of looking, I pick up my teacup and take a sip of tea. In another way of looking, the intention to take a sip arises, the hand extends, the cup is lifted, the sip is taken, and that's it, I'm not even there.

When you say another way of looking what do you mean? Are there two different modes of doing things or just two different ways of describing what is happening? Let’s examine the example that you have given… What makes the picking of the cup happen? Do you tell you hand to pick up the cup? When you are sipping do you constantly remind your hand to hold the cup, or is it happening on its own? In what way you are doing anything?
Look at the clouds in the sky. Are they moving according to anyone's direction? How is the movement of your hand different from the movement of clouds? Can the thought "I move my hand" move your hand? Please LOOK and report. Remeber these questions are more like koans than the usual questions-answers. Each one of these questions can be the key. They are aimed to shake the attachment to complacency, to inspire insight.
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Are we in agreement then, that besides meaning/description thought cannot do anything?

Yes.

When you say another way of looking what do you mean? Are there two different modes of doing things or just two different ways of describing what is happening?

Two different ways of describing, not two different modes.

What makes the picking of the cup happen?

It just automatically happens that way. I don't see any cause for it.

Do you tell you hand to pick up the cup?

No

When you are sipping do you constantly remind your hand to hold the cup, or is it happening on its own?

No, it happens on its own

In what way you are doing anything?

I'm not doing anything, and can't find an 'I' that could do anything

Look at the clouds in the sky. Are they moving according to anyone's direction?

No

How is the movement of your hand different from the movement of clouds?

It's not actually different. There just tends to be more thought content like reasons or stories about the movement of the hand.

Can the thought "I move my hand" move your hand?

No

So when I treat all thought content as "not real" and investigate what remains, no 'I' can be found, no time can be found, no causality can be found, etc. The thought content still feels important though. Like I must be missing something to have reached the drastic conclusion that thought content isn't useful for anything.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
Very good!

So when I treat all thought content as "not real" and investigate what remains, no 'I' can be found, no time can be found, no causality can be found, etc. The thought content still feels important though. Like I must be missing something to have reached the drastic conclusion that thought content isn't useful for anything.

Well, as you have figured yourself out, things are just happening - life expressing itself as “us” (the human experience). The story is part of life – part of the play of life. It is what gives the “flavour” of “human” experience. Human being is actually not a noun but a verb. Ultimately, there is nothing wrong with a story that truly is (or at least comes close to) describing the actual experience. Unquestioned assumptions (inaccurate descriptions), though, play a crucial role in where and how the story goes. Or at least seems that way. Suffering is part of the human experience too but not a necessary part. It is optional.

Yes, thoughts can’t REALLY give answers and that’s part of the mystery, but that’s OK too. When you say they are not useful, is it true? Thinking IS part of THIS (DE). To say that they are generally unnecessary would be another assumption – another “this shouldn’t be like that”. It is how it is and it is perfect because it can’t be in any other way.
We have labels that point to AE – like ‘apple’- and we have labels like ‘Superman’ or ‘Santa’, or ‘I’ that point to things that cannot be found in AE. The labels that point to AE are useful in communication. When you say ‘apple’ I immediately know which AE you are referring to. Will my experience be exactly like yours, we cannot know, but it does refer to a specific experience. I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them.
So let’s continue with the inquiry…

experiencer / witness - there's a way of looking where literally everything is just experienced and there is no experiencer. Feelings, sensations, intentions, thoughts, literally everything is just arising, and there's no experiencer separate from what's arising. This way of looking feels like it only happens occasionally like when I'm doing self-inquiry or taking a walk in nature. When I was writing this, that perspective happened briefly. It feels peaceful. Eventually 'I' comes back and this perspective is lost.

I’m not going to ask again about ‘the way of looking’ :). In your AE (DE), is there really any entity that does the witnessing/experiencing? What does it look like – form/color; does it speak etc? Or sits in a cockpit with all the levers to be pulled? Or a miniature “you” sitting in an arm chair watching the screen? How can you describe it using the five senses? Is there a witness or just witnessing/knowing/being? LOOK!
Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does awareness/witnessing stop and the experience start, is there a visible border? Are there ”solid” experiences floating around - “arising, appearing and disappearing”? Are there three separate things - an experiencer, experience, and experiencing - or just experiencing? Now, would awareness of the experiences exist without the experiences? Please LOOK, don’t intellectualise, imagine or remember from your previous experience!
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

In your AE (DE), is there really any entity that does the witnessing/experiencing? What does it look like – form/color; does it speak etc? Or sits in a cockpit with all the levers to be pulled? Or a miniature “you” sitting in an arm chair watching the screen? How can you describe it using the five senses? Is there a witness or just witnessing/knowing/being? LOOK!

No witnessing entity is seen with any of the senses. I've been asking "what am I?" and looking in DE, and usually thoughts go quiet for some time after asking. Sometimes I'll see a mental image of 'my' face - but obviously I am not an image of a face.

Now let’s LOOK even deeper… where does awareness/witnessing stop and the experience start, is there a visible border? Are there ”solid” experiences floating around - “arising, appearing and disappearing”?

There are no experiences that are separate from awareness, or away at some distance to be witnessed by awareness. There's no border between awareness and experience. There's just awareness happening here right now.

The answers I'm giving to your questions are short, but I actually spent a lot of time looking during the last couple days. There was a lot of silent noticing of experience between thoughts.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
I’m glad you’re giving this inquiry a proper chance!

There are no experiences that are separate from awareness, or away at some distance to be witnessed by awareness. There's no border between awareness and experience. There's just awareness happening here right now.

This sounds a bit too intellectual. How is awareness happening? Can it be observed with the senses?

The answers I'm giving to your questions are short, but I actually spent a lot of time looking during the last couple days. There was a lot of silent noticing of experience between thoughts.

Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought?
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

How is awareness happening? Can it be observed with the senses?

Awareness is happening as the senses. It isn't observed with the senses. Each sense is part of awareness at this moment.

Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought?

Yes, especially when I forget that I'm in thought and get caught jumping from one thought to the next without noticing what I'm doing. That doesn't feel like abiding in tranquility.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

Awareness is happening as the senses. It isn't observed with the senses. Each sense is part of awareness at this moment.

I’m sorry but this sounds like a quote from a non-dual teaching (and we agreed to leave them behind). How do you experience this? Please give examples. When you use a noun, it suggests a thing (with "parts"). So how do you experience this thing?

Yes, especially when I forget that I'm in thought and get caught jumping from one thought to the next without noticing what I'm doing. That doesn't feel like abiding in tranquility.

What does forget and get caught doing things? What notices? Is there an entity that does this - it forgets, it remembers to notice, it get caught up in thought?
I think you might find this video interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... ex=15&t=8s
Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Ups one more question related to your first quote...

It isn't observed with the senses.

If it can't be observed with the senses that how do you KNOW about it? Did you just assume then? Knowledge and assumption suggest thought content...

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

How do you experience this? Please give examples.

In my experience there's color, sound, sensation, smell, taste, thought. Multiple can be here at once. That experience is what I mean by "awareness." So for example right now I can feel the keys on my keyboard, see my screen and hear the clicking of the keys. This color+sound+sensation experience would be an example of "awareness."

When you use a noun, it suggests a thing (with "parts"). So how do you experience this thing?

I guess I'm using "awareness" and "experience" interchangeably. I don't see awareness as a thing that can be experienced, it's just the name I'm giving for experience itself.

If it can't be observed with the senses that how do you KNOW about it? Did you just assume then?

There's the experience of multiple senses happening at once.

What does forget and get caught doing things? What notices? Is there an entity that does this - it forgets, it remembers to notice, it get caught up in thought?

There's no actual entity, but there is thought content about such an entity. And thought content about it forgetting, going a long time without remembering, noticing, not feeling tranquil, etc.

I think you might find this video interesting:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lm3G0_ ... ex=15&t=8s

Thanks, I enjoyed that video and a handful of others from that channel. They're funny and quite clever. I resonated with this one in particular :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSrv63R2luA

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
I really enjoyed your reply.

I guess I'm using "awareness" and "experience" interchangeably. I don't see awareness as a thing that can be experienced, it's just the name I'm giving for experience itself.

Do you see how labels could be tricky sometimes and don’t really do their job? I agree with your description, but for me verbs most closely describe THIS (or this noun :))

I resonated with this one in particular :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSrv63R2luA

I really enjoyed it. Thank you, I haven’t seen it before! I enjoy their sense of humour as a way of expressing this.
So let’s go back to this question:
Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought? This time approach it from DE, not thought content. What is ‘peace’ and what is ‘not-peace’? What is the difference between thinking and not thinking?
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought? This time approach it from DE, not thought content. What is ‘peace’ and what is ‘not-peace’? What is the difference between thinking and not thinking?

I'm finding these questions difficult to answer and keep deleting my responses because they don't make sense.

When experience includes a thought about wanting experience to be different, it doesn't seem tranquil/peaceful. When experience doesn't include thought about wanting experience to be different, it does seem tranquil/peaceful.

I can't find anything that it means to be tranquil/peaceful in DE other than this. It's just terminology I'm using to refer to experience that lacks thought about wanting experience to be different. Really the only difference between thinking and not thinking is the presence/absence of thought.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

I'm finding these questions difficult to answer and keep deleting my responses because they don't make sense.

This is Mahamudra question. It has driven many people crazy :).
What is peaceful to a man that lives in a place of war – it would be no bombing today, life running normally with all its noises and commotion maybe. Would you consider this peaceful in your everyday life (assuming you don’t live in a place of war)? What I consider peaceful thoughts for you it could be hell. It’s all relative. Thoughts arise and then subside, their content is empty – dependant on your previous conditioning, how you’ve learned to describe THIS.
Is there such a thing as 'no peace' outside of thought content, or 'no peace' exists only in thoughts? How would you describe 'no peace' with your senses?
Is THIS/'What Is' dependant anyhow on your thoughts?
Can you stop thoughts from arising? Try for the sake of the experiment.

Give this question another go and see what comes out. It’s not you that works on it but it’s the question that works on you :)
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali
Thank you for the good questions.

Is there such a thing as 'no peace' outside of thought content, or 'no peace' exists only in thoughts? How would you describe 'no peace' with your senses?

"No peace" exists only in thoughts and not with the senses.

Is THIS/'What Is' dependant anyhow on your thoughts?

No. Right now I don't see any "my" to thoughts - the thoughts are part of THIS. They just happen automatically the same way sensations do.

Can you stop thoughts from arising?

No. I can't even tell if a thought will come before it's already here.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
Very good!!
So, is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought?

decision maker - During everyday life I feel like I'm in control of many decisions. But let me look into this right now. I'm going to decide right now to lift either my right hand or my left hand. Pause. The right hand was lifted. Where did that decision come from? I have no idea. I don't think it was really mine. There isn't some separate entity that can make decisions independent of everything else.

Let’s explore choice, control and decision making a bit further. Can you please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently? How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
Please give me some details about your decision making...
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Sorry for the late reply. I was busy with family the last couple days for Christmas.

So, is there a difference between abiding in tranquillity and moving in thought?

No, not really. There's no difference other than the presence/absence of thought content about an experience not being tranquil.

Can you please take me through a biggish decision that you made recently?

I haven't made any very big life decisions recently (well, hopefully deciding to register on LU is a big one :)), but I'll use the decision to buy tires for my car today if that's big enough.

How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen.

I can list some of the conditions that were necessary, but it's a conventional thought-based analysis. It's similar to describing the experience of eating an orange. The best I can do is provide a rough summary, when in reality everything is connected and cannot be broken down causally. But anyway here are some conditions that led me to decide to buy tires today:

- I have a car
- I used the car hundreds of times since the last time I got tires
- I didn't properly rotate the tires as often as it's recommended to do so
- Current tires are worn down
- My car is due for state inspection, and would fail the inspection with worn down tires
- I had free time to buy tires today
- I have the money to buy tires
- There is a store nearby that sells tires at a reasonable price

If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same?

No

How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?

There's no separate "me" that had any influence on any of these conditions. Sometimes there were thoughts about making decisions, like deciding to buy a car or deciding to drive places. But there was never actually a separate "me" that could make a decision.

Please give me some details about your decision making...

I noticed that the inspection sticker on my car was expiring and knew I would be at risk of a fine if I didn't get it inspected. I knew my current tires wouldn't pass inspection. Today I had the day off, which gave me plenty of time to buy tires. I checked the price at the closest store to me and it was reasonable. So I decided to buy them.

All of that is thought content, in reality everything just unfolded and there was no separate "me" that truly decided anything today.