Hesitancy and control rule me

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for making me aware of these contradictions. I will try again.

If there is no shape and form how can you say where the middle is? If the body is simply name (label) for sensations where is the middle of the sensation? Or are these - my feet, my hands, the middle – just more names (labels) of different sensations? Have another look, please. With your eyes closed, is there a ‘hand’ there or just sensation?

Yes…I can see this contradiction now. How can I possibly locate a middle when there is no form for the body? It cannot be done. And since the body is just a label for these sensations then I cannot locate the middle of the sensation. Feet, hands etc are labels for the sensations. The sensations I’m feeling are not LOCATED in these areas (there are no areas). I’m looking now….There is no hand, it’s a sensation!

Good! Because there is no body with any shape or form, right? Just sensations…

Right!!

How do you experience this? Do you see these spaces, hear them, taste, etc?

No, I do not see these spaces or hear them or taste them…I’m sitting here now and seeing that these are not spaces - I am making the thought statement. I am placing labels on where these sensations are located. There are no separate locations for these sensations I am feeling since the body has no form/shape. So yes, I am sensing pressure, but using thought to label instead of just sensing.

Is there a possibility that they are simply different sensations labelled differently?

There is the possibility that they are just different sensations that I labelled. I understand this now. I was not experiencing this through DE. There was thought in there, too.

So, yes, just observe the body sitting on a chair. What is there really in DE?

Feeling the carpet between my toes = simply, sensation
Looking at my hands on my lap = simply, sight
Seeing my chest move up and down as I breathe = simply sight
Hearing my breath leave through the nose = simply sound
Tasting the bitterness of coffee in my mouth = simply taste
Thought about breathing = simply, thought

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

Feeling the carpet between my toes = simply, sensation
Looking at my hands on my lap = simply, sight
Seeing my chest move up and down as I breathe = simply sight
Hearing my breath leave through the nose = simply sound
Tasting the bitterness of coffee in my mouth = simply taste
Thought about breathing = simply, thought

Very good! Is there a difference between touching your hand and touching the table in DE? Now look further. What experiences the sensations? Is there a feeler of sensations?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali :)

Is there a difference between touching your hand and touching the table in DE? Now look further.

There would not be a difference between touching my hand and touching the table in DE. Both acts are the same — both sensation. They would only be different when my thoughts label them as different (I.e., my hand feels cold, this table feels smooth). But both are the SAME sensation (touch).

What experiences the sensations?

I noticed a thought straight away when I tired to answer this question. I wanted to write that my body is experiencing sensations. But, it is not “my body” because it’s simply a name (label) and it has no shape or form. It’s not “me” experiencing them either. So…nothing is experiencing the sensations. It’s simply sensing.

Is there a feeler of sensations?

No, “I” am not feeling these sensations.I am not a feeler of sensations. It would be a thought, right, if I said “I” am feeling the sensations. There is no me doing any of this. I’m not a feeler, a see-er or taste-er.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa,
Very good! Just one remark:

There would not be a difference between touching my hand and touching the table in DE.

“Would” suggests a thought experiment. I really want you to describe your DE. You test and report. Maybe it’s a choice of wording, but it’s better if I say this anyway ;).

But, it is not “my body” because it’s simply a name (label) and it has no shape or form. It’s not “me” experiencing them either. So…nothing is experiencing the sensations. It’s simply sensing.

Very good!! :)

There is no me doing any of this. I’m not a feeler, a see-er or taste-er.

I suppose you have no problem with a listener and smell-er too :)(please correct me if I'm wrong). So let’s explore the thinker then…
For the next exercise I want you to sit somewhere quiet and observe thoughts.
A thought appears. In that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it? Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?
Where do thoughts appear from? Do they appear randomly or in a structured way? Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay? Can the flow of thoughts be changed? Watch like a hawk.
Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear. Now check:
Could you predict the order of their appearance? Did you know which will be the second or the fourth? Can you stop them midway? How long does that last? Test it for the fun of exploration. Are they 100% true?
What are you, when you don't think about what you are?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali :)

“Would” suggests a thought experiment. I really want you to describe your DE. You test and report. Maybe it’s a choice of wording, but it’s better if I say this anyway ;).

Yes, this was a choice of wording. Thank you for pointing this out. There IS no difference between touching my hand and touching the table in DE.

I suppose you have no problem with a listener and smell-er too :)(please correct me if I'm wrong). So let’s explore the thinker then…

Oh yes, I’m also not a listener or a smell-er

in that moment is there anyone or anything which recognises the thought or is being aware of it?

I sense that it’s not “me” recognising the thought as it (the thought) arose instantly. There was no delay. It just appeared out of nowhere. The thought just arrived. So, no one (i.e., 'me') is recognising the thought.

I will need some more time to write responses to the other questions and complete the exercise as I am encountering difficulty and contradictions in my answers. I will reply tomorrow :)

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

I will need some more time to write responses to the other questions and complete the exercise as I am encountering difficulty and contradictions in my answers. I will reply tomorrow :)

Thank you for letting me know! Take your time exploring, but try not to use logic. If there is a contradiction somewhere we'll figure it out together and can give you more pointers if needed so you can see it and not deduct it. Don't be afraid as there are no right or wrong answers, only what rings true at the moment.
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Thank you for understanding :)

Yes, I think I was afraid of the contradictions and needed to figure it out (Ie., use some kind of logic) before I wrote it down here. But that's pointless. Here are the rest of the questions:

Can you see anything that is separate from the thought and does the thinking?

It is “me” that is separate from the thought and does the thinking. For instance, I heard a sound outside my window, then I labelled that as “ car alarm” then immediately after “it’s so loud” . Then I was thinking about instead of letting that initial labelling thought go. The judgement I made (that it was loud) came a bit after the initial sensing (hearing) and the labelling of the sound.

Where do thoughts appear from?

I don’t know where the thoughts appear from. Right now, they are appearing from outside of “me”. I do not have an intention to produce this thought. It is arising from no where.

Do they appear randomly or in a structured way?

This is the contradiction that I encountered yesterday and am stuck on today. Some thoughts are appearing randomly but some - the ones that are more prominent and repetitive follow a structure (as in one thought leads to another that is connected to another, and then another). Sometimes the structure is logical, sometimes it’s not. I really don’t know at all!

Is there anything that is responsible for the thoughts like a traffic cop saying which one to go and which one to stay?

There are thoughts coming and going, but I sense that there is something (me?) trying to control them (like a traffic cop)/make sense of them and deciding which ones need to remain to be thought about more. So, yes, there is something there when I am sitting quietly that tries to take charge of the thoughts.

Can the flow of thoughts be changed?

Yes, but changing the flow takes a lot of effort. The flow of thoughts feels effortless whereas when “I '' try to change the flow by stopping on a particular thought, the flow is disrupted but is still “there” (somewhere) in the background.

Write down a sequence of 5 thoughts in the order that they appear.

I need to put socks on
I won't get onto the PhD
The application was not good enough
I don’t know if I’m doing this right
I don’t know whether to message or not.

Could you predict the order of their appearance?

I could not predict the order of their appearance. From reading the list of thoughts, the first two thoughts are such a leap but when I was thinking them, one just followed the other naturally with no resistance.

Did you know which will be the second or the fourth?

Absolutely not

Can you stop them midway?

I tried but it was difficult. At one moment I thought I stopped them, but it was more like quieting the others; there was another thought trying to push through so I gave into it.

How long does that last?

Stopping the thoughts did not last very long at all.3 seconds, if that. But there was a frustrating point where this thought appeared “stop thinking/stop the thoughts” (not sure if I can remember now!) but this was a thought that was trying to stop the thoughts! There was so much resistance that it felt good to let the thoughts just appear

Are they 100% true?

They are not 100% true because they did not come from my direct experience. They are just thoughts that appeared out of nowhere. I’m having a hard time deciding if the first thought had some truth to it…To put it really bluntly; my feet were cold so I wanted to put socks on. Wouldn’t this be in some way true because I experienced a sensation?

What are you, when you don't think about what you are?

I am separate from all these thoughts....and I don’t know what I am without these thoughts.

Love,
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Yes, you are right, there are some contradictions so let’s examine them more.

It is “me” that is separate from the thought and does the thinking. For instance, I heard a sound outside my window, then I labelled that as “ car alarm” then immediately after “it’s so loud” . Then I was thinking about instead of letting that initial labelling thought go. The judgement I made (that it was loud) came a bit after the initial sensing (hearing) and the labelling of the sound.
… Oh yes, I’m also not a listener or a smell-er

So is there a listener then, that hears sounds and then names them? Later you said that you can’t predict what your thoughts would be but you’re claiming the authorship of these. What you are reporting here is a sequence of thoughts in response to a sound, but how do see that ‘you’ were the one that came up with them? Which sense is that – did you see yourself thinking these, etc? Is there a possibility that these thoughts also appeared on their own from nowhere together with the sound? LOOK!

This is the contradiction that I encountered yesterday and am stuck on today. Some thoughts are appearing randomly but some - the ones that are more prominent and repetitive follow a structure (as in one thought leads to another that is connected to another, and then another). Sometimes the structure is logical, sometimes it’s not. I really don’t know at all!

This is a very good and honest observation, where no story comes to fill up the holes!! You saw for yourself that there are random and grouped thoughts. So is it possible that “the sound” thoughts are also just grouped thoughts that appear together in relation to loud sounds, trying to describe them and assess them? Is the thinker needed for them to appear?

I could not predict the order of their appearance.
Stopping the thoughts did not last very long at all.
It is arising from no where.

and then...

There are thoughts coming and going, but I sense that there is something (me?) trying to control them (like a traffic cop)/make sense of them and deciding which ones need to remain to be thought about more. So, yes, there is something there when I am sitting quietly that tries to take charge of the thoughts.

There is a quite obvious contradiction here. Either that, or your traffic cop sucks at what they are doing – they can’t stop them, change them – basically they just “sit” there helplessly. Is that your DE? Is there an invisible ‘me’ that it can’t be heard, seen, touched, smelled or tasted, but somehow is presumed to be there and to do things? How do you observe that interaction with thoughts? Is there a simpler possibility that these are just more stories (thoughts) about ownership of thoughts – e.g. another sequence of thoughts appearing out of nowhere? LOOK, examine again! You said yourself: “…this was a thought that was trying to stop the thoughts!”. So, is not possible that the “traffic cop” is made of just more thoughts?
Let’s try another exercise…
First, write what you are experiencing right NOW using the words “I,” “me,” and “my.” Like this:
I am sitting in a chair. I am hearing the traffic. I am typing these words. I am feeling hungry.
Do this for a full ten minutes. Watch the body. Are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing? Focus on what is happening around you rather than your thinking.
Then, for the next ten minutes, write without the words “I,” “me,” and “my.” Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs alone. Like this:
Sitting, typing, breathing, blinking. Hearing the traffic. Waiting for the next thought. Hearing birds singing.
Again, watch what is happening in the body. Don’t just rewrite what you wrote in the first part, but describe what arises as it arises.
Now compare the two ways of labelling the experience. Is one truer than the other? If so, which one? What is here without labels? Do labels affect the experience or just describe it? How did the body react? Which way of describing felt more natural, more relaxing?
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hello Rali,

Thank you for your responses. I have provided some of my answers to your questions (I'll need to tackle this in two halves - some questions today and the others including the exercise, tomorrow).

So is there a listener then, that hears sounds and then names them?

There is no listener. I am not the listener. It is just listening. The label for the sound is just thought.

How do see that ‘you’ were the one that came up with them?

In direct experience, I cannot see that I am the one that came up with the thoughts. It’s not possible to do so.

Which sense is that – did you see yourself thinking these, etc?

There was no sense which provided that sensing information. I did not see myself thinking these thoughts. The thought “it’s so loud” did not come from anywhere. I’m now questioning if this did come from me as I did not directly experience that….Yes, That thought did not come from me.

Is there a possibility that these thoughts also appeared on their own from nowhere together with the sound?

Yes, that is a possibility that I did not consider. I see where the contradiction is. I made an assumption that the sensing experience (the sound/hearing) and the thought “it’s so loud” was connected. I.e Me hearing the sound then produced the thought. But, the thought appeared from nowhere, possibly.

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Very good! See, a lot of these are assumptions which when checked are found out to be inaccurate :). This is why it is vital to check everything first hand!
Looking forward to the rest of your answers!

Enjoy the new year's celebrations (if you are celebrating)!
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

Thank you! Thank you for this :) :)

here are the rest of my responses

So is it possible that “the sound” thoughts are also just grouped thoughts that appear together in relation to loud sounds, trying to describe them and assess them?

Yes, yes! These are in relation to loud sounds - these thoughts that appear in the presence of a sound are not the direct experience of the sound.

Is the thinker needed for them to appear?

No. There is no thinker. These thoughts will just appear

Is that your DE? Is there an invisible ‘me’ that it can’t be heard, seen, touched, smelled or tasted, but somehow is presumed to be there and to do things? How do you observe that interaction with thoughts? Is there a simpler possibility that these are just more stories (thoughts) about ownership of thoughts – e.g. another sequence of thoughts appearing out of nowhere?

Ahh, there is not an invisible me in my direct experience that can control thoughts. That is an assumption I came to because I *believed* that I could control my thoughts. This assumption was based on….nothing. Nothing in my direct experience. Wow…beliefs can be so strong. I’m testing this again and thoughts are appearing randomly and at different times. No sequence. No one or nothing in control of it.

So, is not possible that the “traffic cop” is made of just more thoughts?

The traffic cop is a thought trying to stop the thoughts.



I am sitting on a sofa
I am hearing the wind against the window
My hands are feeling cold
I am hearing a car drive down my street
I am feeling thirsty
My fingers are touching the keyboard keys
I am drinking tea
I am looking at the laptop screen
I am feeling tired
My eyes are blinking
My heart is beating
I am smelling a candle



Sitting on a sofa, hearing the wind against the window, feeling cold, hearing a car, feeling thirsty, touching the keyboard keys drinking tea, looking at the laptop screen, heart is beating, smelling a candle, eyes are blinking.

Are there any sensations of tightening or relaxing?

Writing the I am/me/my statements doesn’t feel like an experience at all. I cannot truly sense the thing I am observing. I can't absorb what it feels like to drink the tea (i.e., sensing the temperature of the water on my lips). It feels like the sensing has…..gone. Just the thinking of doing it. I couldn’t sense the feeling of sitting on the sofa, or the laptop keys under my fingertips. It felt so far removed from what I was experiencing. Not a relaxing sensation at all….Quite, tense, actually.

I feel relaxed when typing the non i am statements, for sure. Removing the I/me/my drew me closer to the sensing. For example when typing “touching the keyboard keys” I SENSED the keyboard more…intensely. It felt easy to write this. Like a letting go of the stuff in the way of the sensing.

Is one truer than the other? If so, which one?

The second list felt truer. It is truer. I felt closer to these sensing…The sensing is the most important thing at that moment. Nothing else matters. I felt that maybe nothing else even exists at that moment.

What is here without labels?

Just sensations….Just hearing and touching and seeing and smelling.

Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels don't add any further to the sensing experience. They just describe the experience.

How did the body react? Which way of describing felt more natural, more relaxing?

My body felt detached from the sensations I was experiencing while writing the first set of statements. my body couldn't really FEEL them as intensely as the second way. Describing my experiences when removing the i/me/my felt like the most natural state and more relaxing.

Happy New Year and I am so grateful for your guidance :)

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa
Happy New Year!
Very good looking!! So you can see that thoughts describe and create a story at the same time (e.g., pass a judgement). “I” is a label and not a doer nor a thinker. “I” is a word used for the convenience of communication. If the “I” is believed to be an entity, the 'mind' is confused, and the 'body' tenses up. Like your experience when 'you' tried stopping the thought midway: “There was so much resistance that it felt good to let the thoughts just appear.”

My body felt detached from the sensations I was experiencing while writing the first set of statements. my body couldn't really FEEL them as intensely as the second way. Describing my experiences when removing the i/me/my felt like the most natural state and more relaxing.

I don’t know if this is figure of speech, because we’ve been through this already, but just to clarify… Is there a ‘body’ that experiences sensations ("detaches from them, feels them intensely")? Or are there just various sensations (sensing) labelled ’relaxed body’, 'tensed body', etc.?

So let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions. Please explore the two exercises below and report your findings
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…
How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ or and entity that is choosing be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

You can also do this exercise:
2. Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice), then pick up one or the other, while paying attention to the whole process of choosing.
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Is there a ‘body’ that experiences sensations ("detaches from them, feels them intensely")? Or are there just various sensations (sensing) labelled ’relaxed body’, 'tensed body', etc.?

Ah, thank you for drawing attention to this. Poor choice of wording. Re-reading this again, I can see what I was trying to communicate. I sensed more distance from the sensations. A body cannot detach or attach itself to sensations, there are just sensations that are labelled.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk. Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…
How is the movement controlled

The wrist is controlling the movement

Does a thought control it?

No, there is no thought that controls it. There is no thought saying turn “the hand this way, turn the hand that way” each time the palm flips. It just happens

Can a ‘controller’ or an entity that is choosing be located?

I can’t detect a controller. It’s just the hand present, flipping up and down. It feels automatic.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over.

There is an initial decision to begin flipping the palm over, but the more times the palm turns over, the decision thought subsides…I can no longer detect that there is a decision to be made to not flip or flip the palm over. It feels instinctive to do just that without a thought interfering. So, the initial decision point happened at the start and then after a few moments of turning the palm over, there was a decision to stop making the movement. I’m not sure if it was a thought; it felt instinctual to just stop turning it over.


I will practice the other exercise tomorrow a few times, and report back

Love
Mugunghwa

[poppyseed]

Hi Mugunghwa

Ah, thank you for drawing attention to this. Poor choice of wording. Re-reading this again, I can see what I was trying to communicate. I sensed more distance from the sensations. A body cannot detach or attach itself to sensations, there are just sensations that are labelled.

Good! ;)

The wrist is controlling the movement

Is it now? And how is this happening? What is a ‘wrist’?

There is an initial decision to begin flipping the palm over, but the more times the palm turns over, the decision thought subsides…I can no longer detect that there is a decision to be made to not flip or flip the palm over. It feels instinctive to do just that without a thought interfering. So, the initial decision point happened at the start and then after a few moments of turning the palm over, there was a decision to stop making the movement. I’m not sure if it was a thought; it felt instinctual to just stop turning it over.

Initial (decision) in relation to what? If we have to be clear, first there was a seeing of my text. Without the seeing of the text, would there be a decision to flip the hand? What was decided here? How is the stopping of the flipping of the hand different than the initiation?
You might find this video interesting:
https://vimeo.com/90101368?fbclid=IwAR3

Let’s explore choice, control and decision making a bit further. Can you take me through a biggish decision that you’ve made recently? How did it come to be? Consider all of the conditions that were necessary for it to happen. If any one of those conditions were different, would the outcome have been the same? How many of these conditions were outside of your influence? What was in your control (according to thought)?
Please give me some details about your decision making...
Love
Rali

[mugunghwa]

Hi Rali,

So I practised yesterday's exercise:

Put two objects that you like in front of you (e.g. a cup of coffee and a glass of juice), then pick up one or the other, while paying attention to the whole process of choosing.

…..So I have two objects that I like in front of me (a book and a crystal).... Without any hesitation, I picked the book up. Now a thought appeared ( “are you sure?”) and I feel doubt. I want to pick the crystal up. I’m picking it up but I do not feel present with it. A thought is appearing about the book. I’m focusing on the crystal again but there are now more thoughts appearing about the book,”why do I like it? Do I like it? Do I like it more than the book?”. I don’t feel present with either object at this moment…I’m even doubting whether I like either of these objects. There is a thought appearing to just choose one.

And here are some very glaring mistakes in my thinking about these questions

Is it now? And how is this happening? What is a ‘wrist’?

OK....this is obviously not true at all……WHY DID I WRITE THIS? Thoughts are controlling the movement. I was looking at my hand and I mistakenly thought that my 'wrist' / a 'wrist' was controlling it.

initial (decision) in relation to what? If we have to be clear, first there was a seeing of my text. Without the seeing of the text, would there be a decision to flip the hand?

No, without seeing the text there would be no decision to flip the hand.

What was decided here?

There was a decision to follow the instruction to flip the hand.

How is the stopping of the flipping of the hand different than the initiation?

There was no text instructing me to stop flipping the hand or when to stop…..I just stopped. 'I' made the decision to stop.

I will answer the other set of questions tomorrow :)

Love
Mugunghwa