I just want to know the truth of who and what I am

[warissem]

Good morning Jenny

What do you mean by the product of all elements? Do you mean the elements of sensation or the elements of what is experienced? And with overall flow, is that referring to intuition, or not resisting?

Thank you for the question. There is a need to look at the context which is here :
"Can you find anywhere where SJ autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?"

The choice is always a product of other elements. Exemple : an apple or an orange. Both are products of elements. Resting where you are or going somewhere : a choice happens through factors like good or bad neighborhood, allergy to humidity or to pollen, etc ...

The overall flow : I mean "what is going on".

In one word : you cannot get out from what is going on here now. Try to get out from the now.

Best wishes

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Can you find anywhere where SJ autonomously intervenes into life, choosing something that is not the product of all the elements; that is not a part of the overall flow?

No. There is just the flow. If "I" am of this flow, I cannot single a self out of it.

Now please consider a regular decision made eg; what to wear in the morning, or what to eat for lunch, and describe to me what happens. There are environmental factors, there are colour preferences (but where did those come from - any autonomous intervention there perhaps?), practical issues (such as what is available), available time for preparation, purpose (eg; need to fill up for the day, or to look hip and cool for that person!) etc. Where in there is an autonomous entity intervening in the flow of life? Can you find someone somewhere?

Due to so much conditioning, and years of thinking a self decides, it was difficult for it to not seem as if an "I" is making a decision at first. But no self can be found. Decision is just occurring as a need for decision arises. Preferences are interesting, and seem to be conditioned from culture, upbringing, and ultimately, who knows where those come from.

Can anything be found for which SJ is responsible – if so responsible to what and for what?

No.

Try to get out from the now.

I can't. It seems strange that the 'now' is so seemingly concealed in everyday interaction, and why it isn't more apparent or obvious in a mainstream way. Yes, more thinking... but the major takeaway of this investigation so far for me is how much "I" haven't been aware of now.

[warissem]

Hi Jenny

Good observations.

Are you ready for the final questions ?

Is there still seeking ? If so, what is missing ?

Feel free to expose any doubt here ?

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Hi Warissem,

There is still doubt and seeking.
As the final questions near, perhaps that is why the doubt wall has grown tall again. Today I have been busy without much time for reflection, and the thoughts in the few moments of quiet say, "see you will never awaken because you are focused on this world and not focusing on now and the truth" or old recurring thoughts "see, you aren't committed enough, curious enough." again, I am aware these are thoughts, but they are effective in veiling the present, and create convincing bodily sensations. perhaps this is quite normal. i don't have a lot of fear. minimal fear. there is only so far the thought-self can go. the past 6-8 weeks, I cannot know why seemingly out of the blue, this desire to break through has arisen. it has felt straining and desperate (thoughts yes) but with that, much has been realized as far as how much resistance, hiding, and doubt has been here these years after an initial glimpse. a long time ago, i read jed mckenna, and he wrote something along the lines of, 'you will know when you are done. don't stop until you are done." "i" am currently not done, so seeking remains. so the work continues to be to see through the thought/self illusion. keep returning to that investigation, and somehow give up/surrender at the same time.

[warissem]

Hi Jenny

There is still doubt and seeking.

Yes

As the final questions near, perhaps that is why the doubt wall has grown tall again.

What is a doubt in your own words ?

Today I have been busy without much time for reflection, and the thoughts in the few moments of quiet say, "see you will never awaken because you are focused on this world and not focusing on now and the truth" or old recurring thoughts "see, you aren't committed enough, curious enough." again, I am aware these are thoughts, but they are effective in veiling the present, and create convincing bodily sensations. perhaps this is quite normal.

Don’t believe thoughts. Look at direct experience. A thought cannot veil the present moment and don’t create any sensation. It is a thought which says there is a link between thought and sensation. “In veiling the present” is also a thought. Do you see how thoughts operate ?

i don't have a lot of fear. minimal fear. there is only so far the thought-self can go. the past 6-8 weeks, I cannot know why seemingly out of the blue, this desire to break through has arisen. it has felt straining and desperate (thoughts yes) but with that, much has been realized as far as how much resistance, hiding, and doubt has been here these years after an initial glimpse. a long time ago, i read jed mckenna, and he wrote something along the lines of, 'you will know when you are done. don't stop until you are done." "i" am currently not done, so seeking remains. so the work continues to be to see through the thought/self illusion. keep returning to that investigation, and somehow give up/surrender at the same time.

What do you mean by “not done” ? What is this “I” which is not done ? What are you expecting to happen when it is seen through the illusion of a separate self ?
Are you aware ?
Are there beliefs about you doing things, seeing, hearing, … ? Have you seen for sure that there is no you to make things happen or to be done ?

Anyway, expose your doubts to be clarified here ? Give details.

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

What is a doubt in your own words ?

Doubts are just more thoughts. And they are being believed to be who I am and how experience is interpreted.

Don’t believe thoughts. Look at direct experience. A thought cannot veil the present moment and don’t create any sensation. It is a thought which says there is a link between thought and sensation. “In veiling the present” is also a thought. Do you see how thoughts operate ?

You are right. There is believing the story of thoughts as true. And there is seeing thoughts for what they are - just thoughts. Thoughts keep coming and when not seen for what they are, they can be taken to be a construction of a self. They are just thoughts, continuing to refer to themselves. They can be believed to be true, or not. Yes, 'veiling the present' is just another thought. One that was believed to be something other than a thought. It was referring to an 'I''s experience, and so then there is a thought about an "I" and then another thought that there is an "I" right now experiencing a thought about an "I".

What do you mean by “not done” ? What is this “I” which is not done ? What are you expecting to happen when it is seen through the illusion of a separate self ?
Are you aware ?
Are there beliefs about you doing things, seeing, hearing, … ? Have you seen for sure that there is no you to make things happen or to be done ?

By 'not done' I mean to see through the illusion of a separate self and that is all - to be able to have "I" thoughts and see/know without any illusion they are not me. I suppose there are some beliefs - thoughts - that refer to a 'past' experience (thought) when there was a shift in experience where seeing through the illusion of a separate self was clear that there was no separate self. I am aware these are thoughts. "I" am aware it is not in "my" best interest to refer to this past thought as something to strive for. So the thought comes and I accept and notice it. "I" also notice resistance to these thoughts (that the next thought says they are bad and illusory) and work to accept that as well. It wants to be there and "I" do not linger in it believing that this is what I am looking for. I see it as a thought. While there may be a sense that there is a me doing something, to focus on this investigation, to seek, in another sense, "I" notice it to be a thought. That is what I work on.
I believe I am ready for final questions unless you recommend something else to investigate.

Thank you,
SJ

[warissem]

Good morning

By 'not done' I mean to see through the illusion of a separate self and that is all - to be able to have "I" thoughts and see/know without any illusion they are not me.

Yes, “I” thoughts are not you, then what are you ?

While there may be a sense that there is a me doing something, to focus on this investigation, to seek, in another sense, "I" notice it to be a thought. That is what I work on.

Can a thought “me” do something? Can a thought see; hear or have a sensation?

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Yes, “I” thoughts are not you, then what are you ?

When I ask "What am I?" and look, there is a feeling or sensation of an I. "I" locate that feeling. Where is it? In the head, in the back. A pressure or a tingling But there is no I there. And whatever I am is there whether attention is on the head sensation or not. So I keep looking. There is a space without thought. There are some thoughts. There are some sensations in the body. There is again a space without thought. It feels as if where "I" look is both pulled back from the head but also in the middle of all sensation/thought (I am not describing it well) and that is where things settle when "I" look for an I. And "I" just stay there. I don't find an "I" but it seems the closest I can get to answering that question "what am I".

Can a thought “me” do something? Can a thought see; hear or have a sensation?

No. When "what am I" is asked that is a thought. Upon receiving'/processing that thought, it seems as if something is being done with that thought, but it is not. The looking is an exploration of senses which cannot be accomplished by thought.

[warissem]

Hi Jenny

When I ask "What am I?" and look, there is a feeling or sensation of an I. "I" locate that feeling. Where is it? In the head, in the back. A pressure or a tingling But there is no I there. And whatever I am is there whether attention is on the head sensation or not. So I keep looking. There is a space without thought. There are some thoughts. There are some sensations in the body. There is again a space without thought. It feels as if where "I" look is both pulled back from the head but also in the middle of all sensation/thought (I am not describing it well) and that is where things settle when "I" look for an I. And "I" just stay there. I don't find an "I" but it seems the closest I can get to answering that question "what am I".

Sure you cannot find "I" among objects. My question was : what is knowing thoughts ? To give an answer to this question, you have looked at the wrong direction, you have looked towards objects, thoughts, feelings, etc ... It is normal and ordinary due to habit. I invite you to look to the place where you are looking from, where the thoughts are seen.

Is there a boarder between this "space without thought" and the knowing of it ?
is there a boarder between the thoughts and the knowing of them ?

No. When "what am I" is asked that is a thought. Upon receiving'/processing that thought, it seems as if something is being done with that thought, but it is not. The looking is an exploration of senses which cannot be accomplished by thought.

Have you seen clearly that "I", Jenny, "me" are concepts ?

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Hi Warissem,

I am going to take the day to look and notice.
Currently, there is immense frustration and hopelessness running in the thoughts. In one sense, it feels as if I am very close to the truth of knowing there is no self, then waves of thought-identification become consuming.
Just a little earlier, I knew there was no one, there was just emptiness and noticing. Then thoughts came screaming 'you can't do this' 'you don't have what it takes'. I know they are thoughts, but they are then believed. Then immense sadness like "I" am losing something/someone.
So I will keep looking and write to you tomorrow.
Thank you for guiding me. Thank you for your patience. I also realize "I" have wanted to write you the 'right' answers and just 'get it', but my experience mostly seems all over the place - it is very hard to communicate. There are times "I" know what you are pointing to, and other times it seems like some riddle I will never get.
I will get back to you tomorrow.
Best,
Jenny

[warissem]

Good evening

I am going to take the day to look and notice.

Good.

Currently, there is immense frustration and hopelessness running in the thoughts.
[/quote
]Frustration comes when expectations don’t meet what is here now. Are you expecting something to happen ? If so what is it ?

In one sense, it feels as if I am very close to the truth of knowing there is no self, then waves of thought-identification become consuming.

There is no you to be close to whatever. The truth is that there is no you, no self. There must no doubt after the seeing. Even you have seen that there is no separate self, event you have seen that there is a separate self, in this last case you can describe it for me.

Just a little earlier, I knew there was no one, there was just emptiness and noticing.

There is no you to know, there is only knowing. It is emptiness full of presence. Being knowing.

Then thoughts came screaming 'you can't do this' 'you don't have what it takes'. I know they are thoughts, but they are then believed. Then immense sadness like "I" am losing something/someone.
So I will keep looking and write to you tomorrow.

Don’t believe thoughts. Continue to look and don’t lean on thoughts.

Thank you for guiding me. Thank you for your patience. I also realize "I" have wanted to write you the 'right' answers and just 'get it', but my experience mostly seems all over the place - it is very hard to communicate. There are times "I" know what you are pointing to, and other times it seems like some riddle I will never get.

It won’t help to give right answers. Give answers after having seen their truth.

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Hi Warissem,

I have been looking. Yes, you are very right I have been looking at objects and also expecting something magical to happen.
It is right here now. There is no actual self - there is watching/awareness of a character called Jenny.

Is there a boarder between this "space without thought" and the knowing of it ?
is there a boarder between the thoughts and the knowing of them ?

No. There is no boarder between the space without thought. There is just the knowing of it.
And no, there is no boarder between the thoughts and the the knowing of them. Just the knowing. The knowing is always there. Sometimes attention is not focused on the knowing but it is always there.

Have you seen clearly that "I", Jenny, "me" are concepts ?

I see it. I recently read one of the Gateless Crashers excerpts of Shane. There is discussion about clinging to being somebody that makes perfect sense. Holding onto this 'Jenny' label that has a past and future and makes lists and checks of the list items and strives to be somebody or was somebody else before. All concepts. There is no Jenny is other than many thoughts of an "I" or "Jenny" label.

Thank you,
Jenny

[warissem]

Hi Jenny

Fine. I am glad to see that all is clear. I will send you the final questions tomorrow. Meanwhile, look at nature, animals, people and see that they are empty of self.

Kind regards

Warissem

[SJWilla]

Hi Warissem,

Thank you for your help. And thank you for your patience as so much frustration and confusion arose. Also, I seem to have a ridiculous amount of difficulty writing about awakening or anything related to it, so thank you for bearing with me.

Meanwhile, look at nature, animals, people and see that they are empty of self.

There is no self in nature, animals and people. But it is very strange, I feel incredibly grateful they are there and that there is anything at all. How bizarre and fascinating that a cat can recognize me or that a conversation about a shared 'experience' is had. There is this two-sidedness of something and nothing at all times. I don't really understand the nothingness entirely but it feels very natural. I know we are not supposed to reference spiritual texts, but if you are able to speak to whatever this 'oneness' or nothingness is, I would appreciate it. I don't really perceive a oneness, more of a nothingness. I woke up in the middle of the night and this immense fear washed over me. The thoughts were very fixated on dying and what it is, and the lack of understanding of it, and a story of being extinguished arose. It only lasted a few minutes but the nothingness seemed very scary in the thoughts and then the sensations were felt in the body and noticed for just sensations and it all moved on. I am familiar with emotion work and will continue to work with that.

Thank you for your all of your help.
Jenny

[warissem]

Hi Jenny

It is nothingness full of presence. These are the final questions. Elaborate on each of them.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Give in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?