Stuck in seeking

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus

Hope you're well. Enjoyed reading your replies as always.

Are you sure there was a 'first atom', beyond the dreamt interpretation of 'things'?

No, it's merely a concept used to illustrate and communicate.

Can you tell me all abut time?
Who experiences time?

Ahh time. Time always held a fascination for me. Massive Doctor Who fan.

But outside of fiction. Nobody experiences time, only "now" is experienced directly. But since you said "tell me all about it", I will write into this in more detail.

The past is memory. The past is what remains of experiences that were once had. Words, images, thoughts, stories. Undoubtedly these have a basis in what was once really happening, but they will be coloured by perceptual filters. "History is written by the winners" is a quote that I often come back to. It could also be said that "memories are made by the mind that remembers". I can tell you all about "my past", I can recall specific experiences, but I could never be sure that what I recall is exactly what was experienced. It will invariably have been muddled in with the perceptions, the thoughts about what was happening, and subtly mangled over time by revisiting those memories. A memory of an experience can be painful in a way the actual experience never was, or be given a significance that was never felt at the time.

The future is hypothesis, projection, assumption, prediction. In "the now", we have the ability to an extent to predict limited chains of cause and effect to conceptualise events that may occur, but nobody can see into the future. A meteorologist can examine the current behaviour of weather patterns and phenomena, and tell me there's a 99% chance that it'll rain tomorrow. But they are not seeing into the future, they are merely using what they see now and creating an informed projection of a likely sequence of events. As a fan of science and science fiction I've seen many projections, theories etc of what "the future" might look like. Some of those ideas have turned out to happen, some have not. Nobody knows.

This is certainly how I think of time now. Uncertainty is inherent in both past and future. Memories are questioned. The future has lost a lot of its appeal beyond its entertainment value as a thought experiment. I still love stories of a possible world of tomorrow, but I have lost all interest in planning for it. I've noticed of late that conversations about future planning always seem to end the same way - "Whatever happens will be responded to in the way that it is responded to". I still have thoughts arising about what I will do if x thing happens, I even acknowledge that these things might happen and that might be what I will do, but I don't believe it or invest much energy into making it happen.

This conversation can develop into one of how awakening meets the issues of the world. How this realsiation is embodied, but lets save that for a later date.

I can imagine that will be a fascinating conversation. But yes, it's beyond the scope of what we're looking at here.

So getting into the subtlies here.

By seeing there is ultimately no seperate 'other'.

Can you see that there is no seperation?

No seperation between 'you' and 'politicians'?

This would seem to be undeniable, yes. What I understood about "myself" can only apply universally. If there is no "me", and no "them", there is only one. The concept of "other" is still present to the extent that it's useful for navigating the world and communication, but it is understood as a concept.

There is no 'you' that can allow or grant life to be as it is?

Life has no dependency on whether it is allowed/granted by "me". Conceptually I can do so but it won't make the slightest bit of difference.

No 'you' to benefit from from this and no 'you' to better this.

No. The actions of the body that translate the activities of the mind can have consequences that may be taken to be beneficial to "me" or "others", but there is nobody controlling those consequences, or the actions. They are simply what happens.

There is simply realisation that life is.

And beyond that, I do not know.

Can you see this beyond the conceptual?

If anything, I now find it more "difficult" on a conceptual level than an instinctual one. By which I mean, that the long-standing conceptual framework that my thoughts rely upon are built on this separation, so I do experience some brief confusion when a thought arises and it is quickly seen that it doesn't instinctively make sense as it once would have done. When a thought implies separation it struggles to progress.

Can you feel the implication of this realsiation?

What a releif? No?

Relief is a good word for it. I can't deny there are still moments of lingering restlessness as the realisation deepens that there is "nothing to do". But I know they only arise on behalf of the thought construct. Life just is, nothing to be done with it or to it. I'm reminded of a pointer from a teacher I spoke with a while ago - "what's wrong with right now if you don't think about it?"

This is not about 'someone' bypassing the issues in the world, but purifying the way it is seen and acted within.

Trust that what is here, when everything is stripped away, is 'right', is 'okay', just 'is'. No fight. No seperation.

Agreed. The understanding is not a way to bypass issues in the world, but changes the context in which they are seen. How this integrates into the activities of life is a conversation that would be fascinating, but as previously stated I know that is a step beyond the intent of this particular discussion.

Feel into your direct experience - who do these ethics belong to?
Are they not just words that attempt to describe the inherentness of life?

In direct experience neither the person nor the ethics can be found. Both concepts, one attaches to the other. If the person can be equated to a fictional character, the ethics are the sort of thing that one would write in the character outline, the guiding principles for how that character responds to things.

21st century Koan. Amber or Johnny? Who dunnit?

No Amber and no Johnny. Hoping my news feeds understand this some day.

Great stuff Paddy, I'm curious, is there anything you have an interest in looking at or anhything that is unclear for you or are you ready to look at the final questions soon?

Well Marcus, if there is anything seen in my responses that you feel should be investigated further then I will be happy to do so. I am enjoying our conversation greatly, but I am reminded again that the purpose of this discussion in this place was to be "seeing through the illusion of the self". As far as I can tell, that illusion has been seen through. There are areas of interest for further discussion but these all seem to fall more under "what comes next", how this realisation is integrated and embodied, rather than anything standing in the way of seeing that there is no self. That is seen.

So, while I would gladly carry on talking to you for much longer, exploring the topics of interest, I think it would be a different type of conversation and not what we are here in this thread for. Unless you see a sign that something else needs to be probed, I would say I'm ready for the "final questions" - while acknowledging they are only "final" in a certain sense!

Much love
Paddy

[Marcus1144]

Thank you for your thorough responses Paddy!

It has been a delightful thread so far! :)

Let's see how you handle these!

I'll then bring your answers to some other guides who can check and we can go from there.

Take as much time as you need.

You can be punchy with the answers but not too punchy lol - flesh out the answers a bit so that it is clear where you are writing from.

We've covered all of this in our thread, so some of it might feel like you're repeating yourself.

Another opportunity to look and see the words emerge to express this.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share your own words, what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus,

Good to hear from you.

Ready to dive into the exam questions.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No. Not now, not ever, in any way shape or form. Separation and the separate entity are illusions. Very persuasive illusions, until they are seen through.

2) Share your own words, what the illusion of a separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of a separate self is the mistaken belief that what we are is an entity living within a body and mind. It claims ownership of actions, thoughts, decisions. It creates a false narrative around what is happening, namely that there is someone to whom things are happening, someone who must exert control over the flow of life to make things happen in a way that serves it. It judges, and creates stories from those judgement. It acts as a filter on perception, taking the input from the senses and relating it to itself.

In my experience, it most often showed up as a mental narrative voice, constantly in the foreground of attention, projecting possible futures and dreaming of the past, judging actions that were taken, perpetuating its fears.

All that is different now is that this is seen for what it is. The voice is still there, but its influence over attention is diminished. There is no attempting to silence or repress the voice, as there is nobody to do so, it is instead allowed to say whatever it pleases, without being believed. It can be listened to and even learned from, not for the content of what it says but the degree to which it arises can point to opportunities for objective investigation. It isn't bad or a problem, it is just a process of the mind.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is a lot more calm. Peace, even. Not in the way it might have been imagined during the times of intense seeking, because there were subtle delusions still in place about "what liberation will be like". The mind is not still, but it feels like there is less contraction, less looping thought, less resistance to its own activity. The constant and often unperceived judgements are less frequent, more apparent, and not given any importance.

During the past few days, there have been situations I would previously have described as stressful. The demands of parenting, the pressures of work, the car breaking down, etc. The degree to which these have been found stressful has been noticeably less than it might have been even a few weeks ago. Not that there has been no feeling of stress at all, but underneath there has been a trusting that a decision or a response will happen, and that things will be as they will be.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, that made you look?

This has been more of a gradual process, it is difficult to identify a "last bit". Between making my initial post and the beginning of the dialogue with Marcus, I had a brief but very helpful conversation with a teacher, and there was a definite shift at this point, away from desperate seeking and more towards an energy of curiosity, openness, wanting to clarify what seemed to have been seen. Then throughout the conversation here and the investigation that has happened, it's like that understanding seems to have deepened or unfolded, to the point where it is now undeniable, and yet so ordinary. There has not really been a final push - everything that was said and everything that happened was what was needed.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decisions - These happen. Situations arise and the body and mind respond to them according to conditioning, experience, understanding and preference. There is not someone making the decision - the thought that there is often attaches after the decision has been made. Believing otherwise would seem to be one of the causes of the over-active or looping thoughts.

Intention - Would seem to be another subtle layer of control applied to a decision, again often retroactively. Essentially it is the illusory "manager" setting out its vision statement of how it wants things to be, and providing something to judge actions and outcomes again later. If anything it limits and contracts things, as reality is approached with an agenda and goals rather than openness to whatever happens.

Free will - Again, a concept that reinforces the story of control. True free will cannot possibly exist - otherwise we would never suffer, because we would choose not to. Believing in absolute free will serves only to reinforce the judging and self-recrimination over decisions made and actions taken. A lack of free will does not mean everything is pre-ordained or that there is "destiny" or some other being controlling things. Just that everything happens in the way that it does, as part of a vast, unbroken, web of chains of causes and effects.

Choice - As with decisions, these are made by the body and mind as a result of conditioning or habit or preference. Sometimes they are immediate and sometimes they seem to be considered with the intellect, but there is nobody controlling this process.

Control - At its core, the illusion that the flow of life and events can be affected by a separate self to bring about a seemingly desired outcome. Choices and decisions are made, these can create some or even all of the causes of a particular effect, but these are not controlled by anybody.

Experiential examples of this happen throughout the day in the most ordinary actions of life. I spend time with my daughter in the afternoon after work. The weather is warm and dry, my daughter enjoys the outdoors, so a decision is made to go for a walk. The decision isn't something I initiate or control, it happens naturally in response to the situation and understanding of my daughter's preferences. Once we are out, walking happens, there is nobody controlling the movement or the activity. A direction is chosen based on past walks, the choice happens and the direction is taken. And so on, and so on. The decisions and choices happen as natural responses. There could be thoughts that they are decisions "I" have made, but it is seen that they are decisions that have happened that the self is then trying to claim ownership of.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

It depends what is meant by responsibility in this question. In the context of actions, choices, decisions, there is nobody to be responsible for them as they occur in response to what is happening. Cause and effect is not so simple that any individual choice or decision can impart responsibility for the outcome. Using the same example, if a decision naturally occurs to take my daughter for a walk, there is no "I" that is responsible if she doesn't enjoy it, if it rains, if by going for the walk some other task is neglected. The factors that lead to the decision were not controlled by me, so neither can the outcome.
In terms of another definition of responsibility - for instance, within our walking example, being responsible for my daughter's safety - there is a decision to accept such responsibilty and act in accordance with it. There is nobody that makes the decision to accept this responsibility, because it occurs naturally as a result of the situation of having a child, the conditioning of my mind and body, knowledge and experience to know that a parent should keep their child safe, the natural arising of hormones and feelings of love that reinforce that decision to take on that responsibility.

6) Anything to add?

Only to express my gratitude to you, Marcus, your fellow guides, and all who were involved in creating and maintaining this site and who give freely to help end the seeking where it arises. It is not the end of understanding, in fact it would seem to be only beginning, but the difference already made to my perception and experience is undeniable.

Of course I remain open to any clarifications or further questions if you or any of the other guides feel it is warranted. As I've said in previous recent posts it feels like there is more to come in terms of deepening, expanding, integrating things with this new context, and further conversations will always be welcomed as the opportunity arises.

Much love
Paddy

[Marcus1144]

Paddy,

A unanimous yes from the other guides.

Plain sailing.

Hope to see you on the Facebook groups, which you should be introduced to soon if not already.

If it's of any interest to you there are zoom meetings happening that I can let you know about.

You're also free to explore becoming a guide, which I'm sure you'd be quite adept at, it's a great way to deepen and scratch at what hasn't been fully explored.

Let me know if you need anything.

Thanks! It''s been a pleasure.

Sending Love

Marcus

[Dudeabidin]

Hi Marcus,

Thank you once again for your time and support. It's been greatly appreciated. I've joined the FB group so perhaps will see you there or in a meeting some time.

Will definitely consider guiding - I think after a little more time to let things settle I'd love to be able to help others as you've helped me.

Much love
Paddy