A self/body problem

[JedTheRed]

Thank you so much Vivien!

Can you say with 100% certainty that there has been a shift from an intellectual of understanding of there being no separate self to an experiential recognition of it?

I have certainly felt a bit of a shift - it's definitely more felt than ever before (along with a deeper intellectual understanding which was necessary for the shift) - maybe that's as much as I'm going to feel, or that anyone feels in this process?

During this process I have been taking things less personally which was a big issue for me. My main driver was feelings of fear and anxiety along with the associated "what if people notice that I am anxious/nervous?" etc - that still tends to arise and will probably take practice to see those sensations for what they are. It's during those times where I get most associated with the "I" simply because the feelings are so inward-looking and thought-associated.

But it does lose its effect when I look for the person doing anxiety, or look for the one who is fearing. They are just sensations happening with no "I" to take it personally.

Is there any doubt?

None. Even when anxiety or fear takes hold, the sensations aren't enough to magic an "I" into existence. Ego identification feels like it's happening during those situations, but I can break the spell easier through inquiry. I do think it'll just be continuous inquiry for a while to have this felt sense of it abiding.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

I don't think so! I think that I'm there. Way back at the beginning of this journey I expected some big fanfare, a sense of one-ness, everything changing after passing through the Gateless gate, but it's very much a sense of feeling like "heh, that's pretty cool and kinda funny". I'm more aware of narratives, labels, and stories in, well, everything, and I feel like I'm in a position to choose which of those I want to play along with. It's very hard to describe this stuff!

[Vivien]

Hi Jordan,

During this process I have been taking things less personally which was a big issue for me. My main driver was feelings of fear and anxiety along with the associated "what if people notice that I am anxious/nervous?" etc - that still tends to arise and will probably take practice to see those sensations for what they are. It's during those times where I get most associated with the "I" simply because the feelings are so inward-looking and thought-associated.

When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last until the end of the organism.

I do think it'll just be continuous inquiry for a while to have this felt sense of it abiding.

Well, are you after a special feeling/ state?

Does any feeling (including the unpleasant ones) have to go away in order to see that there is no personal self feeling them?

Is there anyone here who has problems with the feelings of anxiety?
Someone that doesn’t like it? And wants it to be gone?

I'm more aware of narratives, labels, and stories in, well, everything, and I feel like I'm in a position to choose which of those I want to play along with.

Notice the subtle, or not so subtle idea of there being someone who is having or seeing those experiences, and he/it has an ability to choose which one he/it prefers.

You can choose those?
Look for the one that is choosing. Where is the chooser?

And how is that choice actually made?

Is there really such thing as choosing?

I think that I'm there.

Who is there?
Who is there to awaken?
What/who does awakening happening TO?

Vivien

[JedTheRed]

Hey Vivien,

Sorry I've taken a few days to get back to you on this one, truth be told - the first question had me stumbling a bit but I see it now.

Well, are you after a special feeling/ state?

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't - I was, but I see that this is just another narrative that I accepted. Even the though of it not being a Big Bang moment but something more subtle like seeing thing as they are, is itself another narrative. In a sense I believe it will allow me to see things clearer, but no special feeling necessarily, just the falling away of conditions and not buying into as many self-related narratives.

Does any feeling (including the unpleasant ones) have to go away in order to see that there is no personal self feeling them?

No - they are intrinsic to the human experience, like trying to wish away breathing. I can feel part of me wanting/willing things like social anxiety to diminish once the illusion of the self is realised on an ongoing basis.

Is there anyone here who has problems with the feelings of anxiety?

No, which seems stunningly clear when I ask the question of this experience.

Someone that doesn’t like it? And wants it to be gone?

I know I answered the previous questions as if there was someone there, there isn't. Thoughts want it to be gone, but thoughts are not me - there is no me.

You can choose those?

Haha, it now seems laughable that I believed I had autonomy over the choosing. It's just another, subtle layer of thought - there is no chooser.

Look for the one that is choosing. Where is the chooser?

The chooser does not exist. There isn't one there.

And how is that choice actually made?

It isn't made rather, it just happens, and afterwards thought labels it with "I made that choice" when there is no I there or no choice that was made.

Is there really such thing as choosing?

No :) again, I'm laughing at a lot of these realisations and how "I" have missed them.

Who is there?

No one.

Who is there to awaken?

Nobody.

What/who does awakening happening TO?

It happens to nobody. It just happens :)

[Vivien]

Hi Jordan,

just the falling away of conditions and not buying into as many self-related narratives.

Maybe even this is too much expectation. Remember this:

When there is any form of suffering (or any form of discontent), it’s not just because there is a belief in a self. Suffering happens when certain stimuli poke or touch our ‘wounds inside’. Those wounds are not a person/self. The self is just an added narrative.

The personality stays almost completely intact when the self is seen through (at least at the beginning). All the conditionings from childhood, all the traumas, all the gathered emotional pains won’t dissolve in an instant just because the self is seen through. These most likely will stay, however, they are much more accessible and easier to work with after seeing through the illusion. This is just the first step, just the beginning, and not the end. But it is the beginning of the falling away of conditionings, which can last until the end of the organism.

Now, here are a bit more questions along the same lines.

What is the difference between doing and happening in your experience?

Is the separate self doing anything in life?

Or is the separate self also given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

What do you do right now for this to be?

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?
Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?
Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

Vivien

[JedTheRed]

Hey Vivien,

Thank you - that explanation has helped clear things up significantly for me.

What is the difference between doing and happening in your experience?

None whatsoever, I can see that they are different words for describing the same thing.

Is the separate self doing anything in life?

No, it doesn’t exist. Any doing is just happening without a doer.

Or is the separate self also given? As an idea? Or as an entity?

There is no substance to the separate self at all. No self selfing and certainly no entity there. It’s simply a collection of thoughts and preferences - a story, like the story of Santa Claus.

Is it possible that everything (with no exception) is just happening?

Yes - everything, even this “is-ness” of being itself is just happening.

What do you do right now for this to be?

Absolutely nothing, being just is. I can’t stop being from happening :)

Are you doing reading or reading is happening?

Reading is happening.

Are you doing sitting or sitting is happening?

Sitting is happening.

Are you doing seeing or seeing is happening?

Seeing is happening.

[Vivien]

Hi Jordan,

Thank you for your replies.

Is there anything that is not totally clear and you would like to look at?

Vivien

[JedTheRed]

Hey Vivien!

I think that's everything, thank you! Thank you for your patience in working through this process.
I was going to ask what to expect/if there is anything to do in letting this unfolding happen, but I was able to answer this for myself: there is no one there to expect anything or to do anything or even to let anything happen.

Happening will continue to happen, and that's the way it is.

<3

Thank you so, so much! You are doing incredible work here in helping others see things as they really are.

Thank you,
Jordan

[Vivien]

Hi Jordan,

You are most welcome :) We can chat a bit more...

How does it feel to see that there is no separate self in a way you thought it was?

Vivien

[JedTheRed]

Hey Vivien,

It’s difficult to describe - it’s kinda like it was before, experience is as it was yet with a realisation that should have had huge implications to an “I”, yet it’s as it was.

Language is proving difficult here but I’ll try: there is a sense of not being as hung up on internal stories and simply witnessing happening happening. In that way it’s like an ease with things as they are, but even attributing these words to it feels like it’s I’m saying it’s happening to someone, yet it clearly isn’t.

Hopefully that makes some sort of sense!

[Vivien]

Hi Jordan,

When the self illusion is seen through, something changes. Not permanently, but rather as flip-flopping.

In any given moment when it is seen, things get less serious. Since it’s seen that they don’t happen to anyone.

So life says the same, the personality more or less stays the same, and yet, there is an ease, or less seriousness (flip-flopping).

Now, we need to be sure that this understanding is experiential and not intellectual.

So please look for evidences in everyday life what it’s seen (on / off) that there is no personal self… and notice the effects of those moments of seeing. What do you find?

Vivien

[JedTheRed]

Hey Vivien,

So please look for evidences in everyday life what it’s seen (on / off) that there is no personal self… and notice the effects of those moments of seeing. What do you find?

It’s hard to describe but I have noticed it in the mundane like doing the dishes or tidying up where I have seen for 100% certainty that there was no self involved with doing the dishes. It’s like catching gaps between thought and seeing “aha, nobody home, nobody doing, just the dishes happening!”

I have noticed that sense of ease unfolding. My previous expectations of all ego-based problems falling away overnight was another layer of ego grasping for something, but now it an ease noticing happening and sensations in experience with much less ego thought-based associations with those happenings.

[Vivien]

Hi Jordan,

It’s hard to describe but I have noticed it in the mundane like doing the dishes or tidying up where I have seen for 100% certainty that there was no self involved with doing the dishes. It’s like catching gaps between thought and seeing “aha, nobody home, nobody doing, just the dishes happening!”

Nice :) Now please look at the same way (in everyday life) with thinking and deciding and choosing.

Is it also totally clear from immediate experience that there is no thinker of thoughts?
And no decider or a chooser?

Is there any control over thoughts, any, whatsoever?

Are thoughts more ‘done’ than wind? I mean there is no blower of a wind, it’s not done, it’s a happening, so are thoughts more ‘done’ or controlled / controllable than wind?

Vivien

[JedTheRed]

Hey Vivien,

Is it also totally clear from immediate experience that there is no thinker of thoughts?
And no decider or a chooser?

There is no thinker, and certainly no decider or chooser.

Is there any control over thoughts, any, whatsoever?

None whatsoever. Any sense of control is itself a thought about having sense of control.

Are thoughts more ‘done’ than wind? I mean there is no blower of a wind, it’s not done, it’s a happening, so are thoughts more ‘done’ or controlled / controllable than wind?

That's a beautiful way of representing the two - there is no difference between the wind and thoughts. Both arise/happen but there is no winder winding and no thinker thinking.

[Vivien]

Hi Jordan,

Thank you for your replies.

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?
Any doubt?

V

[JedTheRed]

And thank you Vivien, no doubt is present - it all seems so simple! Thank you for all of your help in this realisation. I will continue to notice and let it unfold.

Thank you so much!
Jordan