Finding Freedom

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry - give me a couple of days on this one - these are really testing me which is great - I really want to give the exercises some justice

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry

Please bear with me - i have been really busy with a house move - i am doing the exercises & they are making a difference - please give me a couple more days to respond officially

Regards

[Harry]

All good! Thanks for letting me know. Best of luck with the move; I look forward to hearing from you

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry - yes I think I get your point - only actual direct experience is ever known & experienced - the content of thought is imagination & is indirect - we have labels that refer to objects that are flashed onto the screen of our mind & we automatically state we can experience that object but this is 2nd hand to the actual direct experience - it is subtle but there is a difference - by these terms apple & body are not known

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry - yes I think I get your point - only actual direct experience is ever known & experienced - the content of thought is imagination & is indirect - we have labels that refer to objects that are flashed onto the screen of our mind & we automatically state we can experience that object but this is 2nd hand to the actual direct experience - it is subtle but there is a difference - by these terms apple & body are not known

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry - yes I think I get your point - only actual direct experience is ever known & experienced - the content of thought is imagination & is indirect - we have labels that refer to objects that are flashed onto the screen of our mind & we automatically state we can experience that object but this is 2nd hand to the actual direct experience - it is subtle but there is a difference - by these terms apple & body are not known

[Harry]

Hi Asterisk 1,

Great to hear that you understand the primacy of direct experience; good work!

There’s a tendency of theorising in your posts which we should necessarily address. I don’t need an explanation from you of why thought content is not direct experience, or any general concepts about the nature of experience.

What I am asking for is for a simple, direct relay of your experience as it is.
It is for this reason that it’s so important to please quote and answer the questions I have written in blue text. This way, it is easier to answer from a meditative LOOKING and not from thinking.

Have a look at these two resources. They are very clear and direct about how to LOOK.

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c

https://www.liberationunleashed.com/res ... ar-seeker/


Once you have done that, please reformat your previous response directly from your firsthand, actual experience; quoting and answering the questions I have written.

Thank you!

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry
Points Taken – I am committed to this work even if it I get uncomfortable feedback - I have watched the videos so I’ll try & keep my responses to what I actually see - for beginners sometimes this is not as simple as it sounds – I am sure you understand.

tbh I am finding this this exercise a little difficult to understand so hopefully you can push me in the right direction

FYI - i cant use the Quotes whilst on my Mobile so i have to wait until i get home to respond which may delay my responses - also i cant use the Preview button as it deletes all my text

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Body refers to Sensations & Senses ( Touch , see , Hear etc .)

This is on the right track, as the label ‘body’ does refer to sensations which are actually experienced, however there is an important distinction to be made: there is no actual experience of ‘body’, there is the experience of ‘Thought Arising’.

‘Body’ is the content of the thought.

‘Thought Arising’ is experienced, but a ‘body’ is not.

Sensations are actually experienced, but a ‘body’ is not.

Is this clear to you

So if we review Direct Experience in terms of the “label body”
Hearing – Breath in Nostrils
Feeling (Sensation ) - Tongue in Mouth , Heartbeat , Body against the chair , tingling sensation in feet
Tasting – No Taste
Smelling – No Smell
Thoughts Arising – thoughts arising about the body

The label “Body “ is not experienced - however It is seeing that I need more clarification on - if I look at my hand for example I see a hand colour of skin , shape of hand , skin , veins etc - if I didn’t know the name of this – I would still see the same thing regardless of the label

Same thing for Apple

When looking at an apple, there's colour; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."

What is known for sure?
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched) Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

Agree with all the statements above - thsi is what i am experiencing - however It is seeing again - if I look at an apple I see not just the colour but the shape , size , depth etc - if I didn’t know the name of this – I would still see the same thing - I may not know what it is called but the object would be the same

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

The label "Apple" cannot be found in my Direct Experience

Can you help me clarify where I am not getting it please ?

[Harry]

Hi Asterisk 1,

Thanks for your responses, I think we’re getting closer and closer, so your commitment I suspect will be of great benefit.

FYI - i cant use the Quotes whilst on my Mobile so i have to wait until i get home to respond which may delay my responses - also i cant use the Preview button as it deletes all my text

Thanks for letting me know about those technical issues.

I would still see the same thing regardless of the label

Watch out for thought-based explanations about what ‘would’ be seen. Try to stay with what IS seen.

The label “Body” is not experienced - however it is seeing that I need more clarification on’ if I look at my hand for example I see a hand colour of skin, shape of hand, skin , veins etc - if I didn’t know the name of this – I would still see the same thing regardless of the label

Look at your hand.


Is what is seen made of anything more than colour?

If you didn’t add the labels (or if you didn’t know the names, as you said) would you see anything more than colour?

Is it ever possible to see something other than colour?

Are hand, shape, skin, veins, anything more than the words and content of Thoughts Arising?


Here’s another example…


University

We call it "university", but it's composed of buildings, books, professors & an ever-changing parade of students & changing class schedules. But where is "university" in Actual Experience? Nowhere.

[Asterisk1]

Watch out for thought-based explanations about what ‘would’ be seen. Try to stay with what IS seen.

Point Taken - please keep me on track – I think I am picking up now when I seem to add opinion to what actually IS

Look at your hand.

Is what is seen made of anything more than colour?

If you didn’t add the labels (or if you didn’t know the names, as you said) would you see anything more than colour?

Is it ever possible to see something other than colour?

I think I am getting this point – I can only differentiate anything that is seen like size, shape etc because of a change of colour against some other backdrop - so if I look around the room I can only see objects because they are a different colour to something else – I have never thought of it that way

The reverse of this is true – apologies this is an opinion !! if everything was the exact same colour I wouldn’t be able to make anything out

Are hand, shape, skin, veins, anything more than the words and content of Thoughts Arising?

Yes I agree they are just labels & do not define a DE


Here’s another example…

University

We call it "university", but it's composed of buildings, books, professors & an ever-changing parade of students & changing class schedules. But where is "university" in Actual Experience? Nowhere.

Yes I agree again

[Harry]

Hi Asterisk 1,

I think I am picking up now when I seem to add opinion to what actually IS

That’s great to hear: nice work!

I think I am getting this point – I can only differentiate anything that is seen like size, shape etc because of a change of colour against some other backdrop - so if I look around the room I can only see objects because they are a different colour to something else – I have never thought of it that way

That’s the idea. As always, it’s important to stay in direct experience, not in thoughts/theories/principles/opinions.

Yes I agree they are just labels & do not define a DE

Good. Have a go of this next exercise and let me know what you find….


Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry - I am responding from my mobile - please give me a couple more days with this exercise - I have guests staying over the Xmas Period - i have been doing the exercise & even expanded it to daily activities such as walking - in essence in my experience i cannot find a "doer" a "controller" - it just seems to happen on it's own & i have no explanation - I'll give my responses using quotes in a couple of days - i would like to thank you very much for your time - i really do appreciate that .

[Harry]

Hi Asterisk,

No worries, take your time - sounds like you’re doing great.
Thanks for your message and your persistence!
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.

[Harry]

in essence in my experience i cannot find a "doer" a "controller" - it just seems to happen on it's own & i have no explanation

That’s exactly right. Everything arises spontaneously, all on its own. Good work!

[Asterisk1]

Hi Harry

Please see my responses

Palm Flipping Exercise
1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.
Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:
How is the movement controlled?

In my DE I cannot find a “controller “ - I am just watching & it appears to be moving on its own

Does a thought control it?

In my DE I cannot find a thought that controls the movement of my hand

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

– I cannot find a “controller”

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Tbh I don’t know – I have looked for a “controller” & I cant find one - it appears to happen on its own

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

In my DE I cannot find a thought that “ made the decision” to move my hand

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Again - Tbh I don’t know – I have looked for a “controller” & I cant find one - it appears to happen on its own

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

In a word No

I have extended this exercise to walking & driving & the answers are the same – I cannot find a “controller”

This exercise is superb which I am now incorporating into as many activities as I can throughout the day