Let's do this

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

I can say for sure I haven't attained stream entry yet,

oh, i'm not arguing with that, but tell me, how do you know, that you haven't if you haven't?
What criteria are you looking for that will tell you that you have?

It still just seems like I'm a decision maker though, at least partially for thoughts

i get that is seems that way. If you examine it, does what it seem hold up?

I now see through the knot better, but nowhere near completely.

By "completely", do you mean constantly? ..or does examination only reveal a partial clarity?

The buying into a separate entity for me still exists

Of course it does. You have to behave AS IF the world and people are separate. How else are you going to navigate daily existence. It's called being human.
"buying into it." Getting lost in it, this will change in time (ha) The brain needs to evolve (re-wire)

Nothing mystical,

Hahaha. No, nothing mystical. (yet everything a mystery) Forget the woo woo stuff. It's very ordinary (after the initial novelty wears off)
A common response is that nothing changes, but everything is different.

completely based on conditions from the entire past.

"conditions" are a useful story. They no more exist from the perspective of the organism (with the label Ashton) than do the future or the past. It is as simplistic as cause and effect.
Good for description and explanation, but not actual.

I just really dont think Ive recognized no self,

How do you recognise what is not there?
But what of the story of self? The characteristics that you identify with?

with love

vince

[ashton]

What criteria are you looking for that will tell you that you have?

One of the main criteria Ive heard is, that "out there" and "in here" basically merge, or to put it better, there is no longer that duality- it is just sensations.

In my direct experience, that hasn't happened yet. Of course, this could be false like anything else you can hear, but if it is true, I haven't seen this occur in my direct experience.

how do you know, that you haven't if you haven't?

I cannot know through direct experience that I haven't if I haven't. This is like the tree falling in the woods example, there is no way for me to know that a tree has or hasn't fallen (experientially), if I wasn't there.

Me: It still just seems like I'm a decision maker though, at least partially for thoughts
You: If you examine it, does what it seems hold up?

I think this may be what is partially holding me up. I don't think we've done an exercise that gets me looking into my direct experience to realize that there is no chooser. The only thing I can remember we did was, basically look at conditions, and how they lay the foundation for what happens in direct experience. But for me, that exercise seems like it uses thought/logic/reasoning vs just direct experience itself.

I dont know if it is possible to come up with a direct experience exercise to see there is no chooser, but I think if we could, it would help me greatly lol

Now to the question, all I know to examine regarding this, is conditions, which, to me seems to use more logic/reasoning than complete, raw direct experience. When I examine it this way, what seems doesn't hold up, but it seems as though it doesn't stick because it is more based on reasoning. Like, I cannot directly experience prior conditions (in the moment). Obviously, I did directly experience some of them in the past, which is memory of de, but, it still just doesn't hit, probably because it is more putting the puzzle together based off memory, and not what is happening now.

Me: I now see through the knot better, but nowhere near completely.
You: By "completely", do you mean constantly? ..or does examination only reveal a partial clarity?

Do you mean constantly: This is true, I dont see through it constantly, but even more true, I probably only see partially through the knot for maybe a couple percent of my day.

Or does examination only reveal a partial clarity: Yes, I think the chooser part needs more examination, and anything to do with still perceiving things as "out there" vs "in here"

"conditions" are a useful story. They no more exist from the perspective of the organism (with the label Ashton) than do the future or the past. It is as simplistic as cause and effect.
Good for description and explanation, but not actual.

Exactly!! Conditions are all a part of the past, and so, when I examine whether or not there is a chooser, the only exercise I use is to look at conditions (basically, the past). It would be similar if I tried to use the future as part of my examination... there is no direct experience. I think it is exactly this holding me back, me investigating conditions is like investigating the future, even if I tried to incorporate de. It just doesn't stick. I think I need an exercise to demonstrate there is no chooser, that calls on a higher percentage of looking at the present, vs the past (conditions).

Me: I just really dont think Ive recognized no self,
You: How do you recognise what is not there?

Experientially, I cannot recognize something that isn't there. Its like the tree falling in the woods example again, I cannot say experientially that a tree fell, if it wasn't there in my experience.

I 100% get that, but when I apply it to no-self, its just so hard, like, I can see the whole tree example clearly, but I just cant see no-self clearly. I really dont know why

But what of the story of self? The characteristics that you identify with?

I get what you are pointing to. All there is, is identifying with the stories of a self, which is all just thoughts.

Basically it occurs like this: Something happens like physical sensations of touching this keyboard. This IS direct experience. All that is happening 24/7 is direct experience. But it is impossible to identify with a direct experience (5 sense doors). What happens is, a sense door gets triggered, and then it gets stored in memory, and at "a later date", a thought memory comes up remembering the direct experience, and, this thought is what is being identified with. I am identifying with a memory (thought sensation), not identifying with the actual direct experience.

The mind is so clever though, bringing up visual and auditory thought sensations, and then, when these occur, so do physical sensations that may resemble what happened in the ACTUAL direct experience that generated the memory in the first place.

All of these combined, the auditory/visual thought sensations, and the physical response, NOT TO MENTION, all of this was probably triggered by being in a situation that vaguely resembles the DE that generated the memory happening in the first place.

It just happens so quickly, fluidly, and in such a whole mind/body experience manner, that, it is so hard NOT to identify with this whole story. The physical sensations and the environment you are in, that triggers this whole memory process, although not a part of the thought story, just sort of adds to it, gives it context, and, makes the thought story make enough sense to identify with.

And it is precisely these 2 things happening in conjunction, you now have a thought story that makes sense, and physical sensations to go with it, it just makes you really believe in a self.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

'evening Ash,
This is not saying that you have or have not woken up.
It is here for consideration. Consideration of the experiencing that is inhibited by being sucked into the pop zen stories about what awakening actually is. You would be less than human if you didn't experience separation from the world and other people.
Being awake is recognizing that as a persistent illusion.
Whether or not a 'shift' has occurred is not a matter of opinion, but to consider it is to enter storyland.
Now, this is a big one... As we have seen, story is a companion to every experience, and (almost) every experience is a response to story.
Among the many seekers that i have worked with on this forum, there have been some that i would describe as awake in every way but one. That is that they didn't believe that they are.
Consequently, they were responding to a different story, so, many of the new behaviors that would have been instilled by the brain rewiring eluded them.
What are the criteria that determine if a 'shift' has happened? (rhetorical question)
Well, most people would like to have had an epiphany-type experience. They see bells and whistles as proof that it has happened, but for many, it doesn't happen this way.
There was also a belief in seekers, that if we were to 'awaken', that these things would change instantly and completely.
The stories of perpetual bliss, may or may not be true. They are certainly not experienced here, nor in anybody that i have related to.
There was a time when even on reflection it was believed that the stories about ourselves were actual. That we were in control. That truth was a thing. That we were inherently good or bad.
If, on reflection, these things are recognized as a fallacy, if they are recognized to be illusions, then a 'shift' has happened.
At LU there is the need for this to be an experiential shift. Not just intellectual. What does that mean?
The intellectual recognitions are usually accompanied by an experiential component, but without doubt, it takes time to re-condition many years of habitual responding.
If there is a feeling component to the recognition of the illusions, then behavior changes. Responses to the illusions when they present become different.
Knowing that we don't have control over everything that happens means that we don't beat ourselves up over a perceived failure. We don't deny the consequences of it, but neither do we dwell on how it could/should have been. We move on quickly.
Can you see how carrying a story that you are not there yet, inhibits this experiential component from happening ?
This is not to say "fake it until you make it." You only have to ask yourself "do you actually grok the nature of the illusions?"
If you honestly do, then be open to the behavioral changes, the consequences of Seeing. (what is actual and what is story)
You will find that from both yourself and those around you, a resistance to change. For this reason, i advise you to not advertise what you are going through. For a while at least, only talk about it with others that have trod this path.


with love

vince

[ashton]

Hi vince :)

There was a time when even on reflection it was believed that the stories about ourselves were actual. That we were in control. That truth was a thing. That we were inherently good or bad.

This is true. I think maybe this is also a place I am weak. For me, I can see that sensations just happen, but, it still just seems as though they are happening to me if you will.

Like, even though I recognize there is a thought or a smell or a sound, I still recognize it as happening to me (a separate self). I am seeing better though, how, I have no control over these sensations- but I still just cant get over the fact that there is no separate self.

I think you know what Im trying to say. Like, this mind/body is the centralized point where all of this experiencing happens, and, I think because of this, I take this center point as being "me" or a separate self. How do I see that it isn't, it just seems like there is something more that needs to be investigated for me to recognize that this isn't true. (please help me with this lol)

Can you see how carrying a story that you are not there yet, inhibits this experiential component from happening ?

Yes, 1000%. But I humbly think that I need help with what I said above. There has to be realism, I literally know exactly what you mean, and you are right. I just think that what I said above is inhibiting me more than carrying a story that Im not there yet. (I know what I said just now can be looked at as inhibiting the experiential component from happening, but I do not find this to be true in my de- Im still making experiential strides from the things that have been recognized).

ask yourself "do you actually grok the nature of the illusions?"

A lot of it in my experience really isnt intuitive at all, lots of investigating has to happen for me to see the nature of illusions

If you honestly do, then be open to the behavioral changes, the consequences of Seeing. (what is actual and what is story)

Ive been open to this from the get-go, really seeing how perception is changed if you will. Perception change in the sense of seeing story as story, when it wasn't seen this way in the past.

You will find that from both yourself and those around you, a resistance to change. For this reason, i advise you to not advertise what you are going through. For a while at least, only talk about it with others that have trod this path.

Fully agree lol

A Stream-enterer (Sotāpanna) is free from:
* 1. Identity view, the belief that there is an unchanging self or soul in the five impermanent skandhas
* 2. Attachment to rites and rituals
* 3. Doubt about the teachings
* 4. Sensual desire
* 5. Ill will

I also wanted to bring up this from a reply back a ways. In my de, none of these fetters have been taken away or lessened.

Ash

[ashton]

Hi vince :)

There was a time when even on reflection it was believed that the stories about ourselves were actual. That we were in control. That truth was a thing. That we were inherently good or bad.

This is true. I think maybe this is also a place I am weak. For me, I can see that sensations just happen, but, it still just seems as though they are happening to me if you will.

Like, even though I recognize there is a thought or a smell or a sound, I still recognize it as happening to me (a separate self). I am seeing better though, how, I have no control over these sensations- but I still just cant get over the fact that there is no separate self.

I think you know what Im trying to say. Like, this mind/body is the centralized point where all of this experiencing happens, and, I think because of this, I take this center point as being "me" or a separate self. How do I see that it isn't, it just seems like there is something more that needs to be investigated for me to recognize that this isn't true. (please help me with this lol)

Can you see how carrying a story that you are not there yet, inhibits this experiential component from happening ?

Yes, 1000%. But I humbly think that I need help with what I said above. There has to be realism, I literally know exactly what you mean, and you are right. I just think that what I said above is inhibiting me more than carrying a story that Im not there yet. (I know what I said just now can be looked at as inhibiting the experiential component from happening, but I do not find this to be true in my de- Im still making experiential strides from the things that have been recognized).

ask yourself "do you actually grok the nature of the illusions?"

A lot of it in my experience really isnt intuitive at all, lots of investigating has to happen for me to see the nature of illusions

If you honestly do, then be open to the behavioral changes, the consequences of Seeing. (what is actual and what is story)

Ive been open to this from the get-go, really seeing how perception is changed if you will. Perception change in the sense of seeing story as story, when it wasn't seen this way in the past.

You will find that from both yourself and those around you, a resistance to change. For this reason, i advise you to not advertise what you are going through. For a while at least, only talk about it with others that have trod this path.

Fully agree lol

A Stream-enterer (Sotāpanna) is free from:
* 1. Identity view, the belief that there is an unchanging self or soul in the five impermanent skandhas
* 2. Attachment to rites and rituals
* 3. Doubt about the teachings
* 4. Sensual desire
* 5. Ill will

I also wanted to bring up this from a reply back a ways. In my de, none of these fetters have been taken away or lessened.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

'evening Ash,

I can see that sensations just happen, but, it still just seems as though they are happening to me if you will.

..and it will always be this way. It's an illusion that's built into the human organism.
What? do you expect that suddenly your sense organs are going to start working differently.

I still recognize it as happening to me

Do you? ..or do you recognize that it SEEMS TO BE happening to you?
Remember that illusion that you looked at https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/ ... larization Even after you read what was actually there, the illusion persisted, didn't it. ..but what was different? (rhetorical question) It was that you now knew that your senses were telling you something that was not actual.
Now here's a big one. You have investigated and discovered something, yet you ignore that and believe your habitual reasoning.
When i hit a golf ball and i think i know where it landed, what do i do when in about 90% of cases, it's not there when i get there. Do i believe that it's gone, or do i look around? My eyes constantly lie to me (maybe it's my mind) Often it is 20 or more yards away from where it think i saw it land.

But I still just can't get over the fact that there is no separate self.

Well, where is it? Has a surgeon ever found one?
There is a self (not separate or inherent) and it is the identification with the story of Ashton. The emotional and physical responses to what is believed in that story. Self is of course the label applied to the concept that this identification is grouped under.

Like, this mind/body is the centralized point where all of this experiencing happens, and, I think because of this, I take this center point as being "me" or a separate self. How do I see that it isn't, it just seems like there is something more that needs to be investigated for me to recognize that this isn't true.

..but it is true.
You do that, and that's not going to change. ..but you miss that it's an interpretation. That it's not locked in stone. That it's habitual responding to a fairy story. That the fairy story is the reason for any suffering. The reason for maladaptive behavior.

Im still making experiential strides from the things that have been recognized).

Yes, me too. 10 years later and discovery keeps going. (i imagine that it will never stop)

There has to be realism,

Oh, you think that there is something real? We will explore this later.

lots of investigating has to happen for me to see the nature of illusions

..and once you know that something is an illuson, do you need to investigate it every time? ..or do you recognize that it is an illusion and keep going?

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hi vince!!

So, just about 30min ago, I basically did an exercise you have said before, but I rephrased it, and now it is getting me looking at my direct experience much more clearly.

Ive been saying "Is Ashton the hearer... or is hearing happening", "Is Ashton the feeler... or is feeling (physical sensation) happening".

Just doing this for the past 15min or so has been useful for me. I then tried saying "Is Ashton the thinker... or is thinking happening", and then the thoughts stopped- so it was hard to see. But then I asked "Is Ashton the stopper (of thoughts)... or is stopping (of thoughts) happening".

Anyways, this has got me looking at DE MUCH more clearly. Beforehand, the whole happening thing was more logical based than DE based. I think I am going to continue what Im doing, and I think it will show me directly that there is no chooser/decision maker, without needing to think about it.

Now to your questions:

Do you? ..or do you recognize that it SEEMS TO BE happening to you?

The exercise Im doing is helping me to see that sensations are just happening.

Now here's a big one. You have investigated and discovered something, yet you ignore that and believe your habitual reasoning.
When i hit a golf ball and i think i know where it landed, what do i do when in about 90% of cases, it's not there when i get there. Do i believe that it's gone, or do i look around? My eyes constantly lie to me (maybe it's my mind) Often it is 20 or more yards away from where it think i saw it land.

Lol this is a good analogy, thank you for saying this. Again, this exercise is definitely making me turn away from habitual reasoning, and I can call upon this exercise pretty easily whenever I want to. Even though it is investigation, it is nowhere near as time consuming as some of the other investigations.

Well, where is it? Has a surgeon ever found one?

I cannot find a self through DE, and I know this, but, I think repetitively doing this exercise will make me 100% more confident in my answer, and more able to put the "seems to be" to the side.

Me: Like, this mind/body is the centralized point where all of this experiencing happens, and, I think because of this, I take this center point as being "me" or a separate self. How do I see that it isn't, it just seems like there is something more that needs to be investigated for me to recognize that this isn't true.

You: ..but it is true.
You do that, and that's not going to change. ..but you miss that it's an interpretation. That it's not locked in stone. That it's habitual responding to a fairy story. That the fairy story is the reason for any suffering. The reason for maladaptive behavior.

You are right, I did not look into it enough. I think the sort of glue holding everything together is, that there is some sort of manager. And this is complete bull shit, I know LOL. This exercise is experientially allowing me to see that there is not a manager, how can one manage things they cant even control?

Im not holding myself back when I say this, but I think with time doing the exercise I mentioned above, I will have no option to face the truth that: Sensations happen on their own, there is no chooser/decision maker, and no manager.

..and once you know that something is an illuson, do you need to investigate it every time? ..or do you recognize that it is an illusion and keep going?

Man, this is tough. I think with anything, there is a tipping point, a time when the minority thoughts (of truth) finally outweigh the majority of thoughts (fiction). Like with santa. It happens at a distinct time when it is finally realized, but, all through that process, doubt was being built up, which paved the way for it to be realized absolutely in 1 distinct moment. I dont think this is any different. (Thought content, i know)

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

I think I am going to continue what I'm doing, and I think it will show me directly that there is no chooser/decision-maker, without needing to think about it.

This is good stuff. Saying that it's just happening is really a way of saying that it's a mystery how or why it happens. It's saying that the coming together of the happening is so complex and infinitely complicated that it can't be known. Happenings happen...

turn away from habitual reasoning,

Yes. That reasoning is always based on incomplete perception.

I think with time doing the exercise I mentioned above, I will have no option to face the truth that: Sensations happen on their own, there is no chooser/decision-maker, and no manager.

Bring on that tipping point. "Tipping point" brought back memories for me. When i realized that i couldn't remain a seeker and wake up. It was one or the other. A wave of acceptance washed over me. THIS IS IT! kept going around in my head and then there were no more questions. Just observations.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Morning vince!!

Ooh man last night was great. I was doing the exercise I said in the earlier reply, and then, things started making sense EXPERIENTIALLY!!

I was looking at sensations, and all of the sudden, the way I looked at it changed. Now when I look, theres different sense fields. Like, a sound field, or feel (touch) field, or thought field, etc.

For maybe 3 or 5 instances of looking at sensations, I experientially saw that there is NOTHING behind these sensations. Literally, a thought arises, and theres only thought, nothing behind it. The only thing I can directly experience are these sense fields, happening to a body, but other than that, there is nothing else.

Before this, it was if I was actually looking for no-self... which makes no sense, its nowhere to be found. Now, I just look at sensations, and in doing so, it is (sometimes) very clear/obvious, that there is this sort of devoidness or emptiness, in that, all I can directly experience are these sensations, and nothing else (of which, I used to always think there was something else).

Im going to keep doing this exercise, it seems the bucket is starting to tip. I think all it needs is time and repitition. With this, I think realizing there is no chooser will become obvious, but Ill just take things as they go.

Now to your questions lol:

Yes. That reasoning is always based on incomplete perception.

Exactly!! Now, this habitual reasoning is going to have no choice to start fading. As the perception gets more complete, this habitual response will have to fall

Bring on that tipping point. "Tipping point" brought back memories for me. When i realized that i couldn't remain a seeker and wake up. It was one or the other. A wave of acceptance washed over me. THIS IS IT! kept going around in my head and then there were no more questions. Just observations

Im starting to feel this way too, it feels like it must be around the corner (even if its a longer bend than normal)

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

Before this, it was if I was actually looking for no-self... which makes no sense

Yes. There's a difference to looking for what is not there and looking at what is there.

Im going to keep doing this exercise, it seems the bucket is starting to tip.

Good stuff. Keep it going...

with great love

vince

[ashton]

Hi vince

Good stuff. Keep it going...

I'll keep you posted and send a reply if/when I find/notice anything. Of course feel free to reply back even if I havent

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Ok, do check in every couple of days please.

vince

[ashton]

Hi vince, sorry for the wait.

For the first several days, nothing.

As of the past couple days, I've noticed that sound and physical sensation, but mainly sound has gotten understood a decent amount better (when im looking).

Sound is more so seen as just sound, no additions to it. Ive also noticed that with thoughts, just like how seeing happens with sight, Ive noticed this can be possible with thoughts, but it doesnt happen as often as other sense doors.

And just like how when im hearing, and how then a thought comes in that makes hearing stop, the same happens with thought. A couple of thoughts may be seen, but then some sort of thought takes this thoughtness away very quickly, and it is a lot harder to see clearly compared to other sense doors. As this happens, there is also usually a physical sensation that brings me "away from bare experience".

Like, I can tell there are thoughts just happening, and then at the same time, two things happen, theres always this same type of physical sensation and a certain type of thought that takes me away from seeing thoughts as happening. Its weird. The same also happens with other sense doors, but it seems it has lessened with time, and I can stay with the sense door im looking at for longer before this comes up and takes me away so to speak.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

sorry for the wait.

No problems. As long as you keep the momentum going.

just like how when I'm hearing, and how then a thought comes in that makes hearing stop, the same happens with thought.

If I were a Zen master and you were a student, I would hit you across the shoulders with a big stick.
These exercises were meant to show you something, but instead you have become enamoured with the exercise. (you always were taken with de)
What do you think that the exercise was meant to reveal to you?

with love

vince

[ashton]

Me: just like how when I'm hearing, and how then a thought comes in that makes hearing stop, the same happens with thought.

You: If I were a Zen master and you were a student, I would hit you across the shoulders with a big stick.
These exercises were meant to show you something, but instead you have become enamoured with the exercise. (you always were taken with de)
What do you think that the exercise was meant to reveal to you?

I think the exercise is meant to reveal that there is no-self, nothing other than the sensations I am looking at, whether it is a thought, a sound, a feeling, etc. And even that there is no decision maker.

What I was saying with my reply was, when the seeing stops (no matter which sense door), it is like the closing of a curtain, and, when the seeing stops, the investigation withers.

I'll be looking and am in a sort of flow where I am witnessing sounds, and see there is nothing but sound. But then the seeing stops, and this flow goes away, the mind comes back in, and it isn't seen clearly anymore.

I guess what Ive been aiming to do with this exercise is, to get better on all fronts of seeing all sense doors clearly. That way, when another sensation from a different sense door would nornally disrupt my flow and take me from seeing clearly, I could instead just have smooth transitions.

Basically, it seems like the transitions are holding me back, and when they occur, clear seeing fades away.

Not sure if this makes sense, Ill make a flow chart:

This normally happens:
Seeing sound clearly ---> thought or physical sensation arise ---> a sort of attachment to wanting to get back to seeing sound clearly, even though the thought or physical sensation is the current sensation to be understood (bad transition)

What I want to happen:
Seeing sound clearly ---> thought or physical sensation arise ---> no attachment to viewing sound correctly, seemlessly transition to viewing this new thought or physical sensation clearly

Ash