The Gate

Hi Leona,

Luchana, I keep trying (every day, on & off throughout the day) to see that there is no 'I'. I'm not looking right as I can't see anything other than the 'I' and I don't know how to properly look. How can I effectively investigate this riddle?

I get frustrated, I get upset, I get disheartened. I get nowhere... 'I' 'I' 'I' !

Wow, don't worry, you are the Gate, you are on the right place.
Notice that there is no such thing like a "No I" There is no "No Santa at all"
Thoughts try to serve the truth :) but do they really?
So, there is No I, is a powerfull pointer.

Notice what is says that this is you? And notice also is it true, is there such thing like "I" in this thought?


Also keep notising during the day if a thought is about something which is REALLY happening at the moment, or it is imagination only? Not real?




Much love
Luchana

Thanks Luchana, I will look into this...

Did you see my previous post? (I think you may have missed it)

Dear Luchana,
I'm finding your answer really frustrating. I feel it's not specific enough. Just feels woolly.

So, there is No I, is a powerfull pointer.

That may be true but it's not helpful. Just feels vague and directionless. I feel that I need you to be more specific, if that's possible?

Notice what is says that this is you? And notice also is it true, is there such thing like "I" in this thought?

I have been looking in this way so repeating the same questions is not helping me to see more clearly. I see that thoughts, images, feelings, sensations together create a sense of 'me' and that if I seperate them into individual items and really look, that each is simply a thing happening, and in isloation they are not 'me'.
However, I still experience a 'me' despite this recognition.


(please see that I sometimes write more than one post per day ; )

Much love,
Leona

Hi again ; )

Notice what is says that this is you? And notice also is it true, is there such thing like "I" in this thought?

I've really been exploring this notion of 'I' and looking at everything inside that has the feeling of 'me' in it. Each time I realise that the sense of 'I' is seen through, then another 'I' feeling/thought/image/sensation comes up and I explore that, there is an endless appearance of the apparent self, but looking at this will continue and many 'I' thoughts are now being seen through as just a feeling or thought etc.

What I can't see through is thoughts that sound like my own personal voice eg words that I vocalise in my head that have an 'I' feeling, this is more difficult to unpack. Maybe it's a real thing and can't be seen through? Any pointers with this please Luchana?

Also something subtle I have noticed but might be imagined, is that when sounds are listened to, sometimes they are heard inside my head with my own voice. It's hard to explain.

Also keep notising during the day if a thought is about something which is REALLY happening at the moment, or it is imagination only? Not real?

Mostly imaginal thoughts are present with occasional REAL thoughts triggered when somthing is happening eg. recognising my car lift arriving/greeting people/ordering from a lunch menu/inquiry questions when the 'I' is investigated etc. Everything else is narration/labelling/projection/musings etc.
Will do more noticing of this tomorrow... plus more 'I' searching...

Night night,
Leona x

Hi Leona,

thank you for your messages. Yes, I've seen that there are two and now three which is awesome! Please, feel free when there is an impuls to write - just wirte. I will not going to reply to each of them, just will spot on which needs closer looking. This of course doens't mean that I'm dismissing your words or your experience at the moment.

I will able to give you a reply later today here in the forum, but we will see each other in a while anyway :-)

Much love,
Luchana

Oh Luchana, thank you thank you! for the beautigul sharing. The feeling of wonder and joy and aliveness is returning : ) xx

Hi Leona,

Oh Luchana, thank you thank you! for the beautigul sharing. The feeling of wonder and joy and aliveness is returning : ) xx

You are most welcome! It's felt like joy also here.

Look at this sweet feeling of wonder and joy.

Does this feeling belong to someone?



And here is an exercise that I've mentioned today:

Take two glases with different beverages (milk and water, or juise and coke, or coffe and tea). It could be also something else..
Put these glasses in front of you. Close your eyes for a min and than look at glasses and choose one.

Look very carefully - the way you look today the hands

As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?


How the decision is made which glass to choose?

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Do ‘you’ choose?

Can a chooser be located?

Have fun :-)

Much love,
Luchana

hi

Look at this sweet feeling of wonder and joy.

Does this feeling belong to someone?

No, it was enjoyed with no ownership. But it was transient.

This morning the full weight of the 'I' had returned and I feel bound within the confines of the 'me' once again. I'm now a sad, disappointed 'I' that wanted the freedom to last! I understand that it will oscillate until it's dropped completely, but the contrast feel harsh and depressing.
I explored this feeling/sensation/thought of 'I-ness', which was heavey and sad, but was unable to see through it, and then a little later it dropped again without any apparent 'doing' on my part, but for only a brief period. So am back to 'me'.

Not in the mood for an excercise today, tired from lack of sleep so just want to be quiet and read Elena's book.

Sending love,
L x

OK let's have a go...

As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of taking glasses, puting something in them (etc) when 'you' control the process?

There is no engagement with a 'self' here, which is especially easy to see when undertaking paractical actions. However, when choice is involved I get a bit confused. I know a self is not required in choosing and choosing happens anyway.

How the decision is made which glass to choose?

One is a cold cup of tea, the other a glass of sparkling mineral water.

Somehow I know that choosing simply happens, but how is a decision made with no self cos it clearly does? Thoughts/images/sensations arise that lead to a decision, and then automatic action occurs naturally.

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Do ‘you’ choose?

Can a chooser be located?

Well, because I know I don't like cold tea the action to avoid it is automatic. But it feels like a choice and a preference arise which seem to influence proceedings.
But what decides this if the 'I' and 'choice' don't exist?? -all very confusing and my mind's about to explode, which is probably a good thing!

Many thanks,
Leona

Hi Leona,

This morning the full weight of the 'I' had returned and I feel bound within the confines of the 'me' once again. I'm now a sad, disappointed 'I' that wanted the freedom to last! I understand that it will oscillate until it's dropped completely, but the contrast feel harsh and depressing.
I explored this feeling/sensation/thought of 'I-ness', which was heavey and sad, but was unable to see through it, and then a little later it dropped again without any apparent 'doing' on my part, but for only a brief period. So am back to 'me'.

I understand how you feel. And It's so normal. It happens like this often with because many of us have the impression that seeing througth the illusion of a separate self is some state with special qualities like peace and calmness where one can be at peace. But seeing no self is not a state to abide in. All states come and go and are subject to change.
It is important to look in this very moment, many moments through the day and never rely on memory. Reality, truth or what is is simple, fresh and always here now when looked.

Can you look now what is it that can returning back?
Is there something real, besides of a thought about something?

Not in the mood for an excercise today, tired from lack of sleep so just want to be quiet and read Elena's book.

Sure, no problem.

There is no engagement with a 'self' here, which is especially easy to see when undertaking paractical actions. However, when choice is involved I get a bit confused. I know a self is not required in choosing and choosing happens anyway.

Confusion is a lovely sign :-)
Keep looking, vigilantly.

Somehow I know that choosing simply happens, but how is a decision made with no self cos it clearly does? Thoughts/images/sensations arise that lead to a decision, and then automatic action occurs naturally.

Exactly. action occurs naturally.

Is there something which is not on automatic?

Well, because I know I don't like cold tea the action to avoid it is automatic. But it feels like a choice and a preference arise which seem to influence proceedings.

How did you choose to not like cold tea?

Did you choose this preference?
How this preference was chosen exactly?
Is it possible to know why certain things are preferred and not the others?
Who or what chooses this preference exactly?


Next:

In the morning when you woke up stay for 5 min in the bed, than leave it.

Look thorough. Be very alert.

Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision" to leave the bad come from?
Is there something giving the "command" to get up ?
Is there controller hiding? If so, where exactly?
What makes the body get up?
Does a ‘you’ command the body?
Does a thought command the body?

During the day investigate also simple daily activities - like what to dress, what to eat, drink and so on. ..?

Is there a place where the commands come from?
Who ot what gives them?
Look for the point where the decision was made.
Is it possible to find such a point?
Can a source be found?

Dig deep.
And have fun :-)


Much love,
Luchana

Hi Luchana,

Can you look now what is it that can returning back?
Is there something real, besides of a thought about something?

I found myself immersed in the story, dense feelings. It's not really a returning back, more of a contraction. Nothing real no, a misplaced perception, a dense 'fog' obscuring what is, heavey with self.

Today I am free and open, no effort, no trying, just seeing what is true, and happy for it. Sunday was Heaven -the body vibrated with joy and energy and I felt as though a cool stream of fresh water ran through my head, but today no bells & whistles just simple freedom, soft and open and really quite ordinary.
Funny, there was a 'derail' this morning when I felt very threatened and dismissed in an email and the 'I' appearred, but a few hrs. later the sky was blue again -metaphorically speaking : )

Exactly. action occurs naturally.
Is there something which is not on automatic?

Yes, the truth of life flows free, the true self is fresh and alive, the aliveness of being.

How did you choose to not like cold tea?
Did you choose this preference?
How this preference was chosen exactly?
Who or what chooses this preference exactly?

Haha good question. I didn't choose!! It just so happens that the personality, Leona, doesn't like cold tea!

Is it possible to know why certain things are preferred and not the others?

You'd better ask her, lol.
No not really, one man's meat is another man's poison.


More tomorrow... x

Hi!
This was really hard for me to answer...

Is there a place where the commands come from?
Who ot what gives them?
Look for the point where the decision was made.
Is it possible to find such a point?
Can a source be found?

First there is a circumstance or situation 'requiring' action eg. getting out of bed cos the alarm goes off/dirty dishes pilling up in the sink etc. An impulse initiates a thought, feeling, sensation etc. to appear (let's call them 'appearances') prompted by the circumstance.
These 'appearances' initiate a decison, followed by action.
But there is no apparent source to be found, it all just happens spontaneously. Although it still feels like I'm doing or steering the doing?? despite no self.
I don't find these questions easy to look at, not entirely convinced by the answers. Cos if there's no self how is this experience of me typing now even experienced?? but it is.
- feel i'm going round in circles.

In the morning when you woke up stay for 5 min in the bed, than leave it.

Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision" to leave the bad come from?
Is there something giving the "command" to get up ?
Is there controller hiding? If so, where exactly?
What makes the body get up?
Does a ‘you’ command the body?
Does a thought command the body?

Yes there is a nudge or command to get up. Thoughts, memories etc. cause the command. Something is in charge and oversees proceedings but I always assumed that was me. Thoughts seem to initiate action.

Think I need help with this enquiry! Do I even need to know the answer if I see there is no self??! Aaargh, confusing.

Love L ; )

Hi Leona,

I found myself immersed in the story, dense feelings. It's not really a returning back, more of a contraction. Nothing real no, a misplaced perception, a dense 'fog' obscuring what is, heavey with self.

Look what is it that can or can't be emmersed in the story?

Today I am free and open, no effort, no trying, just seeing what is true, and happy for it. Sunday was Heaven -the body vibrated with joy and energy and I felt as though a cool stream of fresh water ran through my head, but today no bells & whistles just simple freedom, soft and open and really quite ordinary.

Yes, it's quite ordinary :-)
And all experiences are subject to change. One day we feel open, the other day no.

But does this mean that the self has back?

Is there something which is not on automatic?

Yes, the truth of life flows free, the true self is fresh and alive, the aliveness of being.

What true self means?
How true self is experiencing exactly?
Are there two selves? True and fals?

And the statment above doesn't answering the given question:
can you look again?

Is there something which is not on automatic?

Haha good question. I didn't choose!! It just so happens that the personality, Leona, doesn't like cold tea!

Nice :-) So how certain preferences happen - we have no idea.

Can you cleary see this?


Much love,
Luchana

Hi Leona,

This was really hard for me to answer...

The moment we start to look at how things are at experience it becomes harder :-)
And that is again common.

Can you please do the exercise again when it is possible and reply each question individaully.
Do not wait for a thought to bring the information. Just look how it is really.

There is a reason I gave the questions like this. Do not bulk the replies. Please, reply each question. Spent at least a minute with a question and than write the reply.


Much love,
Luchana

Hi Luchana, thanks for today, always fun and super helpful.

Look what is it that can or can't be emmersed in the story?

Nothing can be immersed in the story because there is no-one to do it. But identifying happens and so do labels.

But does this mean that the self has back?

Good question. It feels that way, and there has been concern it may be true, but it seems to be false as once seen through, there is no self that can return. And when I do mistakenly feel the self has returned, this too passes and was just a condensed feeling that lingered and was identified with. There is never any self or 'I' that can return!

What true self means?

The empty beingness that watches and experiences, when the 'I' is seen through.

How true self is experiencing exactly?

It watches, enjoys the show, in the present moment observing life unfold.

Are there two selves? True and fals?

No there is only one consciousness, the other you refer to is illusory.

Is there something which is not on automatic?

No, this decision is automatic once an impulse and/or thoughts appear from nowhere.

Haha good question. I didn't choose!! It just so happens that the personality, Leona, doesn't like cold tea!

Nice :-) So how certain preferences happen - we have no idea.

Can you cleary see this?

Yes it is seen.

During the day investigate also simple daily activities - like what to dress, what to eat, drink and so on. ..?
Is there a place where the commands come from?

They come from an impulse, then thoughts might follow.

Who ot what gives them?

Nothing that I can see.

Look for the point where the decision was made.
Is it possible to find such a point?

No.

Can a source be found?

No. All I can see is that a circumstance creates an impulse to arise from no apparent place.

In the morning when you woke up stay for 5 min in the bed, than leave it.
Can you see a self making you leave the bed?

No, a self does not exist.

Where does the "decision" to leave the bad come from?

The impulse/thought comes from nowhere discernable.

Is there something giving the "command" to get up ?

A thought does.

Is there controller hiding? If so, where exactly?

The impulse creates the action. I don't see a 'thing' called a controller.

What makes the body get up?

Nothing, it just happens.

Does a ‘you’ command the body?

No cos there is no 'you'.

Does a thought command the body?

Yes, a thought or an impulse.


Thanks Luchana, all questions answered.
Leona x