Clear Seeing

[Anastacia42]

Hi Mal,

I posted Colored Socks on PostTue Jul 20, 2021 4:39 am

It reads:

This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.


Do you see the difference?

Yes, take a couple of days to read "Gateless Gatecrashers" for examples. That should help some.

Much love,

[Lon]

Hello Stacy
This is a revised response to the apple exercise.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?

The thought “apple” arose and the colour and shape of the object registered in thought.

I

s there really an “apple” here or only colour and thought about apple?

The thought ‘apple’ appeared, and the shape and colour were noticed. Without thought and labeling the apple was not there, only what I was able to observe.

Can apple be found in actual experience?

Thoughts and memories of apples were not found in my actual experience as they are separate to actual experience Even knowing a particular fruit to be an “apple” was not in my actual experience so the answer is no.

I have a question for you. How is thought recognised as a thought without content?

Regards Mal

[Anastacia42]

Hi Mal,

Yes, no apple, except in the content of thought. We made it up.

I'm not aware of any way there can be Thought Arising "without content."

What we want to notice is that all thought content is a story that we completely made up, believed & then tenaciously held onto - often causing ourselves & others unnecessary suffering - that is, until we learn to question our untrue thinking. aka lies, and let the truth in. Truth is a slippery word, but one method of finding no self is to ask, "is it true?"

An excellent resource for this is The Work of Byron Katie. I've tried guiding here with that method, but it takes a long time & several exchanges to get through the 4 questions, turn arounds & proofs in this forum.

It's great for Aftercare, when you've seen no self & are sorting out the implications in various areas of your life. For now, let's do what you came for & see there is no "self." It will be like Santa Claus - once you've seen your father step out of the red suit, you can never be fooled again.

I'll wait for your response before suggesting another pointer.Is reading "Gateless Gatecrashers" helping?

Loving,

[Lon]

Hello Stacy
The “apple” exercise was seriously challenging and there was some doubt that I would have something worthwhile to send to you. To find there was no “apple” was a surprise even though the evidence was leading towards this outcome. One other surprise was the amount of effort that this exercise demanded by looking instead of thinking.
I am not that familiar with Byron Katie. I did take a peak at the 4 questions that may be central to her approach after you made reference to her. I agree with you that we keep plugging away at this no-self business as there may be a lot of work ahead. At this point I should ask you if there is a time limit for us to work together.

I did read some of Gateless Gatecrashers which is amazing and delightful. Ilona and Elena seem to have their own unique style which on the surface, is different to what we are doing and therefore I was not sure how helpful it was. I will leave it up to you to decide on the next part of this process as I have no preferences at this point.

In closing , the work of LU and the guides is deeply appreciated.

Regards Mal

[Anastacia42]

Hi Msl

First, no time limit. We can chat until you see. It seems about half the folks who sign up stick with it until they see. Some give up. But guides don't. We know you can see if you look. Sometimes people change guides at times for a fresh perspective.

Yes, I tend b to use a lot of pointer exercises whereas Ilona & Elena were more freestyle. But these exercises did evolve right here at LU and have been used here successfully.

Okay, so that's a lot of discussing let's go back to LOOKING.

When I was guided here by Ilona I was given only one exercise. She told me to look for the place where my butt met the chair & tell her truthfully in actual experience only, no stories, what was found there.

I was also guided outside of LU before that with some pointers I have placed in Dropbox that I can share.

But first the pointer I've come to call "ButtChair." Take a look. What is found? Can you find some "place" where your butt ends & chair begins?

Loving,

[Lon]

Hello Stacy

Take a look at what is found. Can you find some place where your butt ends and chair begins

.

My sense of touch/feel registered something solid under buttock /thighs that might indicate a butt and chair difference. However, without applying descriptive thought and memory there is nothing to define where butt ends and chair begins. What is actually happening is just the activity of sitting.

Regards Mal

[Anastacia42]

Perfect, Mal. Yes.

without applying descriptive thought and memory there is nothing to define where butt ends and chair begins. What is actually happening is just the activity of sitting.

So, that's an accurate analysis or intellectual description of seeing no division between butt & chair. But that's not what will help you SEE. Remember Coloted Socks?

Yes, only sitting. Exactly!

How does it feel to kind of "sink in" to this awareness? That's where SEEING no self is, not in the mind.

Loving,

[Lon]

Hello Stacy

How does it feel to kind of sink into this awareness? That is where SEEING no self is, not in the mind

.

This might prove difficult to describe in words and you may find that my imagination has come out to play. The level of awareness, as experienced in the apple and chair exercises, brought with it a feeling of space ( if space is a feeling.) There was more than space but the experiences may fall outside the realm of feeling . Afterwards the tension of constantly seeking appeared to be absent and life seemed lighter, if that is possible. This could be temporary but maybe there is something percolating. I have often heard the phrase “to rest in awareness” without understanding it, perhaps these exercises have provided a glimpse of what this phrase actually means.

Regards Mal

[Anastacia42]

Yes!

Yes, it's hard to describe. That's why teachers have forever resorted to parables. Yes, it sounds like you are SEEING.

Allow, don't push. You can't control it. It may last for hours, days, weeks or even longer. It is most likely to disappear when you run into an untrue, unquestioned thought and forget to question it but instead believe it.

Okay, it's probably a lot clearer now that there is no "apple." Can you find any separate self anywhere? Has there ever been?

Also, here's a pointer to look at "control. "

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

Yes!

Yes, it's hard to describe. That's why teachers have forever resorted to parables. Yes, it sounds like you are SEEING.

Allow, don't push. You can't control it. It may last for hours, days, weeks or even longer. It is most likely to disappear when you run into an untrue, unquestioned thought and forget to question it but instead believe it.

Okay, it's probably a lot clearer now that there is no "apple." Can you find any separate self anywhere? Has there ever been?

Also, here's a pointer to look at "control. "

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Loving,

[Lon]

Hello Stacy

Can you find any separate self anywhere? Has there ever been?

I read my words that say there is no self and never was. And yet in the shadows the “I” lurks in the background as if it won’t let go. Is this imagination? I think more work is required to settle this great matter once and for all if you are up for it.

How is movement controlled.

Without thought to appear to control movement the movement still occurs, it just happens.

Does thought control it.

You said not to apply thought to this exercise. Therefore thought was absent and played no part in controlling the movement.

Can a controller of any description be located.

A source of control could not be located.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought made the decision to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

My hand performed the exercise independent of thought and I was not aware of a specific decision point. Thought attempted to run the show as it always has done (when not questioned) but it all just happened.

Who or what chose which hand left or right?

Great question. I am ambidextrous and could have chosen either hand. The left hand got the job but I was not aware how choosing came about. The task was allocated and completed without conscious thought.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Mal,

Yes, good. No control, no controller.

And yet in the shadows the “I” lurks in the background as if it won’t let go. Is this imagination? I think more work is required to settle this great matter once and for all if you are up for it.

Check. Is the really some "I" "lurking in the background?" or is it just content of hought says so? Tells a story?

Up for it? Yes, of course. That's why we're here.

You had some difficulty finding Sensations. I want to help you find these more easily.

Find somewhere comfortable to sit. Outdoors may be good, especially if there's a breeze.

Start paying attention to everything that is sensed via touch - wind, butt on chair, clothing, whatever you find.

Pick up an object. Feel it with your hands your nose, maybe your leg, wherever.

Post a few descriptions of these Sensations.

Then toss an untrue statement into your mind. Anything. "The Sun is purple." "4 times 5 equals 42."

Each time look for Sensations in the gut and heart. Describe those internal body Sensations here.


Loving,

[Lon]

Hello Stacy

Check if there is really some “I” lurking in the background

.

You have asked about internal sensations that are recognized in the touch exercise. Well the most notable sensations occurred in the ”I” enquiry, not the touch exercise. Something registered in the abdomen while seeking evidence of a shadowy “I” figure. I cannot say if it was tension or some other sensation. There appeared to be a recognition internally, that this question together with an earlier one regarding no self were “turning “ questions and as such were seriously important in this process. There is no self. There is no lurking “I”.

Each time look for sensations in the gut/heart. Describe those internal body sensation

s.

Cold air on face. Buttocks on chair. Feet touching ground. Clothes on body. Socks on feet. All of this together with the “pick up object” exercise were registered in awareness through the agency of the senses. I was unable to locate or describe any body sensations in this particular exercise. I almost forgot to include the untrue statement. There was a subtle internal reaction in the stomach that occurred, although it was not clear if it was tension or a contraction.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning, Mal

Basically, when we lie or believe a lie or hear a lie something in the body, usually involves the gut or heart, contracts, gets tense, or contracts, even if it only feels subtle.

When we say or think something true, something in that same area expands or relaxes. It feels spacious & light as opposed to tight & heavy.

Mentally or out loud. check this in your own experience. Say a lie and notice the Sensations. Say something true and notice the difference. (If you get heavy. tight contraction feelings, it's not true, even if you thought it was. )

Play with that a little and tell me how it goes.

Loving,

[Lon]

Hello Stacy

Play with that a little and tell me how it goes.

Try as I might, there were no noticeable bodily sensations as a response to making true and untrue statements . Maybe the pretend lie failed to be recognised as a “real” lie and therefore this would explain the absence of a reaction. Or maybe I am failing to observe what is or should be observable. Either way, the body seemed in a neutral state and was unaffected by noticeable sensations that could be identified as contraction or expansion.

Regards Mal