Stop Resisting

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss

How is it going?

Jon

[Nuss]

Hey Jon,

Anything noticeable is worth sharing.

Hearing seems to be the easiest to notice thoughts as separate occurrences rather than being attached to hearing. Seeing is also becoming clearer. Things are starting to be seen more for what they are. Things that are seen that may cause a reaction, for example knocking something off the table, is seen more for what it is and doesn't come with the reaction attached (or at least it comes after). These things look different since there is not the thought/reaction clouding the experience of seeing in that moment.

In our investigation of "self" it's necessary to look at the dimension of the "doer". "Doer" is a big part of the "self" illusion , the idea that "I make things happen" . "I meditate" , even "I make it so that I shouldn't react" .
What do you make of what Im saying in relation to what you wrote above?

This is something that I can understand at the intellectual level and am beginning to notice through direct experience. Depending on the importance of the task or difficulty, it will feel more like there is a "doer." For example, I am currently at a summer camp teaching marching band with practices all day. This feels a little bit more like "doing" because there is a lot to "do." Sometime this relates to time. The stress of completing something before "time runs out," like having 15 minutes left in rehearsal and a lot of "work to do" activates the feeling of a doer.

Also when observing thoughts, there are moments where sensations are felt along with the thought (usually noticed after the thought arises). Thoughts feel separate for the most part, however the idea of a "doer" is sticking in the area of someone "watching the thoughts happen." This ties to an earlier post I made about feeling as if "I am awareness," only this time it is "I am the awareness of my thoughts."

How does that seem to you now?

The expectations only feel like thoughts/stories. The expectations about what will be during and after crossing through the gateless gate are not being held onto.

It's a fascinating question , "how to get out of my own way"? Well, are "you" in "your" way? 

There are only thoughts and stories on top of thoughts and stories. Feelings of anxiety or unworthiness stack on top of the illusion of someone “doing” something, creating a loop of thoughts and stories. There has not been an opportunity to see these in direct experience in the sense of making music however. This response was created through feeling into those expectations and drawing up those feelings.

There's something to discover in this. Perhaps to do with simply not trying to change anything, even the "mistakes"? Like Dzogchen or Zen, or Tao? 

Yes there is. I have not tried it in some time. I have not experimented much with those traditions. I am somewhat familiar with Zen, but not too much. I read “Zen and the Art of Archery,” but it has been some time since then.

Perhaps hearing or 'the heard' will be especially useful for your inquiry. Perhaps you could focus a little more on this sense than the others for now.

I definitely feel a stronger sense of perception with hearing versus other senses. It is easiest to notice the hearing prior to the thoughts which follow. Although, at times also feels like "looking for the pure hearing," which is really just more "doing." Something to "look for" I suppose!

I'm guessing, of course, but there's a story here about embarrassment and vulnerability , possibly compounded by anxiety of other trained musicians, "experts" , being able to hear faults or inadequacies in your playing?

Most definitely. The fear of being evaluated, judged, seen as not "legitimate" or not "good enough." Not being taken seriously, called for gigs, perhaps even socially pressured or isolated because of my playing ability (or lack thereof), etc.

What if they are just grateful that it isn't them showing the courage to draw a rabbit out of a hat in front of a live group of people?

That is definitely possible as well. Ultimately they all react differently. Some will respond how I fear, but not many (or won't to your face). Some won't pay attention much because they're focused on themselves, some will feel challenged by my competency and feel similarly to me, others will judge me to make themselves feel better, others will be supportive and accepting (whether whole-heartedly or just trying to be nice). Regardless, the fears are all just stories, possibly based on some past experiences, but exacerbated by continuous patterns and cycling through negative thoughts and stories.

Could the way "forward" be to acknowledge this challenging vulnerable feeling and even thank it for showing up? (This may sound strange but it could help). Often, feelings we would push away or suppress demand attention and if they are not met,:(yes, even embraced, hugged and thanked dearly) then a pattern of grossly interfering thoughts and self-defeating references tend to appear. Does this ring a bell?

This may be the only way to transcend this "roadblock in my artistry." Those feelings will not simply going away after a hiatus from playing and doing a bunch of meditating. They'll come back as soon as I pick up the trombone again and start really practicing/playing with people. The only way is to give those feelings the time and attention required, see them for what they are, and allow for the music to happen on its own rather than there being a "self playing the music."

Thank you for your patience and interest in my story,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. Hearing seems to be the easiest to notice thoughts as separate occurrences rather than being attached to hearing. Seeing is also becoming clearer. Things are starting to be seen more for what they are. Things that are seen that may cause a reaction, for example knocking something off the table, is seen more for what it is and doesn't come with the reaction attached (or at least it comes after). These things look different since there is not the thought/reaction clouding the experience of seeing in that moment.

That's good. Any time spent in the felt presence of immediate experience is helpful for a couple of good reasons. One being that it's all too easy to be preoccupied or even, seemingly, 'lost in thoughts' which are always ABOUT something or other that is not actually happening , including the projection of an imaginary "me" unto an imaginary scenario.

Immediate sensation is always NOW, without labels. And in contrast to that its possible to see how the illusion results from preoccupation in the commentary, the story appearing as a succession of thoughts that are believed to be "what's happening to me" (.Or what did happen to me or what will happen to me). In NOW, where is "time"?

. Thoughts feel separate for the most part, however the idea of a "doer" is sticking in the area of someone "watching the thoughts happen." This ties to an earlier post I made about feeling as if "I am awareness," only this time it is "I am the awareness of my thoughts."

Does awareness.ever exist independent or separate from the object of awareness?

With seeing, is the awareness of redness separate from the experience of it? Try playing with this.

. I am somewhat familiar with Zen, but not too much. I read “Zen and the Art of Archery,” but it has been some time since then.

I wasn't recommending studying these traditions much . I mentioned them because each school emphasises no disconnect or separation between what happens and the experience of it.

. I definitely feel a stronger sense of perception with hearing versus other senses. It is easiest to notice the hearing prior to the thoughts which follow.

This is good. So, notice whatever is heard and allow inquisitiveness play a part. Leaving out thoughts about "ears" or even "awareness", is there any separation between what is heard and the experience of it?

. is definitely possible as well. Ultimately they all react differently. Some will respond how I fear, but not many (or won't to your face). Some won't pay attention much because they're focused on themselves, some will feel challenged by my competency and feel similarly to me, others will judge me to make themselves feel better, others will be supportive and accepting (whether whole-heartedly or just trying to be nice). Regardless, the fears are all just stories, possibly based on some past experiences, but exacerbated by continuous patterns and cycling through negative thoughts and stories.

You have given a great account of how the "self" illusion plays out, not just personally but in the wider community of "no-selves". Such an irony that no-one should need to attack, judge or defend an illusory self image.

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hey Jon, I wanted to send a check in message. I have been teaching a summer camp this week and just returned home this evening. This camp was very time-intensive and made it difficult to reply in a timely fashion. Tomorrow will be a rest day where I can finish my response to your previous message.

Thank you for your patience,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss,

I remember you talking about the camp. That did sound very intensive. Thanks for your message but I do understand. Also, I'm traveling myself this week sometimes , so may not always respond immediately.

Looking forward to hearing from you once you have had time to relax a little bit.


Love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

In NOW, where is "time"?

Time is not experienced in now. Time is only a thought or label we put on the passing of the day. My relationship with time is beginning to change. I am focusing less on how long something takes, when something has to be "done", and trying to "fit" things into the day. Things happen, and when it feels time to do something else, that next thing happens. Time still "exists" to serve its purpose in life, but it is not a constraint on the mind or a cause of stress.

Does awareness.ever exist independent or separate from the object of awareness?

I'm not 100% sure on this one. I have a feeling that awareness does not exist independently from the object of awareness, and that there is only the sensation. Awareness existing would just be a thought/idea, like when hearing and I think that I am being aware, but really I'm just thinking about awareness rather than actually purely hearing. I'm going to keep sitting with this one, but it feels like the next step past your questions below about "redness" and hearing.

With seeing, is the awareness of redness separate from the experience of it? Try playing with this.

It seems that colors are separate from the experience of seeing. Something that is red or green just is what it is. I suppose the idea of color is yet another label the mind creates upon seeing something?

This is good. So, notice whatever is heard and allow inquisitiveness play a part. Leaving out thoughts about "ears" or even "awareness", is there any separation between what is heard and the experience of it?

There is no separation from what is heard and the experience of it. Hearing is just hearing. Thoughts that follow in regards to the sounds are just thoughts.

Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss


I'm struggling with very poor internet right now so I will keep this one brief, hoping you will understand that I'm only addressing one part of what you've said. (Better Wifi should return in a few days)...

. It seems that colors are separate from the experience of seeing. Something that is red or green just is what it is. I suppose the idea of color is yet another label the mind creates upon seeing something?

Check is a few different times.

Where is separation experienced between the whiteness of a white cup (for example) and the seeing if it ?

I'm currently sitting on some green grass. So here, it's greens. Where is the dividing line or separation between the colour and the seeing if it?


(I apologise if you don't hear from me quite so quickly in the next three days or so. It'll be WiFi issues if so).

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

No worries Jon, I will patiently await your response. Thank you for letting me know.

Where is separation experienced between the whiteness of a white cup (for example) and the seeing if it ?
Where is the dividing line or separation between the colour and the seeing if it?

I had some difficulty explaining this:

There is no separation from color and the seeing of something. When I look at a blue book, seeing the color is part of seeing the book. The book is just the book. Its qualities are its qualities. Now, labeling/identifying it as blue is a thought which comes after the initial seeing. When looking at a brown table, there is just looking at the table, which includes it's color. There is no recognition of the color or concept of color in the pure seeing-only seeing it for what it is. Seeing the table is seeing the color of the table. However, analyzing the table for it's shades of brown, its construction, it's dimensions, these are all labels, thoughts, and stories about the table.

When I sat down to experience seeing and to ask these questions, I sat by the window and looked at the view of the city in which I live. There are many buildings, lights, trees, and other things to look at from my apartment. Each thing I looked at had its own qualities, including color. Seeing things included seeing their color, but it did not include identifying the color. There was simply seeing. Simply looking. I sat for 35 minutes, but I couldn't have accurately told someone how long I sat there if I had not set a timer. It could have been 15 minutes or 60 minutes. When the bell rang, the bell rang. There was just sitting, looking, listening. The idea of time is simply a tool for people to coordinate things and moments together or in rhythm. However, aside from the usefulness of the tool of time, the day passes as it does. Things happen when they happen and there is no "me" to schedule or "do" things at a particular "time."

Thank you,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hi Nuss


Excuse the brevity of my reply. Internet where I am is limited.

There is no separation from color and the seeing of something.

I wasn't asking about seeing something.

I didn't ask if there is separation between colour and the seeing of some thing.

I am asking about only the direct experience of colour.

For example, here, now, there is whiteness. This is actually experienced.

Disregard any thoughts there might be about colour being an attribute of an object.

Just rest your attention on some colour somewhere

Now, is colour "separate" from the seeing of it?

It is a popular view that there are three parts to seeing , namely 'a perceiver' , 'perceiving' and 'something perceived'. (Or, seer, seeing and seen).

In the case of colour, is it possible to find three such 'separate' entities? What's actually happening?

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon, thank you for making the effort to message me with your current wifi situation.

Sorry, I misinterpreted "it" in your question to be the object you were describing instead of the color.

Now, is colour "separate" from the seeing of it?

No, color is not separate from seeing it. There is just seeing the color.

It is a popular view that there are three parts to seeing , namely 'a perceiver' , 'perceiving' and 'something perceived'. (Or, seer, seeing and seen). In the case of colour, is it possible to find three such 'separate' entities? What's actually happening?

It is not possible to find the "perceiver" or the "perceived." There is only the seeing and the thoughts which follow (and are not a part of the seeing).

With gratitude,
Prof. Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. Sorry, I misinterpreted "it" in your question to be the object you were describing instead of the color.

No need to apologize. I just needed to clarify my question.

Let's return to what you said a couple of weeks ago:

Things most definitely feel different throughout the day from before we were introduced to one another. Things are starting to look and sound different, more clear, as they are. There is much more awareness on the present, and there is more space between present experiences (sights, sounds, sensations, etc) and thoughts. Actions of Nuss carry out on their own without a "doer" or "controller"-talking, driving, walking, eating, singing, planning, etc.

How do things seem now? What you said here sounds lovely. Is there continuity with what you were saying? Is there still clarity?

Can you say with confidence that the illusion of self is seen?

With love

Jon

[Nuss]

How do things seem now? What you said here sounds lovely. Is there continuity with what you were saying? Is there still clarity?

When that response was written, there was a deep sense of clarity which was felt for the larger part of two days. It came upon completing a 9 hour drive, and a good part of that drive was spent looking into the questions you had asked most recently. Upon arriving home, it felt as if everything was seen for what it was. There was no push and pull between life unfolding on its own and a "me" to "do" or "experience" things. Thoughts and feelings arose and passed on their own. This was a very peaceful state. Despite whatever was happening around me, there was a sense of silence and stillness within. An open acceptance and detachment to the unfolding of life.

That state dissipated a couple days later when there were more obligations and responsibilities to "do." I started a two-week window of summer camps, which involved a lot of teaching and engaging with people I have known for years. In some ways I felt that I had reverted back to old habit patterns of the behaving and being. It's almost as if the anxiety of there being "much to do" forced me back to clinging to the sense of a controller or doer.

Things still feel and seem different from before we started communicating, but that state of deep clarity has left for now.

Can you say with confidence that the illusion of self is seen?

In this moment I cannot say with complete confidence that it is seen, but it feels very close.

Thank you,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

. When that response was written, there was a deep sense of clarity which was felt for the larger part of two days. It came upon completing a 9 hour drive, and a good part of that drive was spent looking into the questions you had asked most recently. Upon arriving home, it felt as if everything was seen for what it was. There was no push and pull between life unfolding on its own and a "me" to "do" or "experience" things. Thoughts and feelings arose and passed on their own. This was a very peaceful state. Despite whatever was happening around me, there was a sense of silence and stillness within. An open acceptance and detachment to the unfolding of life.

That sounds beautiful.

. That state dissipated a couple days later when there were more obligations and responsibilities to "do." I started a two-week window of summer camps, which involved a lot of teaching and engaging with people I have known for years. In some ways I felt that I had reverted back to old habit patterns of the behaving and being. It's almost as if the anxiety of there being "much to do" forced me back to clinging to the sense of a controller or doer.

It's very common to feel "I lost it " when such habit patterns appear again, including the thought "I"

It's good that this phase was noticed, even if identification was part of it.

Without a 'real self' to prevent such patterns from appearing it's nevertheless gets noticed how the illusion reasserts its self... and seems real, for a while.

Is our work here to get rid of a self that actually exists or to see that there never really was (or could have been) one of these?

. Things still feel and seem different from before we started communicating, but that state of deep clarity has left for now.

It's always available, but also possible to believe that it "was a state" (that is not happening now). Letting that view drop away is always possible.

. In this moment I cannot say with complete confidence that it is seen, but it feels very close.

Sounds good


With love

Jon

[Nuss]

Hello Jon,

It's very common to feel "I lost it " when such habit patterns appear again, including the thought "I"

Absolutely. Perhaps that is something to investigate-the idea that "I create my mind states." When in that blissful state, there was an underlying identification with the state: "I created/achieved this level of clarity." "I am feeling this."

Is our work here to get rid of a self that actually exists or to see that there never really was (or could have been) one of these?

To see that there never really was a self. The "reverting back" was the illusion reasserting itself. The "old ways of behaving and being" were not a former life of "me," they were old ways of identifying with a self that wasn't there to begin with.

It's always available, but also possible to believe that it "was a state" (that is not happening now). Letting that view drop away is always possible.

Yes-that clarity is always available because the things that were seen in great clarity are always happening in the now-correct? There was just seeing things for what they really are, which is always possible. Viewing it as a "state" comes with the assumption that it is something to be "achieved" and therefore must be "done" by a "doer." Also that there is some type of "recipe" of things that must happen in order to arrive in that "state," when really it's just seeing things for what they are. Is that what you meant?


An interesting experience happened today during a yoga class. While lying in shavasana, awareness went wherever it went. Sounds, sensations, the breath, thoughts. The separation between "my body" and the floor seemed to fade away. There was just the room and everything in it, including the form which I call "my body." There were just sensations. No labeling or picturing of where they were. Sensations happened, thoughts sometimes occurred after the fact, but there was less of the locating/mapping happening, since there was no "boundary" of the body to be experienced.

Talk to you soon,
Nuss

[JonathanR]

Hello Nuss

Please forgive the delay. Once again WiFi hasn't been available but this will change today or tomorrow.

. Yes-that clarity is always available because the things that were seen in great clarity are always happening in the now-correct?

Yes. In that Now is not 'somewhere else', imagined, not some scenario in which an 'I' appears to 'exist' in a 'past' or 'future' but instead actually what is, here, right now.

. An interesting experience happened today during a yoga class. While lying in shavasana, awareness went wherever it went. Sounds, sensations, the breath, thoughts. The separation between "my body" and the floor seemed to fade away. There was just the room and everything in it, including the form which I call "my body." There were just sensations. No labeling or picturing of where they were. Sensations happened, thoughts sometimes occurred after the fact, but there was less of the locating/mapping happening, since there was no "boundary" of the body to be experienced

That's great!

Sorry to be so brief.

Speak soon.

Love,. Jon