Seeing that Frees

[Mamaki]

Hi again dear vince

Thankyou so much for your companionship and excellent explanation and questions.

You asked me:

Tell me what you understand by decision, intention, free will, choice and control.

Choice is the notion that there is more than one option and therefore I could select any of them on the basis of preference. When I think more deeply I realise my choices can only be a result of all kinds of conditioning known and unknown.

Decision is the selection made. When I look more deeply I see that I'm not sure where the decisions come from or how they happen. I have occasionally caught my thought's laying claim to a decision made after the event of it happening. I notice the decision to get out of bed in the morning is definitely not 'me' deciding. It just happens.

Free will is the assumed ability to make choices as a separate entity from the rest of life. This is a tricky one. My Buddhist conditioning emphasises the cultivation of more skillful states as a foundation for seeing things as they really are. Also the assumed freedom to set out on a path to liberation! There is an assumption that you choose this as a free individual and yet there's also the teaching of reality where choice is completely empty.

Intention is a presumed choice to follow a particular line of action. An anticipation and hope for how things will turn out. I get a lot of anticipation anxiety, assuming I can control something in the future but worrying that I can't really control it. Which is true and yet I still try...

Control is the presumed ability to make things happen as a separate individual agent of change. Control is usually a tight feeling in the body. A kind of forcing story in my mind. Though sometimes it can feel a glorious inflation story of skillfully juggling an array of factors or events... assuming it all comes from me and my talent! But how it manifests is a mystery.

Love and thanks

Mamaki

[vinceschubert]

i will respond tomorrow.

vince

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki, Ok, all good descriptions of these, but a little intellectual. i know that this is a harder ask, but can you give me examples of each of them from actual experience?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi again vince

Thanks for your feedback. I welcome encouragement to look into experience more deeply.
So here goes...

Decision from actual experience
When I really looked it seems that decisions happen of their own accord. The point at which I got out of bed this morning did not appear to have any thought decision that made it happen. It just happened.
Weighing up things conceptually this morning 'should I go for a walk or stay home and do stuff?'I intuit a considered 'choice' was arrived at without my making it happen. Thoughts came one after the other stating their case and eventually a 'choice became obvious. Relief followed at arriving at a decision.

Intention
This is a tricky one because my memory is less reliable than it used to be. I frequently experience intention to follow a course of action and then forget to follow through. I have an intention for this week setting up my therapy room for Massage after lockdown. There is an image of a neat and peaceful room all ready in time and carried out with ease. And there is also a story of how I might get sidetracked and do it all at the last minute and get stressed. I don't know which will come to pass. There is the thought of not knowing and anxiety with that. I intuit that the anxiety will decide...something like that.

It's taking longer to answer these questions from experience so I'm sending what I've done so far and will send the rest later today.

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

I'm sending what I've done so far and will send the rest later today.

i'm liking what i read so far. Waiting...

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi again vince

Trying to do this in a hurry and just lost the draft. Ran out of time so returning to it late now.

Free will. Do I have it? Freedom from being part of life? Am I free to be separate from the rest of life and bend things to my will...no
Can I do or think whatever I want whenever I want...no
Some things happen and I wanted them to happen that way and some things happen that I didn't want to happen that way. If I had free will I would be able to control those things. Sitting here, I want to think of a good example of free will in my experience. But I can't. I cannot will a good example to come. I can think of lots of reasons why a good example should come but so far it hasn't come. Mmm not sure if I can really get this experientially.

Choice
Choice happens out of thoughts and feelings and sensations. Thoughts about what time to set my wake up alarm tomorrow. Feelings are weighed up as to which option gives most pleasure/least pain. Thought seems to be choosing but I am not choosing.

Control
Things happen and are sometimes aligned with my desires. I feel like I'm in control.
In a short while I intend to turn my light out and go to sleep. I know I can do that and probably will do that but I cant be 100% certain I will do that...sorry vince not sure I'm getting experiential enough. Still feels conceptual.

I had a deep looking session with Ilona today and we explored some of these topics.

I look forward to your response

With love

mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Hi Mamaki,

Trying to do this in a hurry

No need for this. i usually read the response, then allow something beneath awareness to process it, then come back and respond when circumstances invite me to.

Mmm not sure if I can really get this experientially.

You just did. You experienced that free will is a story.

Thought seems to be choosing but I am not choosing.

Choice seems to happen. Thoughts about that happen. For those not yet awake it is easy to believe that the thoughts that claim ownership reflect reality. For those awake, it is easy to see on reflection that this is illusory.
What actually happened remains a mystery.

sorry vince not sure I'm getting experiential enough. Still feels conceptual.

Another way to investigate control is to use memory to review happenings.
You experienced an intention to turn out the light before going to sleep, but you also acknowledged that it might not happen. This would indicate that you didn't experience a sense of control. That you didn't believe that you were in control of control.
There is somewhat of a paradox here. When asked to relate your experience of something that doesn't exist, you can only relate the attempt to find it.
Give me an example of the inherent existence of a Self?

with love

vince

[vinceschubert]

Hi Mamaki,

Trying to do this in a hurry

No need for this. i usually read the response, then allow something beneath awareness to process it, then come back and respond when circumstances invite me to.

Mmm not sure if I can really get this experientially.

You just did. You experienced that free will is a story.

Thought seems to be choosing but I am not choosing.

Choice seems to happen. Thoughts about that happen. For those not yet awake it is easy to believe that the thoughts that claim ownership reflect reality. For those awake, it is easy to see on reflection that this is illusory.
What actually happened remains a mystery.

sorry vince not sure I'm getting experiential enough. Still feels conceptual.

Another way to investigate control is to use memory to review happenings.
You experienced an intention to turn out the light before going to sleep, but you also acknowledged that it might not happen. This would indicate that you didn't experience a sense of control. That you didn't believe that you were in control of control.
There is somewhat of a paradox here. When asked to relate your experience of something that doesn't exist, you can only relate the attempt to find it.
Give me an example of the inherent existence of a Self?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi again vince

When asked to give you an example of the inherent existence of a Self, thought came in immediately with the declaration that that is impossible. I remembered what you said about the attempt to describe something that doesn't exist so a decision happened to go and look. An image of me with description of mind body and spirit arose. A bit of a cartoon as thought said it was impossible for this 'being ' to operate independently of the rest of life. However I persisted with image and the thought that if this being were separated from everyday life would it then be able to operate independently...and it seemed that even with minimal conditions present by being alone like on solitary retreat that this being would still be shaped by conditions and likewise shape them...
As for now I can't find in my experience an inherent self. Only looking at screen, bright light of morning sun, typing a flow of thoughts, sensations of body, taste of coffee...

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

I can't find in my experience an inherent self.

so if there's no actual self, what does the label self point to?
What do you now see as the actuality of what is referred to as responsibility?

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi again vince

if there's no actual self, what does the label self point to?

The label self points to...
Mmm, hard to answer!
A belief that I am the owner and controller of this portion of life, this body, this mind...
A story about who and what I am
A seemingly verifiable experience of me behind my face looking out but I cannot locate it anywhere in particular. Ive tended to assume its around the eyes, more recently a sensation in the throat with inwardly narrated thoughts. But I cannot point to the self anywhere.

What do you now see as the actuality of what is referred to as responsibility?

The actuality of responsibility is a fantasy. A belief I can control or steer life from a central control centre in my being somewhere. Take the credit or blame for things...if this is true then I am responsible for noone and nothing and yet what about karma?
If choice happens without a controller then progressive growth is still possible with reflection on behaviour, yes?
Like if I behave aggressively and regret the pain caused a series of thoughts arise about what happened ethically and a choice may happen that brings about new behaviour going forward...
I can't easily let go of the notion that ethical growth is not possible... !
Yet I see how life is just happening and I am not controlling decisions. How come I have grown ethically over the years?

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good morning Mamaki,

A story about who and what I am

Yes, yes. This is a really big one. If you see this story as a book with chapters that describe characteristics. With a complexity that has taken a whole lifetime to develop. More detailed than the longest movie could portray, then it is easy to see how we invest reality into it.

If choice happens without a controller then progressive growth is still possible with reflection on behaviour, yes?

Yes, of course. We constantly evolve and change with every experience. The only permanence is change.

.if this is true then I am responsible for no one and nothing and yet what about karma?

Are you referring to karma as in reincarnated lives? If so it is a story that may or may not be accurate. i am happy to leave it as a mystery.
If you are saying karma as in consequence, then it is wise to consider possible outcomes, but this doesn't need a morality edict.

I can't easily let go of the notion that ethical growth is not possible... !

There is no need to let go of this. Just remove the culturally-induced morality clause from it.
Of course, consequence includes that (apparent) others still operate from this perspective. ..and there is no need to judge this.


with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hello again vince

Are you referring to karma as in reincarnated lives? If so it is a story that may or may not be accurate. i am happy to leave it as a mystery.
If you are saying karma as in consequence, then it is wise to consider possible outcomes, but this doesn't need a morality edict.

I am referring to karma in the sense of 'deliberately' practising ethics and confession in order to create positive future consequences for 'self' and 'others'. Reflecting on behaviour and 'owning" transgressions!

What is a morality edict?

Love mamaki

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Mamaki,

I am referring to karma in the sense of 'deliberately' practising ethics and confession

Ok. So is this something that you can do?
Even if the intention is there, do you have sufficient control to carry out this practice?

n order to create positive future consequences

..and in your experience (not something read or heard) has this worked out for you ?

Reflecting on behaviour and 'owning" transgressions!

Is this another way of saying "taking responsibility for wrongdoings?

What is a morality edict?

this is a cult(ural) story about what is right and wrong.

with love

vince

[Mamaki]

Hi again vince

I am referring to karma in the sense of 'deliberately' practising ethics and confession

Ok. So is this something that you can do?

Can I deliberately practise ethics and confession? Can I control myself? Not sure I've been able to control anything regardless of conditions. It's all just happened because of conditions. Sometimes it's felt like fruits of practice, other times 'backward steps' and no  'progress'. There is a story of progress that is attributed to ethical practice but I don't know for sure what has brought how I am into being.

Even if the intention is there, do you have sufficient control to carry out this practice?
No! I realise now that I really don't have that kind of control beyond an intention.

in order to create positive future consequences

..and in your experience (not something read or heard) has this worked out for you?
Initially my answer felt like a yes...but actually I feel like although I've become happier and less self critical it's not a permanent state. It comes and goes and sometimes I wonder if I've made any progress at all. All stories that assume a controller.

I have become more loving of myself which I'm attributing to practising loving kindness meditation over many years and yet its not always consistent. I have become more aware of unhelpful patterns of behaviour which I attribute to thoughts and reflections on ethics and I am generally more skillful but I do 'fall back' sometimes! I see how I'm still writing as if I have controlled all this!

Reflecting on behaviour and 'owning" transgressions!

Is this another way of saying "taking responsibility for wrongdoings?
Yes! Haha! Yes,
Story says:
'I'm a bad person who needs to change for the better to benefit myself and more importantly others!'

What is a morality edict?

this is a cult(ural) story about what is right and wrong.
Yes this is what's happening in the story.

Many thanks for your patient wise attention

Love mamaki