It seems close but yet so far

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,
I don't have much time this morning, but I don't want to keep you hanging, so this will be quick.
Your'e over complicating this looking for something grand and out of this world, it's really simple and the world will look the same.

Let me show you:
> What do you do in order to see?
I sit down, open my eyes and look at a glass of water I have on the desk.
There is nothing I need to do, the colors are just seen, I can't start it, I can't stop it, even if I close my eyes I see some color I can call "darkness". So I do nothing to see, seeing is just happening.
When I look who is seeing, I notice thoughts that claim that I see through my eyes, that it's at that height and center, but if I let them drop and look at experience - at what is right there, I cannot find a see-er, just seeing.

Now see if that matches your experience exactly? If not change it.
Can you do the other items more or less like this?

I hope that helps!
best
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Thank you for clarifying. I keep getting caught up in my head trying to find something. After seeing your post the answers came immediately.

What do you do in order to be?

There is nothing for me to do in order to be. There is always a sense of being.

What do you do in order to see?

As I sit down to type this I can see the characters coming onto the screen, I close my eyes and there are still colors which as you pointed out we refer to as 'darkness'. Thoughts arise claiming sight and what is being seen. 'I am seeing myself typing' but was is actually seen are colors appearing on white.

What do you do in order to hear?

As I type sounds of clicking are heard which the mind labels as 'typing' or 'keyboard clicking'. I do not need to make myself hear.

What do you do in order to feel?

The chair is felt against the body and the mind quickly labels the sensations as 'back against chair' and 'butt on chair' and 'fingers on keyboard'. I cannot stop feeling.

What do you do in order to taste and smell?

Taste and smell is also here. Although often faint by shifting attention to the mouth or nose some smells and tastes do come into focus. By holding the breath smell stops and if I don't move my tongue around much taste also goes. When eating or drinking however taste cannot be stopped and while breathing smell cannot be stopped either. The mind is quick to label this experience too.

What do you do for thoughts to be?

Thoughts simply appear and disappear. I cannot stop thoughts. Thoughts come up based on sight, sound, sensations, taste, smell and previous thoughts. If a thought comes up labeling a sensation as "anxiety" then more thoughts come up such as "you are not good enough" or "you need to be doing more" and "this is not working". They are seen and let be.

What do you do in order for the body to be?

I do not do anything for the body to be. I cannot stop the hands from being or the eyes from being. They are here. Typing on the keyboard the body's fingers land on the right keys and then thoughts appear claiming the action. "I am typing" and "my fingers are typing on my keyboard". But in my experience the body is just moving and doing. I can see the hand move in certain motions and it feels as though "I" am doing it but looked at closer and it is just color moving, thoughts and sensations.

[CuriousBeing]

I appreciate you responding earlier as I am currently unemployed so I have a lot of time to be looking and am dedicated most of my time to it.

[Ronaldo]

Thanks, I'll review in my evening :)
Let me make sure you realize that this "no self" is not a special state, the world will look the same, it's not like a trip.
It's how it has always been, it's how you are right now. There is simply a clear view that there is no Simon running life, deciding, doing, thinking. Simon is a concept or a story like Santa or Batman, it simply does not exist outside of a story in thoughts.
Who has these thoughts?
Find the owner.

[CuriousBeing]

Tried finding the owner but can't find anything. I'll stay with this some more. Should I also find whoever is feeling and seeing or just focus on the owner of thoughts?

Is the realization random and by tuning into this increases the chances of it happening or what? I suppose intellectualization won't help at all but I get curious thinking I'm doing it wrong.

Thanks
Simon

[Ronaldo]

You're not doing anything wrong, if you cannot find the thinker, the doer, the feeler, perhaps there isn't one.
Look, is it all just happening?
Anyone running life?

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,
First let's go through some of your replies.

There is nothing for me to do in order to be. There is always a sense of being.

We've talked about this somewhere on page 1, I asked you to deconstruct what that sense of being is made of.
Either it's something in the 5 senses + thoughts, or it's a new type of sensation, what is it?

Taste and smell is also here. Although often faint by shifting attention to the mouth or nose some smells and tastes do come into focus. By holding the breath smell stops and if I don't move my tongue around much taste also goes. When eating or drinking however taste cannot be stopped and while breathing smell cannot be stopped either. The mind is quick to label this experience too.

Taste and smell aren't as dominant as sights and sound, and they also seem to become saturated and harder to notice (if you've ever been to a smelly public bathroom or gym, you'd thank god for that). But here you assume that you need to do something to make them happen (e.g. holding the breath, moving the tongue).
Please sit down again and watch carefully:
How is attention or focus moves between sights, sensations, sounds, thoughts and sometimes smells and tastes?
Are you controlling the shifting of attention?

Sometimes a thought will proceed the sensation, does that mean you are doing it, or that the thought directed the action?

Find something in your field of view,
(a) think about looking at it but don't.
(b) think about looking and look.
(c) just look
Do you actually find any difference?
Isn't the thought just an added story layer?

Now, try finding smells and tastes, are you doing anything to sense them if they exist?
If you squeeze some toothpaste on a toothbrush, did you cause smell and taste to arise, or the action happen, smell and taste happen?

thoughts come up based on sight, sound, sensations, taste, smell and previous thoughts. If a thought comes up labeling a sensation as "anxiety" then more thoughts come up such as "you are not good enough" or "you need to be doing more" and "this is not working". They are seen and let be.

Do thoughts need other sensations first for them to arise?
Yes, thought does tag everything that is sensed and seen, but not always.
Thoughts about "I'm not good enough" can come before or after a sensation tagged "anxiety" - but not always.
So there are a lot of cause and effect relations, but not always, and is a link ever found between them in actual experience? Or is it just thought content suggesting that a cause has an effect? You cannot ever tell if they just occur at the same time, or occur as a sequence. A an actual link isn't found.


How are you feeling with the inquiry so far?
Is there any fear arising? Frustration?
What do you find confusing?
Any change?

Regards
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Either it's something in the 5 senses + thoughts, or it's a new type of sensation, what is it?

It's a sensation and a thought "being" or "me"

How is attention or focus moves between sights, sensations, sounds, thoughts and sometimes smells and tastes?

Attention shifts and thoughts labeling what happened or saying "I looked".

Are you controlling the shifting of attention?

I am not.

Do you actually find any difference?

No it's no different.

Isn't the thought just an added story layer?

Yes, taking credit for what's happening.

Now, try finding smells and tastes, are you doing anything to sense them if they exist?

Just like sensations, thoughts and other senses smells and tastes arise. There is no one controlling them, I see it now.

How are you feeling with the inquiry so far?
Is there any fear arising? Frustration?
What do you find confusing?
Any change?

It's a lot simpler than I had expected. Thoughts complicates it all. Fear arose a week ago when I was asking "Who am I?" and I would let it go. Nowadays, it's more frustration, thinking I'm doing something wrong. The current pointing of finding the owner. Find Simon. I look and I find nothing. Intellectually I realise Simon isn't here, it's just memories and thoughts creating the sense of self so then how do we convince the mind of this? By looking for someone? I have a thought and I ask "who is thinking?", Where is the thinker? And nothing happens. It feels like I'm stuck. If you tell me that's okay and eventually you'll see then I'll stick with it as long as it takes but it feels like I need to be doing something which I am not.

When I read your previous post something clicked even more that thought takes credit for everything. No one doing or seeing or hearing.

Thanks again
Simon

[CuriousBeing]

It's becoming clearer that as I walk around there is just movement of the body, thoughts, sensations, sounds, sights. Making tea (coffee is still for heathens) the hands grab the teabag and the kettle to pour water. It's all being seen yet identification still seems strong.

[CuriousBeing]

By identification I mean a reaction. I hear someone call me stupid and anger arises. Unless I'm aware and I just see it as a sensation with the label "angry" it will take over. Also, having read that once you experience no self you will have no more questions makes me doubt even further.

For now I am just looking for the owner and any experience I am looking for the experiencer.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,
Let's talk a little about expectations, answer each from your gut not trying to synthesize it or tone it down.

What do you think will happen when the no-self is realized?
How do you think life will change?
What will be lost? What will be gained?

[CuriousBeing]

What do you think will happen when the no-self is realized?

That doubt will fall away and Simon will be seen as an illusion which doesn't need to be defended or maintained.

How do you think life will change?

Past mistakes won't have such a strong impact on the present. They can be seen and lessons learned but there is no attachment to the story.

What will be lost? What will be gained?

The belief that I am never enough and I need to strive for more to feel better about myself. Knowledge about my true self will be gained and can be shared.

[Ronaldo]

Hi Simon,

how do we convince the mind of this? By looking for someone? I have a thought and I ask "who is thinking?", Where is the thinker? And nothing happens. It feels like I'm stuck.

We are not trying to convince the mind of anything (if there was such a thing, or if it was otherwise possible). There is no way of thinking that can take you beyond thinking - it's not in the realm of thoughts.
When you ask a question that cannot be answered, what happens?
That's why we can only give these vague pointers and hope for a flip.

If you tell me that's okay and eventually you'll see then I'll stick with it as long as it takes but it feels like I need to be doing something which I am not.

Just keep doing what you are doing, look with curiosity at what is here, that's it, and it helps to be armed with the right question, or mindset. What that is, is not a simple answer.

When I read your previous post something clicked even more that thought takes credit for everything. No one doing or seeing or hearing.

That's good looking!
Can you clearly see that there is no control over thoughts?
No control over actions (often thought claiming, but there is no control over thought anyway)
Can you clearly see that attention is shifting and is never something you control?
Is there any doubt that you are not the thinker, doer, feeler, see-er?
Where is Simon? How is Simon any different than Harry Potter?
Please do tell me.

It's becoming clearer that as I walk around there is just movement of the body, thoughts, sensations, sounds, sights. Making tea (coffee is still for heathens) the hands grab the teabag and the kettle to pour water. It's all being seen yet identification still seems strong.

What is identifying?
Sit with it, let the thoughts bounce over, what can be identifying with thoughts?
A thought is not an entity, it cannot identify or think, it's only an imagined experience.
Is there identification with smells or sounds?
Does the thought mean anything if there's no zooming into the thought content?
What is left if the thought content is ignored?

Regards
Ron

[CuriousBeing]

Where is Simon? How is Simon any different than Harry Potter?

This seems to be helping. I felt some fear coming up with this, it makes me feel like I need to take a deep breath and if I do it goes away. I tried staying with it for a bit and seeing it as a sensation and it landed me in a state of calm and bliss. I think I'll stay with this a bit longer.

[CuriousBeing]

I feel like I'm at the gate but this fear won't let me cross. Any suggestions on how to get through it? I'm watching the fear and giving it attention yet it does not dissipate and allow me to see behind it.