The Gate

Posted: **Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:35 am**

Do you mean you "feel" something is there that makes choices which you identify with as you, a self or an "I"? if so, can you find a location for this "something" in DE? Again, how do you know its there or is a belief that something *should* be there. Please take your time to explore your DE in meditation and in your normal life looking for any sign (however subtle) that there is a sense of self that can make choices.

I cannot find an absolute location for this "something" in DE. But I feel that awareness arises more in my head, between my ears and behind my eyes. But yes, I'm sure that my tendency to believe that something/someone "should" be there affects my perception.

Sometimes I think of the self as a behavior "pattern". This brain/body has made certain types of decisions, and has had certain preferences, and engaged in certain activities, so decisions are made to continue to move in those directions. And then we identify with these types of decisions and we link them to a cohesive/coherent self.

Is it the case that in DE choices, thoughts simply arise without a self needed to generate or create them and we later invent a story that there is a self, I, me that is in control that we become strongly identified with. However, when we start looking we cannot find this self anywhere. This inquiry is about looking into DE and seeing, really seeing there is no self, I, person anywhere to be found and consequently stopping believing in the story, like one day waking up and no longer believing in Santa!

I have studied the phenomenon of post-rationalization. Where a person makes a decision unconsciously at first and then when asked why later they form a post-rationalization for the unconscious behavior/"decision". So I can see how we are probably doing this all the time, and claiming ownership of these "decisions".

Meanwhile, here is an exercise to explore the idea of thought causing an action.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch like a hawk and report back when you ready.

So, when I do this exercise. It's difficult to predict when you will turn your hand over. And did I will the hand to turn over first (via thought), or did I claim to will my hand to turn over after my hand already started turning over? How long will it take until I "will" my hand to turn over again? Why did I "decide" at this moment to turn over my hand and not at a moment just a little later?

I feel this is similar to when I follow my breath. Most of the day my breath is unnoticebale and unconscious. When I'm meditating and following the breath it seems to become more voluntary, like watching it I start to exert some control over it, like how long I inhale, or how long do I exhale, or do i tend to hold it a bit at the top of the inhale or the end of the exhale. Even though I am more conscious of my breath am I actually more in control of it? Who is "controlling" it?

Posted: **Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:14 pm**

I'd like to spend some more time exploring this exercise with you if that's ok. Are you finding it easier to enter DE out of thought/symbolised narratives since you started this inquiry? Do you choose to be in DE or does it just happen?

So, when I do this exercise. It's difficult to predict when you will turn your hand over. And did I will the hand to turn over first (via thought), or did I claim to will my hand to turn over after my hand already started turning over? How long will it take until I "will" my hand to turn over again? Why did I "decide" at this moment to turn over my hand and not at a moment just a little later?

Please keep exploring whether "you" are making the hand over? if so, where is the "you" in DE? Is there any sign of a perceiving subject or is there simply the hand turning over?

Also, can thought actually make anything happen? Does the "thought I will move my hand" cause the hand to turnover?

Amrita

Posted: **Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:52 am**

I'd like to spend some more time exploring this exercise with you if that's ok. Are you finding it easier to enter DE out of thought/symbolised narratives since you started this inquiry?

Yes, I am finding it easier to enter DE since I started this inquiry. I feel that my meditations have become more profound. This morning's meditation wasn't as deep as the previous last two days, but still better than my meditations of the last 6 months. Not that I want to get into ranking each meditation (and not that your asking me to do that). But yes, there is a qualitative difference since I began the inquiry with you.

Do you choose to be in DE or does it just happen?

This question twists my mind. "Choose" might not be the best word. But I feel that I am somehow "willing" the DE experience through sitting still, following my breath and stating "thought occurring" when thoughts occur. This tends to lead me into a state of DE. The thought of DE "just happening" is really hard to consider. How could it "just happen" without me somehow doing something to incite it to happen?

Please keep exploring whether "you" are making the hand over? if so, where is the "you" in DE? Is there any sign of a perceiving subject or is there simply the hand turning over?

I will continue with the exercise. It is very difficult. I feel like I still perceive some kind of will willing the hand to turn over. But it is not the phrase "turn over your hand, now turn it back".

Also, can thought actually make anything happen? Does the "thought I will move my hand" cause the hand to turnover?

I can think the thought "turn my hand over" and then turn my hand over, but thinking the thought "turn my hand over" is not required. Most of the movements I do in the course of a day are not preceded by a phrase like "put your left foot forward" then "put your right foot forward" (as in walking) or "grasp this cup" then "lift this cup" (as in drinking). I just grasp the cup and lift it to my mouth and then drink, like I have thousands of times before. It is automatic. But when I'm learning something new, am I not more in tune with it, and more willful? If I were to be learning to ride a bike for the first time, I may not say, "Push down on this pedal", then "push down on the other pedal" but I think I would be much more conscious of myself willing my feet and legs to push down on each pedal.

I will continue with the hand exercise. But a thought that consists of words is not required for me to turn over my hand. I am sure of this.

Posted: **Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:38 pm**

Hi,

so when you say,

I will continue with the hand exercise. But a thought that consists of words is not required for me to turn over my hand. I am sure of this

do you mean thoughts have no control to change anything or that *something* else is turning your hand over?

Is this *something* else making your hand turn over (act of will, choice, ego, some invisible person) or does the hand simply turn over? Can you try to locate the nexus of sensations and thoughts that you are identifying with? Are they in your "head" area for example? Or maybe your chest?

If you can explore these sensations/thoughts because that's all they ever can be in DE see if you can find any sense of a subtle self that is making things happen (such as turning your hand over). Do "you" exist in any of the sensations or thoughts? What we are looking for is your subjective (imagined) sense of self and looking for its existence in DE. We can only ever experience the DE of the ever-changing preset so if the "self" exists it will manifest in DE so we are looking for the signs of its existence, and hopefully the penny will drop and you will see clearly that is no self driving or controlling everything, its all just the experience of life happening.

Hope that makes sense and is helpful

Amrita

Posted: **Fri Apr 02, 2021 6:09 am**

do you mean thoughts have no control to change anything or that *something* else is turning your hand over?

Are you saying that all thoughts are words or images? Is it possible that there is some signal that goes from my brain to my hand that is nonverbal? That I possible nonverbally "cause" my hand to turn over?

Is this *something* else making your hand turn over (act of will, choice, ego, some invisible person) or does the hand simply turn over? Can you try to locate the nexus of sensations and thoughts that you are identifying with? Are they in your "head" area for example? Or maybe your chest?

I would say that "something" else makes my hand turn over. Yes, like a nonverbal act of will. The nexus of sensations and thoughts that I'm identifying with feel like they are in my head. But I will say it is all confusing to contemplate on this deeperl level. I never feel any locus of control or will coming from my chest. Not that I ever recall.

If you can explore these sensations/thoughts because that's all they ever can be in DE see if you can find any sense of a subtle self that is making things happen (such as turning your hand over). Do "you" exist in any of the sensations or thoughts? What we are looking for is your subjective (imagined) sense of self and looking for its existence in DE. We can only ever experience the DE of the ever-changing preset so if the "self" exists it will manifest in DE so we are looking for the signs of its existence, and hopefully the penny will drop and you will see clearly that is no self driving or controlling everything, its all just the experience of life happening.
Hope that makes sense and is helpful

I will continue to contemplate this. I will say that a couple of days ago, during meditation, I kept saying "thought occuring" when thoughts arose, and eventually most of my word and image thoughts disappeared. But I kept having thoughts of seeing parts of my body (with my eyes closed) and I started to say "thought occuring" to these thoughts as well. Or feeling tensions in my body and also saying "thought occuring" to these tensions (eventually I didnt' have to say "thought occuring"). It took me to a place I hadn't been before. It was like my body disappeared. I'm not sure how to describe it. It was quite peaceful. Not sure if I am getting off the path here. Anyways, it's the most conceptually devoid realm I've ever experienced except maybe during deep sleep or when I was once put under for a routine operation. I would say that during this meditation I felt like maybe I was experiencing a deeper "self" or maybe a "no-self" If I'm digressing here, please disregard.
Also, during this state, I did not see a Paul. I moreso felt an emptiness, and I felt the faint remnants of my remaining body tensions.

I definitely cannot see "Paul" and all of the aspects of my "unique" personality during DE. So, I understand intellectually that Paul does not exist when I am in a state of DE. At least the conceptual Paul does not exist. How do I maintain a state of DE during my day to day life?
I think something I need to contemplate further is thinking that this brain/body somehow has a will that can will things. The continuing of the hand exercise might help.
I feel close. It's hard to explain. Again, I feel intellectually on board with everything you say, and I feel that I have mini aha moments, but they do not sustain.

Posted: **Sat Apr 03, 2021 5:58 am**

I continued to meditate and contemplate today, and lingered in DE. I will have longer meditations on Saturday and Sunday, along with a long walk.

Posted: **Sat Apr 03, 2021 6:48 pm**

Hi,

When you say,

Are you saying that all thoughts are words or images? Is it possible that there is some signal that goes from my brain to my hand that is nonverbal? That I possible nonverbally "cause" my hand to turn over?

I am defining thought as all mental activities which are "added" to the raw experience of the physical senses. This includes words, images, sounds, non-verbal sounds/mental abstractions. In the case of the non-verbal thought/signal that you are imagining is turning your hand over can it be experienced in sensations or words/pictures/sounds? How do you know the non-verbal thought is there?

When "you" read these words can you find any sense of a separate perceiver in DE or are there simply words on a screen appearing assuming you are looking at this on some type of screen? Is there any sign of separation between you and what "you" are looking at or is there simply image (colour/form) present in awareness? if so, where is the perceiving subject located? Is it a sensation or a thought? How do you know "you" are "here" as opposed to what you are looking at which is "there"? Hope that makes sense.

At risk of repeating myself, this inquiry is based in DE so the more time you can spend in DE the more natural it will feel and the easier it will be to see there is no self/I, centre of experience which is controlling everything.

With your eyes closed, can you feel or perceive the line where "you" stop and everything else begins? Or is there the simply open ended experience of life?

Amrita

Posted: **Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:34 am**

I am defining thought as all mental activities which are "added" to the raw experience of the physical senses. This includes words, images, sounds, non-verbal sounds/mental abstractions. In the case of the non-verbal thought/signal that you are imagining is turning your hand over can it be experienced in sensations or words/pictures/sounds? How do you know the non-verbal thought is there?

I think I'm getting what you're saying. When I am in DE the hand turns over itself. Any "doer".verbal or nonverbal, would be a product of a conceptualization. By default, conceptualization cannot occur in true DE.

I think I am now understanding Harding's "Headless Way". The head cannot exist without conceptualization, and conceptualization can't occur in true DE. This is a digression that you can dismiss if you are not aware of D.E. (Douglas Edison, not Direct Experience :) ) Harding.

With your eyes closed, can you feel or perceive the line where "you" stop and everything else begins? Or is there the simply open ended experience of life?

No, with eyes closed, I cannot perceive the line where I stop and the rest of the universe begins. It is open ended experience.

Let me dwell on this another day.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 4:13 pm**

I continued my mediations through the weekend and during my nature walk I really focussed on DE. I had hiked on the same trail at least 7 times before. During DE it's like it's the first time I've been on the trail. I now see the different perspective you can have during a walking meditation over a sitting meditation.
I feel like I understand what I'm trying to get to with DE, it's still just that I still cannot sustain the experience for very long.

Posted: **Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:41 pm**

Hi,

When you say...

I feel like I understand what I'm trying to get to with DE, it's still just that I still cannot sustain the experience for very long.

can you say a bit more about what you are "trying to get to with DE"? It sounds like there may be an assumption about what this process is and a preconceived idea of what this is about. If anything, this process is about letting go beliefs and ideas rather than substituting the ones we already have for other ones if that makes sense. Where we are trying to get to with this inquiry is for you to see, to really see, there is no self or I at the centre of experience and that we have been believing in a fiction which is not true. Once we can see through the fiction we can see its still there, its just we don't believe to be real any more.

Secondly, can you say what happens when you "cannot sustain the experience" of DE for very long What is happening in your present experience that makes you lose contact with it? Can you look for the point where your experience of DE stops and you get caught up in thinking or thought or whatever happens to you to pull you out of awareness?

As you read these words are "you" aware or is there simply awareness present? Can you say you own this awareness or there simply awareness present?

Posted: **Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:45 am**

Secondly, can you say what happens when you "cannot sustain the experience" of DE for very long What is happening in your present experience that makes you lose contact with it? Can you look for the point where your experience of DE stops and you get caught up in thinking or thought or whatever happens to you to pull you out of awareness?

I guess words come back into my mind, and an internal monologue starts. I daydream and fantasize about possible future events, or just daydream about possible conversations with other people. Or I get lost in memories. Mostly it's an internal monologue/dialogue with myself. Or I'm trying to solve some psychological riddle about myself and why I am the way I am, or why I behave the way I behave. Or maybe a riddle about why others are the way they are and why they behave the way they behave.

As you read these words are "you" aware or is there simply awareness present? Can you say you own this awareness or there simply awareness present?
I believe there is simply awareness present. But I seem to float back and forth between feeling this awareness present, and then back to the monologue as described above.

can you say a bit more about what you are "trying to get to with DE"? It sounds like there may be an assumption about what this process is and a preconceived idea of what this is about. If anything, this process is about letting go beliefs and ideas rather than substituting the ones we already have for other ones if that makes sense. Where we are trying to get to with this inquiry is for you to see, to really see, there is no self or I at the centre of experience and that we have been believing in a fiction which is not true. Once we can see through the fiction we can see its still there, its just we don't believe to be real any more.
I saved your first question for last. I would say that with DE I'm trying to be in a relatively constant state of DE, an awareness of what is happening with my senses in the present moment.
I understand that my ego is fiction, and I feel that I have experienced it, but it seems to come back. Again, maybe because of my internal monologue/fantasy life... Not sure.

Posted: **Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:11 pm**

Hi,

When you say...

I guess words come back into my mind, and an internal monologue starts. I daydream and fantasize about possible future events, or just daydream about possible conversations with other people. Or I get lost in memories. Mostly it's an internal monologue/dialogue with myself. Or I'm trying to solve some psychological riddle about myself and why I am the way I am, or why I behave the way I behave. Or maybe a riddle about why others are the way they are and why they behave the way they behave

What is about the words or monologue that pulls you out of awareness? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content of the thoughts and be simply aware that a thought is occurring? What is is about these types of thoughts that pull "you" into them?

As an exercise can you count how many thoughts are about "you" as opposed to thoughts that are not about "you" in say a minute or 5 minute periods throughout the day.

Amrita

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:32 am**

What is about the words or monologue that pulls you out of awareness? Is it possible to dis-identify from the content of the thoughts and be simply aware that a thought is occurring? What is is about these types of thoughts that pull "you" into them?

I'm not sure what it is. It's like the monologue is vying for my attention. It's definitely a habit that I feel I've had all of my life, or for as long as I have memories. I try to be aware of it as "thought occurring", but it just seems to go on and on, and if it fades, it soon returns.

As an exercise can you count how many thoughts are about "you" as opposed to thoughts that are not about "you" in say a minute or 5 minute periods throughout the day.

It's hard to define a thought as "about me" or "not about me". It all seems to somehow relate back to my ego. I will do more of this exercise tomorrow.

I find that when I'm not in my formal meditation that these thought patterns just creep in unconsciously and I just get lost in them before I realize it's even happening.

Posted: **Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:09 pm**

Hi,

When you say

I'm not sure what it is. It's like the monologue is vying for my attention. It's definitely a habit that I feel I've had all of my life, or for as long as I have memories. I try to be aware of it as "thought occurring", but it just seems to go on and on, and if it fades, it soon returns.

Do you choose where to put your attention ie DE or the internal monologue or does it simply happen? Can you ever choose to be in DE or does it simply happen?

Here is another set of exercises to practice around breaking the pattern of identifying with thoughts and thinking...

Please take your time with this and really explore each question in depth so you can see for yourself that "you" are not "your" thinking...

Sit quietly, relax, and watch one thought after the other come up. Look at each question for about 5 minutes. You don't need to do the exercise in one piece.

Do you bring thoughts? If so from where and how?
Do you send them away?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
Can you know your next thought before it arises and stop it from arising if you don't like it?
Is there is a thought that you can control?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
Did any of these thoughts come on purpose?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?

Good luck X

Posted: **Thu Apr 08, 2021 6:44 am**

Do you bring thoughts? If so from where and how?
Do you send them away?
Do you know what you're going to think before you think it? Sit quietly for a moment and try to predict your next thought. Does it work?
Do you plan what you are going to think before you think it?
]Can you know your next thought before it arises and stop it from arising if you don't like it?

This is really an eye-opening exercise. I want to do it more tomorrow.
No, I don't bring my thoughts, and I don't send them away.
I do not know what I"m going to think before I think it.
You cannot stop the next thought from arising.

[quote
Is there is a thought that you can control?
What can a thought do – what power does it have?
Did any of these thoughts come on purpose?
You experience thoughts, but do you experience the content? Is the content real?[/quote]

Sometimes I feel like I can hold onto a thought or keep a thought coming back and back again, like a mantra...

A thought only has power if I let it have power. A thought cannot make me do anything.

Sometimes I feel that a thought might arise as a rational response to something occurring in the environment. I am alone on a walk and I see a dangerous animal. The thought may arise to climb a tree or grab a rock.

I don't directly experience the content of a thought. It is just an image,not something I"m taking in through my senses.

The content is not real. It is abstract. Even if I'm thinking about a real person, the image in my mind is not the person. Even if I remember a real event that actually occurred, the event is not actually occurring in my mind. The event is in the past. It can't occur in my mind, only in the abstract, as a representation of the past event.

I would say again that this exercise really gets to me. It's like: thoughts are only the experience of thoughts. They are not real. So are you saying that the only reality is what is being experienced by my senses in the here and now? Total DE?

Am I to be a solipsist? I'm half serious here with this question. If I am NOT looking at the moon and seeing the reflection of its light with my eyes.. Does the moon not exist? My body may unconsciously still feel the gravitational pull. The oceans are still full of waves and reflections of moonlight, even if I don't see them, or if some other person/mind is not seeing them.

It's a very interesting headspace. I think these exercises may help me maintain DE for longer periods. I will be doing this more tomorrow.

The Gate

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