Deepening awakening

[Veronique]

Good morning Ron,

Beautiful! Is there a sense of me the subject and an object out there?

Looking deeply there is just what is. It feels the same like what I shared earlier seeing that the table and the body are objects with nothing in. To see that I need to have a close look at it again and again. Nothing is personal everything is.

Let's investigate this, shell we?
First, any time resistance, stress or mental discomfort comes up, it's a clear sign that you’re believing something untrue, an untrue thought. In reality, there is nothing ever wrong, wrong is an interpretation.
Can you clearly see this?

Yes it is true that I am believing in a thought. And wrong is another thought.
Like I already said and see, a thought is appearing, no control whatsoever. I know that and often time I can see it.

But sometimes there is some stickiness and I need to explore that now to see where it is.
For example a thought like "I am not ok" appears.
I can feel some stickiness in that, with the emotion. Sadness appear. This is where there is identification.
If I go on looking sadness is not a problem but a sensation, the thought I should not feel that make it difficult.
I want everything to be smooth and I wand everyone to love me unconditionally.
It is all just thoughts.

Thank you I can see a bit more clearly. I see that it is important for me to explore this! When intense emotions come up, look at the thoughts appearing, which make me think that it is not ok. It will probably help me to let the sensation be what it is, as it is anyway :) I will look at that today.

So when that suffering comes up, it is a sign for you to question the thought and look behind it. That moment of suffering is caused by the thought about the world, and not by the world itself.
Right?

Exactly, I will go on exploring.

And what about the judgment, the remarks made by your friend? Why are they painful?
What is under the need to be liked or loved or appreciated?

They are painful, because the thought I want to be seen, I wand approval, recognition comes up. There is the thought that they are missing, that I did not get enough of it during my childhood especially from men and so on.
Many thoughts and stories :)
And sadness is there, which is only sensations in the body. They appear and disappear.
It is nice to see it like that and realizing that it is all happening.
I am looking forward to keep on exploring it. It is old patterns sometimes very painful.

Is it actually what they think about you, that is the problem? Or is it what YOU think that THEY think about you which is the problem?

It is clearly what I think they think about me.

Are you not reflecting your own beliefs on other people?

Wow, I knew it (mentally) but never saw it that way. All is only my own belief, never what is truly happening. I understand more the story of projection.

Are you not taking everything they do or say and transforming it into your view of what they say and do?
Could these be beliefs you have about yourself, beliefs you don't want anyone to ever know?

Yes totally true. I only react when it touches "a wound" in me, and I make a story around it, with interpretation, I transform it to fit with some beliefs I have about me. Like I am not good enough, I like that one :)
And it is true, there is a belief that I am not lovable that I would rather not want anyone to ever know that.
I am moved to see that, it is sweet. Thank you. Again I repeat myself but I have the feeling I never investigated so closely to see how all this is happening.

So notice carefully, is she to blame for making a nasty remark?
Who is actually judging you?

Of course not. I am judging myself, or better to say judgements are appearing and other thoughts believe it is true. I knew it mentally and now I see it.

Have a beautiful day.

With gratitude and love,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Hello dear Véronique,

Very nice work, and you're very welcome!

I think you have a few things to look at, there is no rush, this can take as long as it does..
I feel like you have everything you need to be flowing forward, effortlessly..
Perhaps the most useful method to look at your painful beliefs and reflections is the work of Byron Katie, I think you'll find it fascinating https://thework.com/sites/francais/

Is there anything you'd like to look at?
Can you clearly say that there is no self, never has been?
Has there been a shift or a change in your perspective?

much love,
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

The truth is simple. If it was complicated, everyone would understand it. ~Walt Whitman

It is beautiful to read that, so true, I can see that I can be caught with confusion sometimes and I forget the simplicity.
It is unusual to stay in this wide open and the habit to contract comes back.
The habit to suffer is there maybe because I secretly wish to be carried, to be taken care of, like a little girl wanting to go in the arm of her loving father.
And I also see that this is just another story, the child is already taken care of and there is nothing to hold on to.

I think you have a few things to look at, there is no rush, this can take as long as it does..
I feel like you have everything you need to be flowing forward, effortlessly..

It does not always feel effortless, now it does, this morning early it did not feel like it.
The story to want to be loved is still believed sometimes... but I look and it drops.

Perhaps the most useful method to look at your painful beliefs and reflections is the work of Byron Katie, I think you'll find it fascinating https://thework.com/sites/francais/

I know Byron Katie and her work. I did it quite a lot already, you are right it is powerful. I will look at it again. And at the same time I think that the process of LU gives me more clarity than looking at thoughts. Writing and having someone reading is amazing.

Is there anything you'd like to look at?

The most difficult thing for me is the idea "I am not there yet" speaking about realization or "I am not ok, I tell myself stories" or when someone tells me his or her opinion about me... It looks like there is an outside there telling me that, but I can see these are core beliefs I have to look at, old conditionings. When it comes again, like I said yesterday, I look that it is just appearing ant that sensations appear as well before or after the thought, and then often thoughts appear again to tell the sensation is not ok. Looking at that already gives clarity. Then maybe I will do the work to unknot the conditioning or look at it in therapy ? What do you think ?

Can you clearly say that there is no self, never has been?

Yes, I can really see there is no-one there. The impression may come, but it is an impression, not the truth.

Has there been a shift or a change in your perspective?

One of the biggest shift, because there was a few, is : "all is happening by itself all the time" at the beginning of the LU process.
And in my life I saw 30 years ago that the universe is infinite love but it was as if it did not include my body to the cells, it felt as if it was not incarnated. Now I see more and more that this love is infinitely big AND infinitely small nothing can be excluded from it.

Love,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Good morning dear Véronique,

It does not always feel effortless, now it does, this morning early it did not feel like it.
The story to want to be loved is still believed sometimes... but I look and it drops.

Do you expect to be awake all the time? You've spend most of your life learning that you are a separate person, looking through eyes in a body that was assumed to be you, and onto a hostile world "out there", having to protect yourself from harm and hurt. Give it time and always questions beliefs - you know the clear post signs of false beliefs - suffering, resistance, stress.

The trick is not to fall into another false belief of "the awakened" who does not allow herself to be suffering, denying it will not work at all, no deception works at all does it? We try and fail so many times at this pretend game. So when you feel the pain, you let it be there, you look at the thoughts behind it and see if they are true - BK works is great for most of these, but you can also just stay with it and offer it no resistance.

The most difficult thing for me is the idea "I am not there yet" speaking about realization or "I am not ok, I tell myself stories" or when someone tells me his or her opinion about me... It looks like there is an outside there telling me that, but I can see these are core beliefs I have to look at, old conditionings. When it comes again, like I said yesterday, I look that it is just appearing ant that sensations appear as well before or after the thought, and then often thoughts appear again to tell the sensation is not ok. Looking at that already gives clarity. Then maybe I will do the work to unknot the conditioning or look at it in therapy ? What do you think ?

The Work packs beautiful power when you add the realization of no self, and that the thoughts are not yours.
They are just thoughts that interpret everything from the colors you see, the sounds you hear, and of course situations. I highly recommend working on your big items, start with your relations with others, turn it around, find out and see clearly your own patterns and projections and then let that be there without resistance or excuses, just see it clearly. When you see it clearly, the relation with the thoughts change, it has to...

I saw 30 years ago that the universe is infinite love but it was as if it did not include my body to the cells, it felt as if it was not incarnated. Now I see more and more that this love is infinitely big AND infinitely small nothing can be excluded from it.

That is a beautiful experience, but don't expect to be there always or even close to always. What you've seen in the past, is in the past, a memory.
The memory of that experience is a thought that appears right now, nothing exists besides now, right this moment, ever! But the thought content, tells a story of something in the presumed past..
but like yesterday's meal it's not there, you can't eat it.

If you cling to an old realization it can becomes a belief again, see that? What needs to happen is a realization anytime you look, and that's why it needs to happen a lot, a habit of looking at the simple experience of color, sounds, sensations..., at some point that imaginary self just loses its power, it's there but not shouting anymore.


much love,
Ron

[Veronique]

Hello dear Ron,

Do you expect to be awake all the time? You've spend most of your life learning that you are a separate person, looking through eyes in a body that was assumed to be you, and onto a hostile world "out there", having to protect yourself from harm and hurt. Give it time and always questions beliefs - you know the clear post signs of false beliefs - suffering, resistance, stress.

You are right, there is something in me that want to be in this space where I see that nothing is personal and that everything is like a danse of the now, as much as possible. It was there almost all of the time during the retreat and it is less present now.

I had a huge migraine yesterday and I was just resisting and suffering. At some point I could see that all this was only sensations and thoughts that did not want these sensations.

The trick is not to fall into another false belief of "the awakened" who does not allow herself to be suffering, denying it will not work at all, no deception works at all does it? We try and fail so many times at this pretend game. So when you feel the pain, you let it be there, you look at the thoughts behind it and see if they are true - BK works is great for most of these, but you can also just stay with it and offer it no resistance.

I understand the story of the awakened one. When I see that all this is happening to no one the suffering is not the same. No more story around it. Only sensations, thoughts appearing and disappearing. Maybe the idea that I should always see it that way. But I see that identification happens and it is ok, it passes too, and it happens to no one :)

The Work packs beautiful power when you add the realization of no self, and that the thoughts are not yours.

I definitely will do it again ! I also asked a deep looking session with Ilona because I have something that comes up during migraine like self hatred and I know it is related to some traumatic experience. I think both (the Work and Ilona) will help me to see clearer.

If you cling to an old realization it can becomes a belief again, see that?

Yes it is clear it is an experience with a beginning and an end. Realization of no one or of what is never started and will never finish.

What needs to happen is a realization anytime you look, and that's why it needs to happen a lot, a habit of looking at the simple experience of color, sounds, sensations..., at some point that imaginary self just loses its power, it's there but not shouting anymore.

This make sense. It feels already like it has less power, when I look I see there is no one again and again. It can be difficult when there is too much of everything or when there is intense pain, like during the migraine yesterday. But I also managed to see it at some point.
With your questions you really made it clear that what is being seen is seen by no one, same with feeling, thinking, listening, touching... This is it.

Have a nice week-end !!!

With love
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Hi Véronique,

Great work, yes it's a fine idea to also incorporate deep looking sessions into resolving traumas and lingering beliefs!
With LU we are focused on the belief in self, so Let me know if there is anything you'd like to bring up, or if you feel ready to answer the final set of questions.

Have a great weekend as well :)

With love,
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

Thank you again for your indications. Yes I feel ready for the final questions, but will answer them on Sunday. I am gone for the weekend.

Looking forward to reading them.

With love,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,

Here are the questions for you, take your time with that, and again, enjoy your weekend.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

3) How does it feel to see this?

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5a. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.
5b. What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

I started answering your questions tonight, but I am very tired and will not finish now. I will go on this week. It is important for me to take time for these final questions.

Will come back to you in the next two or three days. Hope this is fine for you ?

With love,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,
Yes, of course, there is no rush at all.
Keep in mind that your answers should come from experience, from simple looking, although some questions do refer to e.g. how it felt, what emotions were experienced (if any) etc. But it's not an intellectual quiz, it's meant to see if anything is left unclear, so just tell it like it is :)

with love
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No there was never a separate self, like an hologram it looks like it is real but when you look closely you see it is just an illusion. There was never one and there will never be one too.
I still need to look to see it so maybe there is not a full realization, but when I look it is obvious.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience.

When I get caught in thoughts like wanting things to be different, I am fighting life as it is, when there is too much going on and so on, if I believe in the story and do not look, it feels like there is a me to whom all this is happening. Not looking make a contraction this is all happening to a body mind organism called Véronique.

3) How does it feel to see this?

It is freeing. There is nothing I can do about it, things are just happening.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

I see clearly that there is no one, everything is happening by itself. Like colors cannot be different as what they are everything can only be what it is. No control even on trying to control 

I see better than ever that all is just appearing and happening by itself.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Not quite sure when but in the middle of the process it was obvious more than ever before. All is just happening. Like you the Bahiya Sutta you share with me.

In the seen, there is only the seen,
in the heard, there is only the heard,
in the sensed, there is only the sensed,
in the cognized, there is only the cognized.
Thus you should see that indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself

5a. Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?

Don’t know how it works, thoughts appear probably because of conditioning, education, etc. and wanting to follow or not the thoughts with a special action happen (another thought appear and say yes let’s do it or not)

Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Wanting to have a cup of tea just appear as a thought and sometimes I don’t even see the though, the impulse just appears and I make the tea. Don’t know why tea and not coffee, habits but why this habit I don’t know.

5b. What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Who could be responsible for something? Again, it all just happens.

6) Anything to add?

I saw a video of Ilona this morning where she speaks about the difference between a glimpse, the intellectual understanding and the recognition, she says that when the recognition happens there is no way to believe again that you are a separate self. I can see that and still the impression comes back when I don’t look. What would you recommend? Looking again and again? Doing the exercise? How can I go? I see that there is no separate self and I also see that I can still be caught in stories.

Thank you again and again for this wonderful journey. It gives me very much clarity!!!

Have a beautiful day,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,
Thanks for your replies!
I see the added clarity in your answers but like you, I suspect there is something missing. We're going to take another look at some of these items, and take it slow.

When I get caught in thoughts like wanting things to be different, I am fighting life as it is, when there is too much going on and so on, if I believe in the story and do not look, it feels like there is a me to whom all this is happening. Not looking make a contraction this is all happening to a body mind organism called Véronique.

What is a belief in thought?
Here are two thoughts for you:
1. Elephants are big
2. unicorns are always purple
What makes some thoughts seen as true, and some easy to dismiss?


How about a story? What makes that sticky?
"I'm not as smart/pretty as my friend"

Is there someone or something that believes the thought content?
Really look, don't speculate or rationalize, anything you can find?


The illusion of self is more than a thought, somehow all experience is veiled thorough this idea of self.
What can you find other than thoughts that make you feel like you are a separate self and the world is outside of you?


with love
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

I see the added clarity in your answers but like you, I suspect there is something missing. We're going to take another look at some of these items, and take it slow.

Fine I am happy to look deeper, I enjoy our exchanges very much that it is nice to go on exploring with you.

What is a belief in thought?
Here are two thoughts for you:
1. Elephants are big
2. unicorns are always purple
What makes some thoughts seen as true, and some easy to dismiss?

The two thoughts you are proposing are just descriptions, no identification is sticking, it is what is, no story around it. What make thoughts look as if they are true for me is related to past conditioning, old wounds. Like a story repeating itself. Let's go back to the thought I am not good enough, it came from childhood or maybe even from my parent's childhood etc... The thought come up and then there is another thought that believe the initial thought. Like a chain reaction. I really have to take time to do the Byron Katie work on that one.

How about a story? What makes that sticky?
"I'm not as smart/pretty as my friend"

I also answered that question just before.

Is there someone or something that believes the thought content?
Really look, don't speculate or rationalize, anything you can find?

I will go on looking today, but right now I can say that thoughts are commenting thoughts. Thoughts believe the thought content... Again when I look there is no one, only thoughts, sensations, colors, images appearing, an impression of a me but it has no substance. Same answer again :)

The illusion of self is more than a thought, somehow all experience is veiled thorough this idea of self.
What can you find other than thoughts that make you feel like you are a separate self and the world is outside of you?

Appearance of a body moving by itself can make me believe there is some one in control but again when I look there is no one in there...
Identification with unpleasant sensations can make me think there is a separation, and looking shows me they have no real substance, they are just sensations coming and going by themselves.

Maybe the impression that I am my thoughts and they are controlling life is a strong one. But I also see that things are happening without thoughts about it and it is very clear that no one is creating thoughts. What is the use of thoughts really ? none ? It feels as if I am going backwards somewhere but not really. I am blank. I just don't know anymore, and it is nice like that. I will stay with that.

Enjoy your day :)

Love,
Véronique

[Ronaldo]

Dear Véronique,
Thank you :)

Thoughts believe the thought content... Again when I look there is no one, only thoughts, sensations, colors, images appearing, an impression of a me but it has no substance. Same answer again :)

Can thoughts believe? That would make them a sort of entity with a tiny brain and 4 little legs :)
Who is believing?
What does it mean to believe?
Find out, take the time and look many times, use the unpleasant thoughts to investigate, because when you have an unpleasant thought there is a belief hiding there.

Appearance of a body moving by itself can make me believe there is some one in control but again when I look there is no one in there...

To me appearance of body parts moving clearly shows that there is nobody in there, only thoughts around body movement can confuse that with a "me". Watch the body moving as often as awareness of the body moving comes up, and watch it.

Identification with unpleasant sensations can make me think there is a separation, and looking shows
me they have no real substance, they are just sensations coming and going by themselves.

What are unpleasant sensations? Are you talking about all sort of physical pains, or emotions?
Next time, whether it is pain or an emotions, try to look at that sensation and let it be there without tags.

Maybe the impression that I am my thoughts and they are controlling life is a strong one. But I also see that things are happening without thoughts about it and it is very clear that no one is creating thoughts. What is the use of thoughts really ? none ? It feels as if I am going backwards somewhere but not really. I am blank. I just don't know anymore, and it is nice like that. I will stay with that.

Answering what is the purpose of thoughts, would just be more thought.
The feeling of going backwards is common, it's caused by trying to figure this out with thinking, and arriving (again) to a point where it doesn't makes sense in thought. Staying with not knowing is not bad.


The reason you are not seeing clearly is that you're pulled into thoughts and not realizing that you are there. As the common phrase "lost in thought".
Let me pull a couple of your previous answer now.

Don’t know how it works, thoughts appear probably because of conditioning, education, etc. and wanting to follow or not the thoughts with a special action happen (another thought appear and say yes let’s do it or not)

Thoughts appear for whatever reason. Thought causing action or making a decision is another big illusion. Look for yourself and be the judge of that.
- how many actions are done without any thought? Where are your hands now? Did you decide to put them there?
- notice how often the thought comes after the action (it's subtle)
- if thought causes action, find that link between them, really look for it!
- looks at this short video of Spira, it's more about choice but at the end it also talks about action https://youtu.be/V560v1eQJzA?t=60


Take a day or two and spend time looking at this, you are believing thoughts to be experience and that is what you need to become aware of.

Love
Ron

[Veronique]

Dear Ron,

Ok I will take two days to explore your questions and come back to you then.

Thanks a lot !
Véronique