Seeing No Self

[Leviathan77]

Nice to hear, Leviathan.
With your permission I'd like to allow the other guides an opportunity to offer questions?
Would that be ok?

Hey Pablo.
Yes, that would alright with me.

[pozablo]

Here are some questions more experienced guides have suggested.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Cheers,
/p

[Leviathan77]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Other than in a conditioned form of speech, there is a no me, nor was there ever. The sense of a distinction between the inner and outer worlds was artificial, an illusion separating a me and the rest of the world.

2) Share in your own words what the illusion of separate self is and how it shows up in experience. Also, through your inquiry, what is different now?

The illusion of a separate self is like an interface, or conduit through which there is awareness. There is an experience of a separate self in the awareness of there being an organism to care for. It no longer seems that thoughts are ‘mine’ or feelings are ‘mine,’ they ebb and flow like tides in the experience of the Self.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like existence is a dream, and that ‘me’ is just a figment, or character in that dream. There is no longer a sense of a life belonging to ‘me,’ even when seeing a me emerge and then be reabsorbed, in thought. All tension, effort, joys, etc. are contained within that dream, but are not ‘mine.’

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It was looking to see through the illusion of a ‘me’ as some real object in the world. I could see ‘me’ as being like an apparition, or phantom in awareness.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

Decisions, choices, intentions, etc. are just sudden formulations in the experience of the Self. There is no freedom of will or control in what is expressed from the Self as a choice, a preference, etc. The agent is just another formulation or expression of the Self, and possesses no control over other formulations/differentiations of the Self. There is no cause in what makes thing happen; everything is in the process of happening or becoming.

If there is a sudden appetite for a tuna fish sandwich, there is no premeditation to produce that craving. Thoughts arise, emotion compels and propels the body in motion. There is then the experience of satisfying that craving when eating the sandwich. But none of this is ownership of having the craving or eating the sandwich. There is just watching this happen to the character ‘me.’

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

There is no responsibility or ownership of 'my' life. This character in a dream is being experienced as an involuntary happening of the Self. In making the decision to walk to the grocery store, there is the experience of a thought, emotion, the experience of walking, but this is all contained within the experience of the Self. There is responsibility of individual thoughts or action, but the awareness of the various factors interacting in experience.

6) Anything to add?

Not at this time, no.

[pozablo]

Thanks Leviathan, I'll submit this to the gang.
I'm very happy for you.

[Leviathan77]

I can see the character me, self-contained in thought, but see that has no impact on the rest of what is happening. It is not perfectly effortless all the time, but I can look through the illusion of me, and give less attention to thought, as just something that arises like feeling or sensation.

It's like the experience of an imaginary hand releasing an imaginary object.

[pozablo]

HaHa, nice!

We're just waiting for a couple more guides to check-in.
/p

[pozablo]

Leviathan, some of the more experienced guides have some excellent questions.
They relate to the conceptual thinking that we addressed early on in our conversation.

Can you answer them by describing what is in your actual experience, rather than thoughts about the experience?
Please refer to my earlier comments on concepts vs experience.
This is a huge difference. And a crucial factor.

"The illusion of a separate self is like an interface, or conduit through which there is awareness."

Do you see (literally) the separate self to be a conduit which through awareness appears? Or is this just a poetic story?
What is here in experience that is mistaken for a separate self?

"There is an experience of a separate self in the awareness of there being an organism to care for."

Are you saying that in order for the body to survive there has to be a separate self that takes care of it?

"It feels like existence is a dream, and that ‘me’ is just a figment, or character in that dream."

Existence is a dream?
Is there a difference between existence and awareness?
What is in your experience that indicates this?

"I could see ‘me’ as being like an apparition, or phantom in awareness."

Is this really what you see? Do you really see an apparition?
What is awareness?
Please describe what is the separate self without using the words of apparition, phantom, dream?

"The agent is just another formulation or expression of the Self, and possesses no control over other formulations/differentiations of the Self."

What is the agent?
And what is this Self that "formulates" the agent?

["I just don't get the whole sentence, maybe I'm really dense..!"]

"Decisions, choices, intentions, etc. are just sudden formulations in the experience of the Self. "

Formulations? When a decision happens, do you literally see/experience a formulation?

"There is no freedom of will or control in what is expressed from the Self as a choice, a preference, etc. The agent is just another formulation or expression of the Self, and possesses no control over other formulations/differentiations of the Self.
This character in a dream is being experienced as an involuntary happening of the Self."

You are talking about this Self (with capital S) or awareness as if it were an entity. So instead of identifying as a separate self, now it seems that that awareness or this Self is an involuntary doer (as you wrote).
But is this really so? Or is this just a speculation?

"There is just watching this happen to the character ‘me.’"

What is it that is watching? Where is the watcher?

Thoughts arise, emotion compels and propels the body in motion.

The body is propelled due to thoughts?
If there is something in your direct experience that indicates this, please describe.

" There is responsibility of individual thoughts or action, but the awareness of the various factors interacting in experience."

What does a 'responsibility of individual thought or action' mean? Could you give an example?
And what is it that is responsible for individual thought or action?

Are all of these really something you see in experience, or is this an elaborate story heard from others or read in books?

[Leviathan77]

Do you see (literally) the separate self to be a conduit which through awareness appears? Or is this just a poetic story?

No, a separate self is not needed not to act as a conduit for awareness. You're right, that's just a poetic image.

What is here in experience that is mistaken for a separate self?

Thought and labels create the illusion of a separate self.

Are you saying that in order for the body to survive there has to be a separate self that takes care of it?

I'm confusing my terms here. I mean there is an organism that recognizes itself as an organism and for cares for itself as an organism automatically (eating, sleeping, etc.), without the need for intervention of a separate self.

Existence is a dream?
Is there a difference between existence and awareness?
What is in your experience that indicates this?

I mean there is a distinction between the world of form, and things occurring, and awareness of this world. I see thought occurring, feeling occurring, things happening in the world, all within a field of awareness that exists beyond the world of form. So the assumption that reality, the world of form, must be what it is is illusory, or like a dream.

Is this really what you see? Do you really see an apparition?
What is awareness?
Please describe what is the separate self without using the words of apparition, phantom, dream?

Apparition seemed like an accurate description. I see through the story and assumption of me in thinking, and fade away like it doesn't even exist. The separate self is an assumption of a me that exists independent of thought, feeling, the body, etc. That affects and is distinct from what is happening in the universe. Awareness is the field in where everything occurs, and everything is seen but is itself formless.

What is the agent?
And what is this Self that "formulates" the agent?

The agent is the idea of a 'me' existing independently of thought, feeling, and sensation. But it is just a label in thought. The Self is the field of awareness, or formlessness, that sees all thought, felling, things ... occurring.

Formulations? When a decision happens, do you literally see/experience a formulation?

By formulation I mean coming into awareness spontaneously, out of nothing. Yes, a decision happens spontaneously.

You are talking about this Self (with capital S) or awareness as if it were an entity. So instead of identifying as a separate self, now it seems that that awareness or this Self is an involuntary doer (as you wrote).
But is this really so? Or is this just a speculation?

You're right. It's not an involuntary doer, but reflects, or witnesses, all that is happening which spontaneously emerges from nothing.

What is it that is watching? Where is the watcher?

I cant find the watcher. It's formless, a void, but sees everything, all thoughts, feelings, etc. It is the source of awareness.

The body is propelled due to thoughts?
If there is something in your direct experience that indicates this, please describe.

I just meant in the sense that there is an interplay of thoughts, feelings, movement, that does not require a separate self to intervene or direct action. It happens on its own.

What does a 'responsibility of individual thought or action' mean? Could you give an example?
And what is it that is responsible for individual thought or action?

Are all of these really something you see in experience, or is this an elaborate story heard from others or read in books?

I meant there is 'no responsibility.' There is only watching these things occuring.

These are based on real perceptions that I have evidently turned into a story. It was an aspect of my own confusion.

[pozablo]

Thanks for the clarifications, Leviathan.
I'll run them by the more experienced folks and get back to you.

[Leviathan77]

Hey Pablo. I'm just checking in.

[pozablo]

I've been waiting for some others to pitch in.
Will get back to you this afternoon or tomorrow.

[pozablo]

Hi Leviathan,

Have gotten a fair amount of feedback, all still focused on your tendency to report thoughts about what's happening rather than descriptions of what's happening. A lot of what you report sounds like somebody else's teachings (and there are LOTS of "teachers"!), but it isn't your direct experience. This is very common, but we'll keep working on it.

If you don't want our back and forth to go on forever, you've got to report only what happens in your experience, not what you or anybody else thinks about it.

Thought and labels create the illusion of a separate self.

Are you sure about this?
Watch carefully when there are no thoughts.
Do you actually experience this creation of one thing by another?

there is an organism that recognizes itself as an organism and for cares for itself as an organism automatically (eating, sleeping, etc.), without the need for intervention of a separate self.

That is a thought about it.
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.
What is the difference between the organism that recognizes and the organism that is recognized?
Is that distinction actually happening in experience?
If not, what is?

there is a distinction between the world of form, and things occurring, and awareness of this world.

That is a thought about it.
Describe this distinction, not from what you have read, thought, or been taught.
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.

all within a field of awareness that exists beyond the world of form.

Again, that is a thought about the nature of awareness!
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.

Awareness is the field in where everything occurs

At least, all that we can experience as occurring.
Or is everything everywhere occurring in your personal direct experience?

everything is seen but is itself formless.

Sounds like more thoughts.
What sees everything?
What do you experience as form and what do you experience that is formless?

The Self is the field of awareness, or formlessness, that sees all thought, felling, things ... occurring.

Please describe to me the differenece between the self that sees and that which is seen.

[Self] It's not an involuntary doer, but reflects, or witnesses, all that is happening which spontaneously emerges from nothing.

So there is a self which witnesses?
Please clearly describe to me the difference between the self that sees and that which is seen.

I cant find the watcher. It's formless, a void, but sees everything, all thoughts, feelings, etc. It is the source of awareness

.
What is it in your personal experience which sees?

there is 'no responsibility.' There is only watching these things occuring

What is it that is watching?
Where is this watcher?

Cheers,
/p

u

[Leviathan77]

Are you sure about this?
Watch carefully when there are no thoughts.
Do you actually experience this creation of one thing by another?

No. I don't experience thoughts creating other thoughts. I only experience a stream of thoughts, with a 'me' interspersed.But I see that me is just a reference point to other thoughts, and is not needed as a reference point.

That is a thought about it.
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.
What is the difference between the organism that recognizes and the organism that is recognized?
Is that distinction actually happening in experience?
If not, what is?

The organism, or the body, is only recognized through labels as being distinct. Nothing needs to be done for the organism to exist as it is.

That is a thought about it.
Describe this distinction, not from what you have read, thought, or been taught.
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.

There are various thoughts and sensations that arise suddenly and definitely. And then there is a sense of being that feels unbounded, like a backdrop to everything that is occurring. All thoughts are experienced, all feelings experienced, as part of this sense of being.

Again, that is a thought about the nature of awareness!
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.

Thoughts are experienced, feelings are experienced, and all of this occurs within awareness.

At least, all that we can experience as occurring.
Or is everything everywhere occurring in your personal direct experience?

Yes, everything occurring locally. But that's also the edge of reality.

Sounds like more thoughts.
What sees everything?
What do you experience as form and what do you experience that is formless?

There is an energetic and deep sense of being that exists behind thoughts and feelings at all times.

Please describe to me the differenece between the self that sees and that which is seen.
So there is a self which witnesses?
Please clearly describe to me the difference between the self that sees and that which is seen.

The self that is seen is a false center sitting in front of awareness, as fixed and permanent. It is like a character actor that acts as the center to thoughts, feelings, the body, etc. The self that sees witnesses thoughts and feelings. it is a deep sense of being.

What is it in your personal experience which sees?
What is it that is watching?
Where is this watcher?

Everything personal is part of the self seen. Awareness is what is watching, and exists behind the personal. Every thought and feeling is contextualized by awareness. Feelings of fatigue, or humor, are seen by the watcher. but happen apart from the watcher. There is a continuity of experience that is the watcher, in which everything else happens.

[pozablo]

Those are almost all just more thoughts about it.
This is not a mid-term exam on Current Popular Spiritual Beliefs 101.

This process only works if you will PLEASE JUST TELL ME WHAT YOU YOURSELF ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE!

Please go back and answer the questions again.


:-)
/P

[Leviathan77]

Do you actually experience this creation of one thing by another?

No, thoughts show up suddenly and pass through the mind without creating other thoughts. There is just a stream of thoughts being created from nowhere.

Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.
What is the difference between the organism that recognizes and the organism that is recognized?
Is that distinction actually happening in experience?
If not, what is?

The organism is what is recognized, and does not do the recognizing. I am aware of the experience of the organism, but there is a feeling separation between the organism and the watcher.

Describe this distinction, not from what you have read, thought, or been taught.
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.
Just tell me simply what is happening in experience.

The watcher is still, and silent, and nothing is happening. Everything happening occurs in thinking, feeling, and sensations. The watcher sees everything happening, but feels it exists beyond everything happening. If I move to a different location, and change the surroundings, I still feel like not having moved because of the stillness of the watcher.

Or is everything everywhere occurring in your personal direct experience?

Everything that my senses can pick up is occurring in my direct experience.

What sees everything?
What do you experience as form and what do you experience that is formless?

Form is all sensations, feelings, and thoughts, and formlessness is consciousness or awareness behind all of these experiences. The watcher is the awareness that sees everything happening in experience. It is not thoughts, not feelings, but it is what is experiencing all of these things happening.

Please describe to me the differenece between the self that sees and that which is seen.
So there is a self which witnesses?
Please clearly describe to me the difference between the self that sees and that which is seen.

The self that is seen is just a story of ‘me’ happening in the mind, that is completely uncontrolled. Thoughts and feelings about ‘me’ show up and then disappear, and are a tension in the head. There is a false distinction between thoughts and feelings that are ‘me’ and thoughts and feelings that are happening to ‘me’ but all thoughts and feeling are happening. The self that sees is separate from everything that is happening, not attached. Just watching

What is it in your personal experience which sees?

The personal is what is seen as being ‘me’ by what is seeing.

What is it that is watching?
Where is this watcher?

The watcher is awareness that exists behind experience of thoughts, feelings, and the senses. The watcher does not exist anywhere in thoughts or feelings, but witnesses everything happening to ‘me.’