My journey

[Punjab1]

Good afternoon dear Ron

Thanks for your kind feedback.

I’m at work today doing a long shift so I won’t be able to do my work today. However investigation is happening all the time so it doesn’t matter if I am at work or home.

Regarding the questions you asked me, to answer them I really need to sit and look. I will have more time tomorrow so will send you the work tomorrow.

Many thanks
Monika

[Ronaldo]

OK, sounds good Monika,
Hope you have a nice day.
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good morning Ron

No, the body doesn’t have any weight or volume. Only thought comes and labels the weight."

Ron, I did not write this from my direct experience. Whenever I meet someone, I just see that person then afterwards thoughts start putting a label on that person like he or she is fat or thin or about skin colour.
In direct experience body does have a weight.

:Does the body experience sensations and thought?

Yes, the body does experience sensations and thoughts. For an example, yesterday I felt cold walking to my car after finishing work last night. After putting the heating on in my car, I felt the warmth on my skin. I do see everything with the eyes and hear from my ears. I taste and smell food.

Is there an inside or an outside [to the body]?"

From my direct experience, I’m aware that if I put my hand on my heart, I know that the heartbeat I can feel is coming from inside my body. There is a knowledge that if I look in a mirror, what I see is on the outside.

Is there a body experienced directly?

Body does experience directly by touching, seeing, hearing, knowing, tasting and smelling.
I also noticed, how much time I spend with my thoughts by doing that I am ignoring the direct experience of life.
Is living in a now and direct experience the same?

Kind regards
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,

I am not sure where these answers comes from, this reply is just the opposite of all your previous replies, going back to where we started, or, there was a serious language misunderstanding going on. It's OK, we'll get back on track.

We started this inquiry by explaining what Direct Experience (DE) is - it's the five senses and not the story thoughts tell. This reply is all about what thoughts say "fat", "ugly", "tall", "beautiful".. none of these are DE! Is there anything in direct experience that can be tall? Isn't "tall" a concept, a pure thought?

When I say "the body" I mean YOUR body Monika, not looking at someone else. I deliberately avoided saying "your body" because it's not yours more than the mountain is yours.

From my direct experience, I’m aware that if I put my hand on my heart, I know that the heartbeat I can feel is coming from inside my body. There is a knowledge that if I look in a mirror, what I see is on the outside.

This is not Direct Experience, this is 100% all thought content. If you put your hand on your heart and close your eyes, all that can be seen in DE is a sensation - the rest is thought explanation. Is that clear?


When you close your eyes, can you tell how tall Monika is? You can feel, hear, taste or smell, but is there is a sense of how high or heavy the body is? Is "how tall" coming from sense perception or from thought?

Remember the hand on table exercise?

I put my hand on the table, closed my eyes, felt the sensation. When I opened my eyes , thought labelled the
Hand and table . Another thought labelled that sensation was coming from my hand, but actual sensation was just a sensation.

Here you experienced no boundary, no hand, just sensation! That's the right description.
So how is it now so different with the body? [your body], so I don't understand your newer replies.


Is it clear what DE is? If not we're going in circles.
Please do go back and read through our correspondence again - it's all there!
If, or when it is clear to you, please answer these again:

Sit quietly for a few moments, close your eyes!
then start noticing using only DE - not thought content.

Can it be known how tall the body [your body!] is?
Does the [your] body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside [to your body]?

What is the actual experience of the body?

Please take an extra day if you need, read our thread again, do the exercise again, and let me know what you find.

Regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good afternoon Ron

Can it be known how tall the body [your body!] is?

No, It can’t be known, how tall or short the body is. Only thought comes and labels the size.

Does the [your] body have a weight or volume?

No, the body doesn’t have any weight or volume. Only thoughts labels the weight and volume.

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

In actual experience body doesn’t have any shape or form. In actual experience there are just senses and thoughts.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No there is no boundary between the body and the clothes and whenever I sit on the chair I don’t feel any boundary. Just sensations and thoughts labels that I am sitting on the chair.

Is there an inside or an outside [to your body]?

No, there is no inside or outside of the body. Only thoughts labels the inside or outside of the body.

What is the actual experience of the body?
In actual experience there are just sensations and thoughts. This morning when I was making breakfast my body was just moving and doing things. There were just sensations and thoughts. When I held the mug of tea, thought came and labelled that I was holding a hot cup of tea. Also label which is hand and which one is mug.

I hope, all this is making sense Ron.
Thank you very much for everything
Kind regards
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,

Is it absolutely clear and seen that there you are not the thinker of thoughts, and there is no thinker?

Is it clearly seen that the body moves and does things, and there is no controller, no doer?

This is important, even when these are clearly seen, don't expect to never again be inside thought stories, don't expect that you will not seem to be the thinker and doer, this illusion will continue to appear that way, as it has been. The point is, that at any time you can pause, look and see what is real and what is fictional, what is assumed and believed from the added thoughts.

if there is doubt - let me know, you would be cheating yourself if this is not clear and we move forward.
If there is doubt, please give me examples and explain what seems to be in the way.

R: What is the actual experience of the body?

M: In actual experience there are just sensations and thoughts. This morning when I was making breakfast my body was just moving and doing things. There were just sensations and thoughts. When I held the mug of tea, thought came and labelled that I was holding a hot cup of tea. Also label which is hand and which one is mug.

Yes, so what is the actual experience of the body? Can you experience a body, or you can only ever experience sensations that are tagged as "my body", "my hand" etc?

What is it that you consider "me", "I", "Monika"?


I hope the lock-down treats you well,
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good evening Ron

Is it absolutely clear and seen that there you are not the thinker of thoughts, and there is no thinker?

Ron, it is clear that thoughts just come and go . I don’t choose the thoughts and I don’t know where they come from and where they go.

I am aware of them most of the time. Thoughts come and then go, and I am always left with present moments. Like hear the noise or my breathing.
Although I am aware of them and see them coming and going they still trouble me from time to time. I find myself focusing on them. I am still working on them.

Is it clearly seen that the body moves and does things, and there is no controller, no doer?

I have seen that the body moves and does things automatically. There are just thoughts and sensations . I still have to remind myself all the time that I am not the body. This is still new for me. Every time I experience pain or say an itch, I just stop and see what is really happening, and find that it is a just a sensation and thoughts that is labelling this experience.

What is it that you consider "me", "I", "Monika"?

I don’t know the the answer for this question Ron. I used to think I am a body, but know I can’t say that because the body is not Monika. I don’t even live inside the body because there is no inside and outside of the body. I am not even my thoughts. But I must be somewhere because things still hurt Monika. I still feel upset and scared. I still worry.
I don’t know where is this “I”, the one feeling everything.

Love
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Dear Monika,

Although I am aware of them and see them coming and going they still trouble me from time to time. I find myself focusing on them. I am still working on them.

This is a good opportunity to talk about expectations. Expectations are much like beliefs, they stand in the way of realization because rather than seeing what is there at the moment, everything is projected and compared to an idea, a thought of how it should be. People have ideas and expectations about what it would be like to realize no self, to awaken from the dream, but all of these are simply not true, they are all thought content. How would thought know what is beyond (or maybe before) thought? It will not be what you expect. To name a few such common expectations:

- expecting that you will never again fall for thoughts, or have any... :)
- expecting that you will never identify with being a separate person in a body looking out into the external world
- expecting a new state of joy and peacefulness
- expecting to never get upset, sad, lonely or stressed again
- expecting no suffering... even if the self is seen as an illusion, suffering does not end, a lot of suffering and stress is very deep conditioning, patterns that are not simple to untangle and see through. However, it does become easier to deal with such issues, they become more accessible.

The self illusion is also not the end of the road, rather it's the beginning, the first step. Reactivity, stress and the whole spectrum of unwanted human emotions is not going to vanish, even if there is nobody there to be stressed, lonely or sad.

So if you can drop any and all expectations and allow anything that comes up to just appear - it would be clearing the path for your inquiry. I hope this makes sense.

R: What is it that you consider "me", "I", "Monika"?

I don’t know the the answer for this question Ron. I used to think I am a body, but know I can’t say that because the body is not Monika. I don’t even live inside the body because there is no inside and outside of the body. I am not even my thoughts.

Are these statements about not being the body or mind coming from an intellectual reasoning, or is this something you see in your experience?
Were there any emotions realizing this at all? If so can you describe how it felt/feels?

When you close your eyes and look for a self, just like you'd look for a mosquito in a dark room - listen, sense with acute attention, where is that self? What can you find? Does anything come up?

But I must be somewhere because things still hurt Monika. I still feel upset and scared. I still worry.
I don’t know where is this “I”, the one feeling everything.

Isn't looking for someone that feels everything, that sees and hears everything a belief? Why must there be an entity that is the subject or the owner of experience? What if there is only experience?
If there is something that feels and thinks and does, it should be found. What if in the seen there is only the seen? In the heard, only the heard (the sound), and in the cognized (the thought), all is just experience self knowing of experience - no me, no observer, no self, a self has never been outside the story.

Let's take another deep look. Does feeling scared, upset or worried mean that there is a self?
Just like we did during our call - find a quiet moment in your day where you will not be disturbed, and just relax and breath for a while.
- Next bring up a thought that causes you some mild sadness or stress, something you can handle.
- Notice that the thought seem to raise a body sensation
- The normal reaction is to try to run away from the sensation and the thought, but don't.
- Focus on the sensation, look at it as if it was a rare type of butterfly, you are only examining it, trying to sense it fully... curiosity is your friend! What is this sensation made of? If you ignore the tag "I don't like it", "it hurts", "it's in my throat/chest/whatever" - just go to the sensation and let it be!
- Is there anything more to this fear/sadness/stress than the thoughts and the sensations? Can you stay with it?
In this process - did you see a self other than thoughts about Monika and these sensations tagged as "my body"?
Please describe the sensation, where it was felt, how it felt, and what you found.

I gave you a lot! Please take a couple of days with this.
I hope this is clear and helpful
Regards
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good evening Ron

I really liked the work you gave me. I am really struggling, about how to answer the things you asked.

Expectations are much like beliefs, they stand in the way of realization because rather than seeing what is there at the moment, everything is projected and compared to an idea, a thought of how it should be.

Thanks Ron for explaining about expectations to me. Yes it is so true that in every situation, every scene and in every role my thoughts are always coming and projecting the outcome. I know it is not going to finish overnight. For so many years I have believed in each and every thought and never seen what is there as it is. But I have seen that by believing thoughts and expecting things my way only brings suffering. I don’t even know what I am expecting in every situation is any good for me or not.

Ron, you also asked me to close my eyes and look for the self.
I tried that, when I closed my eyes the first thing that appeared was the image of me, afterwards thoughts then labelled the image as ‘Monika’. I tried to find myself but there were just thoughts-lots and lots of them. I couldn’t find myself when I sat down and looked for it but yesterday and today I just noticed that all day long my thoughts were regarding Monika. Examples of this are how I should be doing things, getting or being late for work, judging each and every scene. Other examples are making plans about the future, judging how Monika is feeling, all the thoughts I had noticed were just commenting about Monika’s past and future.
I just found thoughts and labels. I never noticed this before how much I judge each scene . So much came up. But couldn’t find the self. I am still looking..

Ron, you also gave me the exercise, to sit bringing up a situation and see and explore what is there.

I tried this exercise but couldn’t finish it because the whole experience wasn’t very pleasant. I will try again and again until I can explore them. I am working on this.

Ron, I will not leave this work here . I will carry on practicing all the tasks. I don’t know if what I’ve written is making any sense or not. I find it really hard to express myself.


Thanks for all your help and support
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,

The long list of expectations I outlined are very common. if you become aware that you're falling into such expectations and ideas it will be easier to recognize them as such, and maybe drop them.

For so many years I have believed in each and every thought and never seen what is there as it is. But I have seen that by believing thoughts and expecting things my way only brings suffering. I don’t even know what I am expecting in every situation is any good for me or not.

Yes... isn't it amazing how we grow up believing every thought to be true and real? To be ours? The reality is that they are not our thoughts and we have no say or control in their appearance or content.

We have many patterns that have been ingrained over the years, they are almost like computer hardware - the part of the computer that runs all programs and cannot be changed. For example even if things are calm and good, many people can get stressed all of a sudden, because there's an expectation that something bad is going to happen next. The only thing permanent in life is change, things constantly move and shift.

But patterns don't change because you want them to, have you ever noticed? For example, here you can see that projecting an unwanted future causes suffering, so why not stop projecting a bad future? Ha! Well, you can't do it because you don't control thoughts, they aren't yours and they clearly don't take orders from.... from what?
from other thoughts!
Patterns can't change from a thinking process, nor by will power.
But something interesting can happen when looking at them with curiosity and no judgments, just like what I gave you as homework :)

Ron, you also asked me to close my eyes and look for the self.
I tried that, when I closed my eyes the first thing that appeared was the image of me, afterwards thoughts then labelled the image as ‘Monika’.

Yes... good job looking :)

I tried to find myself but there were just thoughts-lots and lots of them. I couldn’t find myself when I sat down and looked for it but yesterday and today I just noticed that all day long my thoughts were regarding Monika. Examples of this are how I should be doing things, getting or being late for work, judging each and every scene. Other examples are making plans about the future, judging how Monika is feeling, all the thoughts I had noticed were just commenting about Monika’s past and future.
I just found thoughts and labels. I never noticed this before how much I judge each scene . So much came up. But couldn’t find the self. I am still looking..

You did well, you couldn't find a self, all you found are lots and loads of thoughts about a Monika character, that is correct! But did you miss something?
When you do it next time, notice that there are also sensations, what are they?
How are these sensations tagged by thoughts?

I tried this exercise but couldn’t finish it because the whole experience wasn’t very pleasant. I will try again and again until I can explore them. I am working on this.

Yes, I understand. Don't go into traumas, don't go to very stressful or fearful scenarios, start with something that you can handle, something minor.
Keep in mind, there is nothing that can really hurt you here, it's made up of thoughts and sensations right? No real danger at any time.

What you have written all makes perfect sense, you're doing very well Monika!

Thanks for all your help and support

You are very welcome.

Ron

[Punjab1]

Good afternoon Ron

Ron, I wanted to inform you that I won’t be able to send any work today because I am at work till midnight UK time.

Thank you for your feedback , I am really enjoying the whole experience.
Now don’t ask me who is this ‘I ‘ that is enjoying the experience 😁 .

I will try to send you the work tomorrow.

Many thanks
Monika

[Ronaldo]

No problem, thanks for letting me know Monika.
Have a nice day,
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good morning Ron

First of all I want to apologise for not sending the work yesterday .

I tried to look again this morning. As soon as I opened my eyes thought came what things Monika is going to do today, planning the day, what activities to plan for our twin girls, think about what to eat for lunch and dinner. It was on and on about Monika’s day.
I also noticed, thoughts also tagged every sensation I had.

When you do it next time, notice that there are also sensations, what are they?
How are these sensations tagged by thoughts?[

Every time, my thoughts comment about any situation I also notice sensations as well. Thought tag on each and every sensation like where it is In the body I am feeling and tagging them like worry feelings, feeling pressure, I get these sensations between the chest and stomach.

Thoughts also tag how uncomfortable these sensations are. And tag I (Monika) don’t like them. Then another thought comes and suggests what should be done to feel better.
Every time I get a late phone call from family members thought say ‘ why they are ringing late ‘ worry thoughts start to come and at the same time I feel sensations, and thoughts. It all happens so automatically and quickly. Thoughts and thoughts and sensations. Another thought comes and say ‘you are fine’.All is good. ‘Relax ‘

Please correct me if I am not right

Thanks
Monika

[Ronaldo]

Hi Monika,
No need to apologize, you told me and there was work to be done. All is well.

I tried to look again this morning. As soon as I opened my eyes thought came what things Monika is going to do today, planning the day, what activities to plan for our twin girls, think about what to eat for lunch and dinner. It was on and on about Monika’s day. I also noticed, thoughts also tagged every sensation I had.

Do you expect to have no thoughts about "me"? No emotions and sensations tagged "me"? It's not going to happen, the me-character will keep appearing in thoughts and feeling, the story of Monika goes on, is it a problem?
The desire to get rid of what is considered "unwanted", "painful" is the problem, not anything that is happening.
The question is.. can you guess? Who is trying to get rid of that "me"? Is there really an entity that doesn't like to be a self? That wants to be free of the thoughts and emotions?
Look hard, who/what doesn't want this?

Every time, my thoughts comment about any situation I also notice sensations as well. Thought tag on each and every sensation like where it is In the body I am feeling and tagging them like worry feelings, feeling pressure, I get these sensations between the chest and stomach.

Exactly, notice how sensations are tagged by thoughts to give them interpretation and meaning -
but is there a feeler of sensations? Are the thoughts and sensations happening to "me"?
You need to find out, what makes them believed to be coming from the Monika-self?

Thoughts also tag how uncomfortable these sensations are. And tag I (Monika) don’t like them. Then another thought comes and suggests what should be done to feel better.

The point of deep looking at emotions is not to focus on the thoughts and what they say, the point is to isolate the sensation and look at it like it's the most interesting and peculiar thing you ever saw, and isn't it? So much power it seems to have over your day, so give it your undivided attention. The thought comes up, ok, go back to the sensation until there is no you at all - only the sensation, it wants to be seen - look at it without judgment, without opinion, let it be there with its vibration, heaviness, tightness, let it pass through, it's worth doing.

Have a good weekend,
Ron

[Punjab1]

Good morning Ron

I love all the work you send me Ron. All the questions you asked me are so useful, I’m very lucky to have you as my guide so would like to express my gratitude to you.

Do you expect to have no thoughts about "me"? No emotions and sensations tagged "me"?

I would love that to happen and I have tried it a lot but I know now it is not possible. Thoughts are and will carry on the way they want to. I have no control on them.

The desire to get rid of what is considered "unwanted", "painful" is the problem

Thanks a lot for your explanation Ron. I tried that, the more I tried to get rid of all the thoughts, the more they multiply and more suffering I get.

The question is.. can you guess? Who is trying to get rid of that "me"? Is there really an entity that doesn't like to be a self? That wants to be free of the thoughts and emotions?
Look hard, who/what doesn't want this?

I couldn’t find a self who wants to be free from thoughts and sensations. I really thought there was one. There are just thoughts coming, judging, trying to get rid and comments about experience. It is all so quick and habitual, just feels so real.

but is there a feeler of sensations? Are the thoughts and sensations happening to "me"?
You need to find out, what makes them believed to be coming from the Monika-self?

You’re making me work hard with these questions Ron, am finding them really tricky. As they say here in the UK “you got me good and proper!” 😊.
I always thought I (Monika) is feeling everything and all the thoughts and sensations are happening to her.

When I looked, I noticed there is no Monika there. Thoughts and sensations are just happening. There is no one who is feeling it. When thoughts tag on sensations ‘they are uncomfortable and point to the part of body where it’s happening. Another thought tag ‘It is happening to Monika’.It’s all happening all the time and I never tried to look or investigate so everything feels so real to the character Monika.

The point of deep looking at emotions is not to focus on the thoughts and what they say, the point is to isolate the sensation and look at it like it's the most interesting and peculiar thing you ever saw, and isn't it?

Yes Ron, that’s what I am trying to do now. I haven’t been very successful so far but it is making sense. I know this is the only way out of suffering. And keep on looking who is suffering.

Can’t thank you enough for what you are doing for me
Regards
Monika