Seeking guidance

[Jadzia]

I have a small emotional reaction that I experience as sensations in my chest and head, and then I have thoughts about how something is picking the words, so that should be me, even if I can’t find it. Then also, I have thoughts about the word “choose”—like when you say that there’s no chooser, does that just mean that there’s no separate entity doing the choosing? Or does it mean that no choice is being made at all, and it’s more like something is just generating the names in response to the question, rather than making a free choice. This is uncomfortable to think about because even though I’m ok with the idea of having no free will in theory, there’s something more emotional in me that still believes that I have it and that wants to have it.

Sensations are labeled uncomfortable, yes. Cracking a belief system is dropping the comfort it gives.
There is no one choosing.

I don’t see how the separation between Honeybear and Friend or Honeybear and Jadzia merely seems to exist—I see actual separation.

This is ok. This is what we all learned to see, but there is no separation at all. You don't have to get it fully now but you will one day. :-)

Here a some things/situations for you to have a look:
Tonight: Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

In the morning: Can you see a self making you leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

Love,
Jadzia

[Honeybear]

This is ok. This is what we all learned to see, but there is no separation at all. You don't have to get it fully now but you will one day. :-)

I don’t get it even a little bit—not even conceptually. Somehow I totally missed something . . . Is there another way we can look at this?

Can you choose to fall asleep?

No. It felt like I made the choices that led up to being able to fall asleep, like getting in bed, turning out the lights, and such, (I know that I could examine this sense of choosing more closely, but I didn’t in this case) but it did not feel like I could choose to fall asleep. It seemed like it had to happen on its own—like there’s no way for me to decide, now I will fall asleep and then be asleep that instant.

Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

No.

Can you see a self making you leave the bed?

No. This morning, I lay there for a while, waiting to see how getting out of bed was going to happen, and then at some point, I just got up. I wasn’t aware of having any thought that I would do it right then. It just seemed to happen.

Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from?

The decision didn’t seem to happen in my conscious awareness. Before I got up, I had a number of thoughts related to it—mental images of things I needed to do today, mental images of me getting out of bed, and so on—and I also had short moments of mild physical tension that felt like desire related to wanting to get out of bed. But there wasn’t a clear moment where someone in here decided to get up. At some point, the body just did it.

What makes the body get up?

I don’t know exactly!

Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

No.

Thanks, Jadzia.

Love,
Honeybear

[Jadzia]

Is there another way we can look at this?

We are on it. :-)
At the same time allow to let it sink in - no separation at all, anywhere....
Observe what comes up.

It felt like I made the choices that led up to being able to fall asleep

It felt like, can you describe it? Is it a feeling or is it a thought?

So for these actions you realized they just happened. There might have been thoughts about it beforehand but then at some point action just happened.

During the day look at all choices happening. Look what can be found in DE and what not.
Is Honeybear the chooser or decider?
Or does action doesn't need a someone to decide what to do and when and how?
Check again and again.
There will be the story like "I just wanted to drink something that is why I did it", don't heed it, look if you can find a chooser or decider.

Love,
Jadzia

[Honeybear]

We are on it. :-)

Ok, great. :-)

At the same time allow to let it sink in - no separation at all, anywhere....
Observe what comes up.

It’s hard to let it sink in because I’m not sure what it means. So what comes up is confusion and a very slight anxiety, and then a little struggle to try to think about the various things it might mean.

It felt like, can you describe it? Is it a feeling or is it a thought?

A thought.

So for these actions you realized they just happened. There might have been thoughts about it beforehand but then at some point action just happened.

Yes.

During the day look at all choices happening. Look what can be found in DE and what not.

I’m a little confused about this, because if there were a chooser/decider, wouldn’t the only way to know about it be because of the content of thought? Like, it would use mental words and pictures to tell you what to do, right? How else would it manifest?

Is Honeybear the chooser or decider?

It seems not. Most of my actions during the day seem to be taken without any conscious thought at all. A smaller percentage are foreshadowed by thoughts—generally little flashes of images related to doing something. So I’ll be doing one thing and I’ll have a few little flashes of doing something else, and then at some point, I’ll go do the thing that was flashing through my mind. But the point of making the shift to go do the thing just seems to happen on its own. Every once in a while, I’ll have a verbal thought like “I’m going to do X” but sometimes these thoughts are happening when I’m already doing the thing.

I didn’t have any instances where I had to make a difficult decision, and I would be interested to see how that works, because it seems like weighing the two options and thinking about it a lot and then deciding would make it feel more like there’s a decider/chooser.

Or does action doesn't need a someone to decide what to do and when and how?

Action doesn’t seem to even require conscious decision making most of the time, much less a separate someone to do it.

Check again and again.

I’ll keep doing this, because even though I could see repeatedly that I was just doing things without actually deciding to do them, the knowledge that there’s no chooser isn’t that vivid to me. It’s such a strong habit to think that I’m deciding.

When I look, what I’m mainly seeing is that choosing/deciding for the most part isn’t happening consciously at all. But I’m not sure that this is the same as seeing that there’s no chooser/decider. Because even for situations where I do have conscious thoughts about what to do, there would still be no separate chooser, right?

In addition to watching my regular actions, I ran a little experiment: I put out some colored pencils and watched myself as I picked one, and repeated this a few times. I would have the thought, “Ok, now I’m going to choose a color,” and I’d look at the pencils, and one of them would have my attention more than the others and at some point I would pick it up. It seemed like even though I would have the conscious thought about how I was going to choose a color, this thought wasn’t actually related to the choice, in the sense that when I actually picked one, it just seemed to happen. So maybe that’s what you mean by no chooser—that even when the content of though is about choosing, it’s still somehow disconnected from the action?

Thanks, Jadzia!

Love,
Honeybear

[Jadzia]

At the same time allow to let it sink in - no separation at all, anywhere....
Observe what comes up.

It’s hard to let it sink in because I’m not sure what it means. So what comes up is confusion and a very slight anxiety, and then a little struggle to try to think about the various things it might mean.

Yes, good you had a look. Confusion and slight anxiety. This isn't exactly the knowing you grew up with, right? It should shake you a bit imagining that a lot you are sure off isn't like you learned or believe.

Most of my actions during the day seem to be taken without any conscious thought at all.

Alright, so there are unconscious thoughts? Unconscious dealings somehow that do the chosing, acting?
What are unconscious thoughts in DE?

Love your experiment! Well done!

It seemed like even though I would have the conscious thought about how I was going to choose a color, this thought wasn’t actually related to the choice, in the sense that when I actually picked one, it just seemed to happen. So maybe that’s what you mean by no chooser—that even when the content of though is about choosing, it’s still somehow disconnected from the action

Do any thoughts really influence what is chosen?
Is there any connection between thought and action?
Look again.
Sit down again with the pencils.
Think: "Pick the red one." Try with other colours too.
Does it always happen?
For thought to be the instigator of action or the matter with which choice happens the order/offer should always run through. But does it happen?

You are on the right track. Allow yourself to crack the beliefs you have, check each and everyone. Don't simply believe.

Love,
Jadzia

[Honeybear]

Yes, good you had a look. Confusion and slight anxiety. This isn't exactly the knowing you grew up with, right? It should shake you a bit imagining that a lot you are sure off isn't like you learned or believe.

Yes.

Alright, so there are unconscious thoughts?

Eeek. I know that I have no actual knowledge or experience of unconscious thoughts or mental processes. It’s just my way of recognizing that I have a brain and that it must be doing something in there to make me take these actions. It feels too weird to say that the actions are just happening—it sounds mystical or something.

Unconscious dealings somehow that do the chosing, acting?

Yes! Insert some science here—neurons, electrical impulses! I don’t actually know anything about the science, but some kind of scientific/pseudoscientific explanation for how my actions are happening feels right and comfortable to me, even if my mind is really just alluding to it in the vaguest of ways. Saying that actions are happening due to unconscious processes is my way of allying myself with a particular view of the mind. But I don’t have to keep doing that here. I can recognize that in my own experience, there’s nothing making the actions happen.

What are unconscious thoughts in DE?

Nothing. They don’t exist in direct experience.

Love your experiment! Well done!

Thanks!

Do any thoughts really influence what is chosen?

It’s hard for me to tell. It’s clear that they don’t cause the choice, but I’m not sure if there’s any lesser influence or not. For example, once when I was looking at the colored pencils, after I had the thought that I was going to choose one, I looked at them all for a while, and my attention became focused on the blue one, and then I had the thought, “I’m going to choose the blue one,” and then I picked it up. So in that case, the process went 1) general verbal thought about choosing, 2) focusing on the blue one with my attention, 3) verbal thought that I was going to choose the blue one, and 4) picking the blue one up. The first thought about choosing seemed like purely narration, since I’d already put the pencils out with the intention to choose one, but I couldn’t tell if the second thought about the blue pencil was wholly extraneous or if it was kind of a reinforcer that made me more likely to stick with the choice that I’d already seemed to have made with my attention. So while the thought about choosing the blue pencil didn’t itself cause me to choose the blue pencil, it may have still had some kind of influence—I’m just not sure. Regardless, there’s definitely some kind of a gap between the thoughts and the action, and not a direct link.

Is there any connection between thought and action?

It seems more like they’re parallel processes that aren’t directly connected. But I can’t tell if the thoughts have some kind of influence on the actions.

Look again.
Sit down again with the pencils.
Think: "Pick the red one." Try with other colours too.
Does it always happen?

What mostly happened is that I’d look at the pencils, and my attention would fall on one, and then I’d say that I was going to pick that one. So the thought of picking it followed what already seemed like a decision about which one to pick.

But then I could also say that I was going to pick a particular one and then pick a different one instead.

What was a little confusing was that sometimes, I’d be planning to have a verbal thought that I was going to pick one and planning to purposely not pick it. So I’d have the thought “I’m going to pick the red one,” but I would have already focused my attention on the purple one and I knew I was going to choose it, rather than the red one. I didn’t have any thoughts formed in words about the purple one, but it was like I had already decided. So I wasn’t clear if that second kind of a thought—sort of a nonverbal, situational knowing or decision—was the “real” thought that was causing me to pick the purple one. But sometimes I wouldn’t have such a clear nonverbal decision and would just pick one.

For thought to be the instigator of action or the matter with which choice happens the order/offer should always run through. But does it happen?

It doesn’t always happen.

You are on the right track. Allow yourself to crack the beliefs you have, check each and everyone. Don't simply believe.

I’ll try!

Thanks, Jadzia.

Love,
Honeybear

[Jadzia]

Eeek. I know that I have no actual knowledge or experience of unconscious thoughts or mental processes. It’s just my way of recognizing that I have a brain and that it must be doing something in there to make me take these actions. It feels too weird to say that the actions are just happening—it sounds mystical or something.

Mystical? Why would the truth be mystical????? ;-)
Erm, brain in DE?

But I don’t have to keep doing that here. I can recognize that in my own experience, there’s nothing making the actions happen.

Let go of clinging to what you can't know!!!!!!! It is time for it now.... you came here for a reason and holding onto something with the last bit of your fingertips just not to fall, ah nahhhh..... :-) Allow yourself to fall into the rabbit hole of non duality - it is fun in there, really. :-D

Same here:

It seems more like they’re parallel processes that aren’t directly connected. But I can’t tell if the thoughts have some kind of influence on the actions.

Are they indirectly connected?
You don't seem to find a connection.... what about another thought being the connection by saying so?
Look at what thoughts offer and at what you can find in DE.

But then I could also say that I was going to pick a particular one and then pick a different one instead.

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if thoughts instigate action that it would always be done what they say?

And yes the decision is happening earlier than the thought "I take this".

https://vimeo.com/90101368
Here is something to watch for relaxation after struggling.

Love,
Jadzia

[Honeybear]

Mystical? Why would the truth be mystical????? ;-)

Either that or naive. At any rate, I’m trying to tell myself that it’s totally safe—and not only that, but totally beneficial—to let go of my usual perspectives and ways of seeing, and also totally ok to say things that sound weird.

Erm, brain in DE?

No. There’s no brain in my direct experience.

Let go of clinging to what you can't know!!!!!!! It is time for it now.... you came here for a reason and holding onto something with the last bit of your fingertips just not to fall, ah nahhhh..... :-) Allow yourself to fall into the rabbit hole of non duality - it is fun in there, really. :-D

Ok! Thanks for this.

Are they indirectly connected?

No. I can’t find a causal connection. They can be related insofar as sometimes the content of thoughts is about the action, either before, while, or after it takes place (although more often than not I’m thinking about something totally different from what I’m doing), but there isn’t a causal connection.

I feel like this is sinking in a little more and it’s strange. It’s weird to see thoughts and actions as separate systems.

You don't seem to find a connection.... what about another thought being the connection by saying so?

Yes, it seems like it’s just other thoughts that are trying to connect the thought with the action.

Wouldn't it stand to reason that if thoughts instigate action that it would always be done what they say?

Yes.

Here is something to watch for relaxation after struggling.

Brains and unconscious mental processes! So reassuring. Why are you giving me such a cushy place to land when I’m supposed to be falling? :-)

Thanks, Jadzia!

Love,
Honeybear

[Jadzia]

They can be related insofar as sometimes the content of thoughts is about the action, either before, while, or after it takes place (although more often than not I’m thinking about something totally different from what I’m doing), but there isn’t a causal connection.

Isn't the only connection another thought?

Brains and unconscious mental processes! So reassuring. Why are you giving me such a cushy place to land when I’m supposed to be falling? :-)

There are several ways of seeing it, brains and mental processes - or simply happening .... lol

Lets look at sensations, the physical variation.
Sit quietly for a while and just observe sensations in the body coming and going.
Thoughts will tell of "my body, my feeling" and will label them. Allow that to happen but don't give it overly much attention.
For a while just check what is felt, what just turned up and what just disappeared.
Tell me how this works for you.

Love,
Jadzia

[Honeybear]

Isn't the only connection another thought?

Yes.

Lets look at sensations, the physical variation.
Sit quietly for a while and just observe sensations in the body coming and going.
Thoughts will tell of "my body, my feeling" and will label them. Allow that to happen but don't give it overly much attention.
For a while just check what is felt, what just turned up and what just disappeared.
Tell me how this works for you.

What I felt was the sensations of pulsing, fizzing, pressure, warmth, and coldness. These fluctuated, and some disappeared. My attention would sometimes move around from sensation to sensation, and sometimes take in the whole field of sensation. I generally had a subtle mental image of my body that mapped the sensations to particular locations. Sometimes my attention would wander and I’d think of other things.

Thanks, Jadzia.

Love,
Honeybear

[Jadzia]

Good. :-)

Do this again and have the questions in mind and look carefully.

What I felt was the sensations of pulsing, fizzing, pressure, warmth, and coldness.

Do you see that pulsing, fizzing and so on are labels?
Are the labels more than an attempt to describe the sensations?
Are the labels connected to the sensations?
Do the sensations know about the labels?

With closed eyes. Is there a body? Can you be really sure?
Are all sensations in what is called 'inside' the body? Can you be really sure of it?

Is there someone making the sensations or do they just happen?

You might find you like to repeat it more often to find the answers.

Love,
Jadzia

[Honeybear]

Do you see that pulsing, fizzing and so on are labels?

Yes.

Are the labels more than an attempt to describe the sensations?

No.

Are the labels connected to the sensations?

No.

Do the sensations know about the labels?

No.

With closed eyes. Is there a body?

Not in direct experience. There are just sensations.

Can you be really sure?

In direct experience, I can’t be sure that there’s a body with my eyes closed. It’s a subtle mental image that tells me about where the sensations are happening, along with the concept that the sensations could only be happening if there’s a body. Both of these are thoughts.

Are all sensations in what is called 'inside' the body?

Without the mental image, there’s not an inside and an outside.

Can you be really sure of it?

In direct experience, with my eyes closed, I can’t be sure that sensations are inside the body, because the boundaries of the body are drawn by a mental image, which is a thought, and the idea that I can only feel sensations that are inside (or on the surface of) my body is also a thought.

Is there someone making the sensations or do they just happen?

They just happen.

Thanks, Jadzia.

Love,
Honeybear

[Jadzia]

Beautiful.

Now the next step and the last one for this year :-)
Sit again, close the eyes and go directly to DE.
Again notice that with eyes closed you can't really be sure that there is a body.
Notice again that with eyes closed you can't really tell if there is an inside or outside of the body. Thoughts might tell about an outline a form, but in DE you can't find one.
Now relax and enjoy the feeling of free floating sensations, just do it for a little while. When thoughts are engaged just desentangle and go back to enjoying the openness. Enjoy all the sensations in their variety, there might be thoughts like "This is the air on the skin", or "This feeling was stomach" or whatever - just notice them and let go again.

Is there anything in the freely floating sensations that speaks about body?
Is there anything that says that all these sensations are Honeybears body other than a labeling thought?
Happily breathe in and out and gently and lovingly ponder these questions.

Have fun getting into the new year!

Love,
Jadzia

[Honeybear]

Sit again, close the eyes and go directly to DE.
Again notice that with eyes closed you can't really be sure that there is a body.
Notice again that with eyes closed you can't really tell if there is an inside or outside of the body. Thoughts might tell about an outline a form, but in DE you can't find one.
Now relax and enjoy the feeling of free floating sensations, just do it for a little while. When thoughts are engaged just desentangle and go back to enjoying the openness. Enjoy all the sensations in their variety,

This was so nice to do. Thank you.

Is there anything in the freely floating sensations that speaks about body?

No.

Is there anything that says that all these sensations are Honeybears body other than a labeling thought?

No. Contemplating this caused a little feeling of elation.

Have fun getting into the new year!

Thanks! I hope the new year brings you all good things, Jadzia.

Love,
Honeybear

[Jadzia]

This was so nice to do. Thank you.

Nice little breaks are needed sometimes. :-)

It seems as if a lot of different sensations are called body and no name tag found, too.

Lets have a look at what thoughts do again: They label everything that happens and add abstract labels which connects different experiences.
Concerning the body if we strictly keep to direct experience we could say:
Label 'body' is known as DE of thought
Image/colour 'body is known as DE of colour
Sensation labelled 'body' is known as DE of sensation
Smell labelled 'body' is known as DE of smell
Taste labelled 'body' is known as DE of taste
Sound labelled 'body' is known as DE of sound.
A bunch of different experiences are called body and it is personalised as my body.

Have a look at what believed is self again.
Self / I is believed to be:
the thinker - which you already found isn't so
the chooser/decider - which you already have serious doubts about
the body - you didn't find a name tag
the observer
the experiencer: seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling
All this is put together under one explaining label self.

Have a look if you find an observer - the one who observes life.
It might help to start from the little excercise you liked. It helps to relax and before you look for an observer you will already be achored in DE.

Love,
Jadzia