Hey.

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Thu Apr 26, 2012 1:43 am

Hey Tim, why the baby avatar ?
I love this av, this is my favorite pic ever.
A story here is that i will 'know' 'you' better if i see your face.
My face:
Image
How do we communicate without the volume of detail (drivel ?) but not fall back into the use of previous language (and constantly think "they (not there selves) know that i don't mean I), language that seduces us to re-take as reality the content of the words ?
I dunno, do you really see that as being a problem? I just kinda talk normal; nobody seems to have a problem with it.
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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vinceschubert
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Re: Hey.

Postby vinceschubert » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:15 am

Thank you Tim, totally blew my expectations. Found myself just sitting and smiling back at you with a warm glow (satisfaction) feeling in my stomach.
Tim, how long has it been since your energy shift while sitting vigil ?
liberation starts with recognising some illusions

http://www.1ness.info

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:19 am

'bout three years.
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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Anki
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Re: Hey.

Postby Anki » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:00 am

Well. I could not figure out why this feeling of compulsion for communication with a former troll.

Here's why:
An experience is a side-effect of the system moving deeper into awareness; awakening is a process of transformation, and when there's a shift in that direction it's often accompanied by a cool experience.
First I sobbed, then laughed so hard and long I had to take off my glasses and move away the keyboard. Oh, it's just so fucking obvious and was so NOT SEEN!!

Now it is MY gratitude that is overflowing.
MUCH LOVE,
Lisa
Unleash yourself. Look, and look again. No self to unleash.

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:58 am

:) Glad you found that helpful.
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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Ilona
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Re: Hey.

Postby Ilona » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:44 am

Hey Tim, I see you are clear and fun to talk to.
Here are our signature question, that we ask everyone at the end of process. Can you answer them in full, would be nice for everyone to read.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this?
4) How would you describe it to a curious seeker who may have never heard about.  
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see? 

Thanks!
See for yourself.
8-week guided self-inquiry experience → https://ilonaciunaite.com/8-week-program/

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:03 am

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? 
I haven't been able to find one outside of imagination.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
Fuck. Okay, so I guess the initial mistake comes in at some point in early childhood when we start believing our thoughts due to fear and desire. We desire some things and want to avoid others, and we realize that we can use this powerful tool thought to help us acquire what we want and avoid what we don't. In order to make use of that though our schema needs a reference point; food doesn't need to go into just any mouth, it needs to go into THIS mouth. Mommy doesn't need to go just anywhere, she needs to come over here to ME. The thought networks get more and more complex, and at a certain point they BECOME our world. We get sucked in; we believe the thought stories. We believe that reference point, the central character in all thought-stories in our thought-world, is a real thing that is separate from the rest of the world.

How would a person without thought know separation? A baby lying in its crib looking up at a mobile and listening to its mother singing doesn't know the story of "me" and "crib" and "mobile" and "mom" and "singing"; without labeling and dividing mind it's all just one big THING, like how listening to a symphony on the radio would sound like just one interesting sound before you learned to differentiate and label the instruments. But then fuckin' thought comes in, then belief, and you've got a problem.
3) How does it feel to see this?
A fuck of a lot better than it did before I saw it. I suffered from depression for years, now I'm just happy.
4) How would you describe it to a curious seeker who may have never heard about.
Depends on the seeker, where I sense they're coming from and what they ask me. The basic gist of it would be that it isn't happening the way we think it's happening; that life as it is and life as the mind says it is could not possibly be more different, that it is possible to come to perceive the world without the screen of thought, and that doing so is the end of suffering. That's probably how I'd describe it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you see?
If I had to pick one, it would probably be John Wheeler's pointing to the Self as That which precedes awareness. When that finally sunk in it was huge. But as I said it wasn't the beginning or the end.
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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Ingen
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Re: Hey.

Postby Ingen » Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:56 pm

Hi Tim,

I don't understand "the Self as That which precedes awareness." Would you explain what that means? And how it goes together with seeing that self is an illusion?

Thank you!

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:27 pm

Hi Tim,

I don't understand "the Self as That which precedes awareness." Would you explain what that means? And how it goes together with seeing that self is an illusion?

Thank you!
I'm having this conversation on one of the LU Facebook groups, so I'ma just C&P what I said there:
I sometimes use 'self' with a little 's' to label that fictional identity we imagine exists separate from life. I use 'Self' with a big 'S' as another word for the Absolute/true nature/God/totality/whatever the fuck else you wanna call it. The Self is what remains when the self is clearly seen through.
Specifically, I use the term Self to point to That from which, in which, and as which all arises. Not consciousness, because the Self exists even in deep sleep. What I am is prior even to consciousness. I use that label for that specific purpose, but there is nothing that is separate from the Self. This isn't shit that I really think about anymore, for the same reason I don't spend a lot of time thinking about my eyeballs, but it's useful as a pointer.
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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Ingen
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Re: Hey.

Postby Ingen » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:01 pm

I didn't follow the FB discussion, sorry if there are overlaps. To call "all that is" = "Self" is a unnecessary confusion IMO.
What I am is prior even to consciousness.
I'm curious: How do you know something about "prior to consciousness?"
I use 'Self' with a big 'S' as another word for the Absolute/true nature/God/totality/whatever the fuck else you wanna call it. The Self is what remains when the self is clearly seen through.
Although both the following sentences are about "nondual", there is a subtle difference between:
I am everything.
and:
Everything is, I am not.

The first may feel great, because it blows up the little self to a big Self.
The latter leaves "all that is" untainted and truly impersonal.

Can you see the difference? Is it unimportant to you? Or maybe I am misunderstanding something?

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:18 am

I didn't follow the FB discussion, sorry if there are overlaps. To call "all that is" = "Self" is a unnecessary confusion IMO.
*DISCLAIMER*
The only reason the whole "Self" thing came up at all was because I mentioned offhand a pointing style that brought things home for me at one time. It did NOT give me a conceptual model of how reality works; it just woke me up. When I explain it I am not defending a currently-held "how reality works" narrative, I'm just explaining my understanding of these basic nondual principles because I'm being asked about them. I try to avoid holding to any "how reality works" at all; this stuff isn't anything I normally think or talk about. So, with that hopefully cleared up, I go on:
I'm curious: How do you know something about "prior to consciousness?"
That's the point. If I can know it, if I'm perceiving it, then it isn't the primal identity, like how since I can see my computer screen, my nose, and the frames of my glasses I know these cannot be correctly labeled "eyeball". The subject to which all things appear is aware of consciousness and remains even in deep sleep, so what I am must be further back than that.
Although both the following sentences are about "nondual", there is a subtle difference between:
I am everything.
and:
Everything is, I am not.

The first may feel great, because it blows up the little self to a big Self.
The latter leaves "all that is" untainted and truly impersonal.

Can you see the difference? Is it unimportant to you? Or maybe I am misunderstanding something?
So as I was saying on the Facebook thread, it is undeniable that appearances appear. I've yet to meet anyone who can counter this assertion. Appearances appear. But what do they appear TO? Well in LU's model, the answer seems to be "nothing, they don't appear to anything, they just appear". In Advaita, instead of "nothing" or "no-thing", they say often say "the Self". But they're saying the same fucking thing. Just different words. What I am (That in which, from which, and AS WHICH all appears) is not a thing, not an entity. Call it whatever you want; I personally do not care.
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:30 am

*meant to say "That to which, in which, from which, and AS WHICH all appears"
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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Anki
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Re: Hey.

Postby Anki » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:55 am

Hi again trolly you .... I am loving all this discussing of Self and self, and Absolute ....

I get this:
That's the point. If I can know it, if I'm perceiving it, then it isn't the primal identity....

and appreciate very much having it said so succinctly. I have confusion with this next part, Tim.
The subject to which all things appear is aware of consciousness and remains even in deep sleep, so what I am must be further back than that.
If 'The subject' here is the Self (I've no problem with that word or what you mean by it) then what in the heck is 'further back'?

Thanks for continuing on with all of us!

Big hug.
Lisa
Unleash yourself. Look, and look again. No self to unleash.

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Forkfoot O'Flannigan
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Re: Hey.

Postby Forkfoot O'Flannigan » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:24 am

Talking about this stuff in this way has been interesting for me, too; I wasn't sure I still can.

"Further back" like how my eyeballs are literally further back than my eyeglasses. How do I know that my eyeglasses aren't what's seeing? Because I can see them. We can move "further back" than my eyeballs in a less-literal sense, because I am aware of my eyeballs as a sensation in my body and I can touch them and have thoughts about them. Obviously I'm "further back" than my body and my thoughts, because I'm conscious of those too. So am I consciousness itself? Well, I'm aware of being conscious, and even in deep sleep, I am. And of course before "I am aware", we have "I am". This for me is not an assumption, nor is it a concept, because I experience an undeniable sense of "am-ness". This "I am-ness" is what Nisargadatta talked about at length, and it's what John showed me how to tune into. At his suggestion I latched onto that sensation with all my might and attention and just clung to it like a pit bull for some time. After a while (weeks, months, I dunno, my memory of that time is shit) of that, I remembered something else John said which knocked it all home: I am even "further back" than that sense of "am-ness", because even that, of course, I am aware of. That's as far back as I can go. That's what I am. That's the primal identity. And good luck finding anything that's separate from THAT.
"When the chaos becomes safety to you, then you know you're seeing God clearly."
~Caroline Myss

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Anki
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Re: Hey.

Postby Anki » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:00 pm

Tim. Thank you.
Love.
Unleash yourself. Look, and look again. No self to unleash.


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