Confused about self inquiry

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
These are very good signs - you're on the right track.

I completely understand what you describe as an "identity crisis" (good one!), but there is nothing to be concerned about.
Why? Simple, your belief in Dana as a self who thinks and makes decisions may drop, but nothing in reality will change - it has always been that way whether it is seen or not (it's how it is right now!), yet everything works perfectly fine. You'll continue to laugh and cry, experience thoughts and emotions and care for your loved ones, you will not become a vegetable.

We're not in a race to figure it out, I think you should take a few days and just observe the thoughts and the actions, try to relax into and not grab what is observed (if that makes sense). We'll get back on track next week if that works for you.

warm regards
Ron

[Danadd]

Sounds good! :-)
Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
How are you doing? Hope you're exploring your new powers of observation :) tasting and smelling food without (or between) thought comments can be so enjoyable, looking at any object and letting go of the tags that come up.. wonderful.

Don't answer from memory or thinking, but try each until you see clearly:

Is there anything you need to do in order to see?
Anything you need to do to hear? sense, smell?
Anything you need to do to have a thought?

Are you moving the body, or the body just moves?

~Ron

[Danadd]

Hi Ron!
Hope you’re well.
I have so many thoughts all the time. So it’s hard to experience something without thoughts. But it does happen on occasion for short moments and yes it’s very refreshing! While I put salt on my avocado today I thought that it’s kind of like eating an avocado without salt: getting the real flavor of it.

Is there anything you need to do in order to see?

No. Even when I close my eyes I see. It just happens. The only time I don’t is when I’m unaware, when I fall asleep.

Anything you need to do to hear? sense, smell?

Also no. They’re just always part of my experience. I don’t choose them. There isn’t an entity that turns them on and off.

Anything you need to do to have a thought?

This is a harder one.
Thoughts just come up, without anyone or anything deciding it.
They are uncontrollable.
The thing that confuses me is the part with the controlling of attention. It goes like this:
A thought pops up “I’m gonna think about cats”.
And then the next thought, sometimes, will be cats. Other thoughts will pop up but if I decided I’m gonna think about cats then immediately after the unrelated thought pops up, another one pops up which takes my attention back to cat thoughts.
This sort of controlling of attention, more like directing of attention, seems like I am doing it, seems like I have control, even if it partly works. It feels like there’s an entity. It’s hard to see there isn’t.

Are you moving the body, or the body just moves?

Definitely the body just moves. I catch so many times when I’m doing something, and it even continues happening, and I realize I’m not the one doing it.
But then there’s, like with thoughts, times when I think “I’m gonna move my foot”. And then the foot moves. Not always, and sometimes as an experiment i think thought and don’t move my foot for a while, until a few moments later it moves, as if I’d decided to move it, but also not. I don’t know.
But it does seem like a directing of movement. Like, the foot wouldn’t have moved if I hadn’t thought to move it.
I know we said it’s not necessary for now to see that action doesn’t happen as a result of thought, and it’s enough to assume that it does, and just see that I don’t control my thoughts.
If you still think that it’s better we leave it for now, I trust you. But this is what my confusions are right now about this.

Dana :-)

[Ronaldo]

Hey Dana!

I'm glad to hear your'e trying out new ways to taste food :)

Even when I close my eyes I see. It just happens. The only time I don’t is when I’m unaware, when I fall asleep.

Right, we can't really go there with direct experience :)

R: Anything you need to do to have a thought?

This is a harder one.
Thoughts just come up, without anyone or anything deciding it.
They are uncontrollable.

Right, you've seen this over and over.

The thing that confuses me is the part with the controlling of attention. It goes like this:
A thought pops up “I’m gonna think about cats”.
And then the next thought, sometimes, will be cats. Other thoughts will pop up but if I decided I’m gonna think about cats then immediately after the unrelated thought pops up, another one pops up which takes my attention back to cat thoughts.
This sort of controlling of attention, more like directing of attention, seems like I am doing it, seems like I have control, even if it partly works. It feels like there’s an entity. It’s hard to see there isn’t.

These questions are on the intellectual level - it's not about looking at all, you're going into the content of thoughts and trying to figure out if you control their content. But since you seem hung on this, I will entertain ;-)

So you are observing patterns of thoughts, one thought leading to another, revolving around a subject, then at some point going off at a tangent, and maybe coming back, maybe not, round and round - this seems to be the nature of thoughts, isn't it? They tell stories, especially negative ones, how does that indicate that you are in control? Say someone said something insulting to you, you might have thoughts about this for 2 days, do you even want them? Did you stop them when they finally go? Zero, nada, zilch.

So even on that level, do you create the initial thought?
The next thought seems to sometimes be predictable (said another thought), is this your control, or just a pattern that was picked up? Did you choose to create or follow such a pattern?

Do you control when thoughts stop?
Don't think about a black cat for the next 10 minutes!
Successful?

In this investigation we deconstruct experience to it's most basic elements, these are the senses and thought, but we don't go into the content of thoughts and what cannot be seen now, because (again) thought content is not an actual experience. Try to taste yesterday's salt-less avocado, does a thought of bright light blind you? Most thoughts aren't even about actual experience, they are about other thoughts - they do not exist. If you want to see through this illusion you have to trust this process (not believe anything) but going into the thought content and trying to makes sense out of what they say is a road to nowhere, only circles and circles leading back to the beginning, there are no answers there.

R: Are you moving the body, or the body just moves?

Definitely the body just moves. I catch so many times when I’m doing something, and it even continues happening, and I realize I’m not the one doing it.
But then there’s, like with thoughts, times when I think “I’m gonna move my foot”. And then the foot moves. Not always, and sometimes as an experiment i think thought and don’t move my foot for a while, until a few moments later it moves, as if I’d decided to move it, but also not. I don’t know.
But it does seem like a directing of movement. Like, the foot wouldn’t have moved if I hadn’t thought to move it.
I know we said it’s not necessary for now to see that action doesn’t happen as a result of thought, and it’s enough to assume that it does, and just see that I don’t control my thoughts.
If you still think that it’s better we leave it for now, I trust you. But this is what my confusions are right now about this.

So your conclusion is that it mostly moves without your guidance, but sometimes you take control and direct the movement.
- How did you decide to take control? Was that a choice you made, or is it more correct to say that a thought appeared "I will move my foot"?
As long as you can't know your next thought, and cannot have an actual process of thinking - this is all just talk.
This is just going with your assumption, I'm showing you that even if thought controls action, you are not the creator of thoughts.

It's essential to see clearly if Dana is the thinker of thoughts and doer of things.
Right now you seem to see clearly that the body moves, and that you cannot know or control thoughts, note that you've observed these not by thinking! So this all happens all the time, yet somehow, in some magic way you take control of thoughts and actions..... you have intention.... (thought). How does that work?
Is it possible that when control is assumed - that is just a thought?


~Ron

[Danadd]

Hey Ron :-)

So you’re saying that since thought content isn’t real, it’s not relevant to looking? Because were looking at what makes up our experience and so at the nature of thoughts, not the content of them?

I’m finding it hard to see right now that Dana is not the creator of thoughts and doer of actions. It’s like it’s in phases, sometimes it’s clearer and sometimes it’s less clear. I sit and decide I will look now but then I get into the thought content and forget to observe until I remember a minute later. And then again.
And in general, when there’s things I think I need to do, people that I’m with that I’m not 100% comfortable with, I can’t really relax and watch what happens. When there’s always things going on.
Is this familiar to you? Do you have an idea of how what I can do with this? Maybe a specific question like the ones you color in blue? 😅 they usually help by guiding me.

Thanks,
Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana :)

It's true that a busy lifestyle will make looking more difficult, and even more so, being around people for most of the day is challenging, especially at the initial stage. Grab every moment of "presence". There are far worse situation to be trying to wake up in, imagine having a full time job and raising 2 kids for example.

So you’re saying that since thought content isn’t real, it’s not relevant to looking? Because were looking at what makes up our experience and so at the nature of thoughts, not the content of them?

Right, thought content is an imagined experience, it's inherently not real. People are just so used to taking them for the real thing, that reality is hardly seen anymore as is, there is a thick layer of interpretation and beliefs covering the simplicity of what's there, most of the time reality is obscured by the thought content.

I invite you to do the experiments again, even if it's clear - simply pause, try your favorite drink or food and see how the real taste, smell sensation or sight is full of life, and how the imagined version is faded, incomplete, lacking.
There are thought content that are imagined sense perception (which we covered), these are the simplest ones aren't they?
Then there are thought about concepts, these are also not real... "school", "good", "intention", these seem like real things because there isn't even something real to compare them to, right?

Thoughts are therefore not real experience, and we are strictly looking at actual experience which does include the arising of thoughts, but not their story. I will remind you that the illusion of the self occurs in thoughts, so there is simply no way to see it using thoughts, dreams inside dreams about dreams.

I gave you quite a few examples and experiments you can run to test your ability to control thoughts, choice and action. The problem is that you are fooled by the thoughts, you believe their story. Try replacing every thought with "blahhhhhhhhblahhh" - what's there without that blah? Keep looking at intention and keep looking at thought and action asking "did I create that?". Are the thoughts narrating or running life?


Let's play a game and look again at thoughts and choice. Read and do each step before you continue.

Pick a country
Got one?

I don't like that one, pick another please.
Got it?

Let's look at what just happened here:
1. a thought came out of the blue and said "USA/America" (or whatever).
Was that a choice you made? Or did it just land? We are not asking "why this one?", it doesn't matter at this point.
Did you have free choice to select any country? Were all countries available to you to choose from? Not really, only what is known is available, so maybe you don't know a country named San Marino, that's a given.

2. I asked you to change your selection, so there might have been what seemed like a selection process.
Say Italy and Germany and Spain came up, but for some reason Finland didn't.
was that limited group of countries actively selected by you?
did you decide not to include Finland?

3. a new choice was made - say Italy, and now a thought explains - "yea, I love Italian food", or, "I visited there last summer - that's why".

Was a real choice ever made?
Were you creating any thoughts out of nothing?
Did you observe a thinking process, or just thoughts popping?

~Ron

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
It has been a while, are you still with me on this inquiry?
I know there's some frustration involved, it's a very common side effect of this inquiry, you feel like you don't get it, you can't see what is being pointed to. But you are closer than you think, you have what it takes to look, only the pull of thoughts take over and they are believed.
We are still "stuck" finding out for sure whether Dana is the creator of thoughts and doer of things. Are you still looking into these? I will remind you again, that to see this clearly you only consider direct experience, you look and thoughts explanations are discarded, they are never the real thing.

Let me know if you're keen on this - it's you who has to do the work, many times a day, even if it's a few seconds a time.
I'm here if it's a yes, but it's perfectly fine if you'd rather drop it.
~Ron

[Danadd]

Hi Ron!
Thanks for checking in and the words of encouragement, they help.
It’s been on my mind that I haven’t replied in a while.
It’s definitely a yes. This is the most important thing to me. I feel that I’m now much closer than I was, and there are times when I glimpse the truth, and it seems so obvious. It’s getting clearer for sure. So it’s the most important thing because it really does feel like being asleep as long as I’m not seeing the truth.
And yet, even though it’s very important, other things that are going on seem and feel more urgent and my mind is busy and I forget to look. And combined with that, the instruction now, to see if Dana is the doer of actions and thinker of thoughts, is a bit less precise and unclear than the ones in the past. So those two things combined are why it’s been harder for me to keep with the inquiry in the last few days. I have been doing it, but not enough in a way that I can respond back with new realizations/ questions.
Today I planned on rereading some old posts and trying the experiments again.
And throughout the day, look if Dana is the creator/chooser
I think I get what I need to do. I just need a bit more time.
I wanted to ask you if it’s okay that I’m responding after a while sometimes. When I don’t reply straight away it’s always on my mind that I’m holding you back maybe from continuing with other inquiries, I don’t know.
Let me know what you think about these two (sort of) problems.
Have a good day :-)
Thanks again,
Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
I love your honesty and that you grasp the value of this work that you're doing. It's a really good idea to read through our dialogue again, do the exercise again with the realizations you have. As long as you're keen on this, I'm behind it 100% no worries.

If you're alone try this - yesterday after my shower I was really watching what happens (not thinking, looking), how dressing up takes place, how I turned to place the towel back, how the arms and legs move, doing complex tasks, thought always offer a narrative, but so clear that they are not required for any action, action takes place, intension arises as knowing and the thought merely explains it.
This is my experience, it's not something to agree to, look at your experience, look if Dana is running the show, or the show takes place, Dana is just what most thoughts are about.

Warmly
Ron

[Danadd]

Okay, good to hear.
I tried the exercise. It does seem that my body just moves and does things without my thoughts commanding it. Even speaking sometimes! It seems like words are just coming out of my mouth. Even right now. And other times words are coming out after I had a thought about what to say.
When doing your exercise I tried replacing any thoughts with just a song in my head to show me that even when I don’t have thoughts about the action, my body just acts.
I think what’s confusing is the action that comes after a thought about the action. But then again... when I really look I can’t really find someone who decided to have the thought to act. Just the thought coming up. Right now I’m writing this from memory and not from actual looking, which I know isn’t the best. But I need to look some more to really see this.
Also sometimes it feels that when I’m watching thoughts, I have a thought and then a second later I remember that thought and realize that it just came up. This is another thought and not actual looking, right? What happened here? Was I looking while it happened and later just had a thought explaining it?
Regards,
~Dana

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,

It does seem that my body just moves and does things without my thoughts commanding it. Even speaking sometimes! It seems like words are just coming out of my mouth. Even right now. And other times words are coming out after I had a thought about what to say.

Great looking, talking happens, typing happens, sometimes a pause happens, then words flow out and turn into something on the screen. Is there an entity in control?

When doing your exercise I tried replacing any thoughts with just a song in my head to show me that even when I don’t have thoughts about the action, my body just acts.

Yes... perfectly mysterious.
Are the thoughts yours, or about you?
What makes this body "my body"?

sometimes it feels that when I’m watching thoughts, I have a thought and then a second later I remember that thought and realize that it just came up. This is another thought and not actual looking, right? What happened here? Was I looking while it happened and later just had a thought explaining it?

I'm not sure what you're describing :) it does sound like thoughts about thoughts.. simplify this, no need to go into a "thinking process". You observe and a thought will translate that experience into words, images, symbols, yes the thought always comes after the experience! When the experience is experienced - it's obvious, the realization is enough.

~Ron :)

[Danadd]

Hi Ron,
I feel sort of stuck.
I was wondering if it would be possible to have a live inquiry, on the phone or something like that.
It’s totally understandable if not. Let me know what you think.
Dana :-)

[Ronaldo]

Hi Dana,
Sure, why not, we may as well go full media - I'll send you an email, and we can setup a zoom/whatsapp or FaceTime call - whatever works best for you.

I'll see ya :)
Ron

[Danadd]

Great!