Getting liberated in Brazil

[deniselias]

Hey Kalle!

I'm not completely sure what you mean,

It's a little bit crazy, but it's as if "I" would watch the "I" disappear!! Almost as if I had two "I's" - one that would disappear and other that would watch the first disappear!!
I believe all this process is exactly trying to preceive reality from outside the point of view of this illusion called I. And I realized that somehow I was trying this from inside the I.

but it sounds like you expected a feeling of "not being there"... right?

Yes, and this is scary!!
I believe that this is not the case. This feeling of existence, of being there, still remains. Right?

Notice how the whole idea of the doer, the thinker, the knower "Dênis" has always been happening just in thoughts.

Yes. But I'm still confused about it. If there is no Dênis, but the feeling of being there remains, then what is this that is aware of everything and is aware of this localized existence called Dênis so far?

Realization usually doesn't happen with a big "bang", fireworks etc.
But there might be a slight shift in perception happening over days or weeks.
This realization is more like a gentle beginning of something.

I like this idea, and I think that this has been happening to me for a while. For three years now, I began to feel a deep connection with nature. I never felt this before. Now I realize that we belong to a system, and this is beautiful!
I think there's still an expectation that there will be a "WOW! moment". A moment when This shift in perception happens.

How does it feel being/talking with other people now? Any difference?

When we began this process, being and talking with other people was different. But now it seems that these interactions are "normal" as always again.... :-(

Can you know the size of your body?

I can't. I notice that some thoughts appear bringing some content about the size of my body. But I can't know it.

Can you know the weight and scope?

No. Same as above.

In actual experience, does your body have a shape or form?

No! It feels like a cloud of sensations.

Is there a boundary between "body" and "clothes"?

No, there are some sensations in some points where the weight or the texture of the clothes are more vivid.

Is there a boundary between body and matress/chair/mat?

No, same as above. I feel some pressure where my "back" and my "buttocks" press the chair. No boundaries.

Is there something like "inside" and "outside"? If yes, inside of what?

This is strange. Although I don't feel the size, weight or boundaries of the body, it seems that the "command center" of these perceptions is inside my head...

Is there actually "a body"?

When I made the exercise, the body dissolved. But now he's here again!

Is perception "living" in a certain place?

Yes, inside my head!! Or, at least, in the region where my head was expected to be.

In this perceiving - is there something missing, something that should be other?

I don't know... Maybe I need some help with feeling that the perception is not inside my head.

best wishes!
Dênis

[seeadler]

I believe all this process is exactly trying to preceive reality from outside the point of view of this illusion called I. And I realized that somehow I was trying this from inside the I.

but it sounds like you expected a feeling of "not being there"... right?

Yes, and this is scary!!
I believe that this is not the case. This feeling of existence, of being there, still remains. Right?

Yes, it remains. Everything stays as it is.
It's not about "trying" something. Life is happening, now! the all-including awareness is there, now! It's just very often hooked up in thoughts, because we are conditioned to take them for reality. Like this separate self.

You might start to notice that this "Me" - that needs to assert itself, that seemingly controls "your life", that takes everything personally - is only a thought.

But I'm still confused about it. If there is no Dênis, but the feeling of being there remains, then what is this that is aware of everything and is aware of this localized existence called Dênis so far?

I don't know what it is. I think people call it awareness :-)
Is it actually somewhere? Or is it more an open space, like the sky, wherein everything appears?

Sensations, sounds, emotions, thoughts like the story of "me, Dênis and my life"............

I think there's still an expectation that there will be a "WOW! moment". A moment when This shift in perception happens.

When we began this process, being and talking with other people was different. But now it seems that these interactions are "normal" as always again.... :-(

Who is expecting a WOW moment?
What is it that permanently craves improvement, eternally hopes for a "better tomorrow" ? ;-)



kalle

[deniselias]

Hey, Kalle!

Yes, it remains. Everything stays as it is.

This helps!

You might start to notice that this "Me" - that needs to assert itself, that seemingly controls "your life", that takes everything personally - is only a thought.

I understand this, but I don't feel it. By logic, if only the things that I perceive directly are real, and thoughts are not things that I perceive directly, then thoughts are not real.
And if I look for an I, only thoughts appear. Therefore, the I doesn't exist.
But it seems that this is another... thought!!
What am I doing wrong??

Is it actually somewhere? Or is it more an open space, like the sky, wherein everything appears?

I still feel that my awarenes is located inside my head, behind my eyes. In this place there is a command center!

Who is expecting a WOW moment?
What is it that permanently craves improvement, eternally hopes for a "better tomorrow" ? ;-)

I'm lost... Maybe is this exactly I that is just a bunch of thoughts...

Help!!!

Dênis

[seeadler]

hey Dênis,

You might start to notice that this "Me" - that needs to assert itself, that seemingly controls "your life", that takes everything personally - is only a thought.

I understand this, but I don't feel it. By logic, if only the things that I perceive directly are real, and thoughts are not things that I perceive directly, then thoughts are not real.
And if I look for an I, only thoughts appear. Therefore, the I doesn't exist.
But it seems that this is another... thought!!

if you look for a beer in your fridge, and there is none - is this only a thought? and beer might still be there?

It is as simple as this.

"I" is

a bunch of thoughts...

- not more and not less.

I still feel that my awareness is located inside my head, behind my eyes. In this place there is a command center!

ok. What exactly is SEEN or FELT in actual experience?

If you find a sensation, does it suggest anything about a brain or a command center?

Does a sensation have any meaning by itself?


Dênis, it needs your openness to recognize only what is really found in AE. Everything else cannot be known.
I don't want to deny that it seems there is a something "behind the eyes". But we need to really look what is left when ignoring the "thoughts about", so without all the learned, unquestioned stuff.


:-)
kalle

[deniselias]

Hi, Kalle!

if you look for a beer in your fridge, and there is none - is this only a thought? and beer might still be there?

It is as simple as this.

It seems that I'm having trouble in accepting that thoughts are not real. Something is missing to dismantle this belief.
I know that thoughts are a process quite different from the perceptions that come through the senses. But aren't both sensations and thoughts (and emotions) realized in the psyche? At least, in the brain?
It's difficult for me to accept that thoughts are less real than sensations.

ok. What exactly is SEEN or FELT in actual experience?

Nothing is seen. But there is a kind of feeling that this bunch of thoughts happen in this place. I think that it gets worse when the thougts assume a discoursive form... like a voice inside me. Maybe I'm used to associate the perception of the voice of other people with the ears, and then this space where the thoughts seem to appear are in the middle of the two ears.

If you find a sensation, does it suggest anything about a brain or a command center?

Not a brain, definitively. It´s more like a perception center.

Does a sensation have any meaning by itself?

No. Sensations are "raw". Just an effect of interaction.

Dênis, it needs your openness to recognize only what is really found in AE. Everything else cannot be known.
I don't want to deny that it seems there is a something "behind the eyes". But we need to really look what is left when ignoring the "thoughts about", so without all the learned, unquestioned stuff.

This is hard! I always relied on thoughts... What do I have to do to understand that thoughts are less real than sensations?

Dênis

[seeadler]

Dear Dênis,

let's try to get clear about this.
We can't deny there is something appearing we call "thoughts", right? They appear as pictures, words, voice, sounds.

Like when you think of a friend from childhood. Now an image appears in thought, right?

So this image "old friend" is the "thought content".

So we must say, yes, a "thought" is appearing now, it is real!
If that was your question........
But we must say, no, your friend is not appearing now, he is not real!
The thought content, what the thought is about, can not be found now, is not real.

Right?

Remember the fruit exercise from Nov.25, if the description (the thought content) is reality:

In general, does thought know ever anything of experience?
No, Thoughts are just a system of representation. They are disconnected from the experience.
Are thoughts able to understand reality?
No. Thoughts can think about the reality, they can indicate something real. But they aren't the direct experience of the reality.

It's difficult for me to accept that thoughts are less real than sensations.

Other example: A thirsty man is begging for a glass of water.... will you tell him: hey, just think of water!" ?



So: it is difficult for WHO to accept something??

Either there is something in reality that "has trouble", or not.



kalle

[deniselias]

Hello, Kalle!

Now I got it!

We can't deny there is something appearing we call "thoughts", right? They appear as pictures, words, voice, sounds.

This is better! Thoughts exists!! OK

So we must say, yes, a "thought" is appearing now, it is real!
If that was your question........
But we must say, no, your friend is not appearing now, he is not real!
The thought content, what the thought is about, can not be found now, is not real.

Allright! And I noticed that the "I" that I thought I was (hehe) is a bunch of thoughts with contents that are stories about this character, Dênis.

But then... I still have this feeling of existence, this awareness of all these perceptions. So what is this that perceives?
Also, I can't feel this fully... It seems that the old "I" still gets in the way.

Warm regards!

Dênis

[seeadler]

Hi Dênis!

Allright! And I noticed that the "I" that I thought I was (hehe) is a bunch of thoughts with contents that are stories about this character, Dênis.

Exactly. And I now finally noticed I misunderstood your reply from last Thursday when you started to be irritated about thoughts not existing at all:

This is hard! I always relied on thoughts... What do I have to do to understand that thoughts are less real than sensations?

Nothing ;-) Thoughts are experienced, are real.
For some reason I thought you were talking about the content of thought.

I'm sorry for that, but now we are back on track ;-)


I still have a question concerning the body sensation exercise.

Is perception "living" in a certain place?
Yes, inside my head!! Or, at least, in the region where my head was expected to be.

When you say "my head" - what is actually experienced??

If you find a sensation, what is it that tells you where it is and whom it belongs to?


When you sit quietly, aware of colour, sounds, bodily sensations, thoughts - in AE can you find any boundary to "perception"?

[deniselias]

Hi, Kalle!

Exactly. And I now finally noticed I misunderstood your reply from last Thursday when you started to be irritated about thoughts not existing at all:

No problem!!

Nothing ;-) Thoughts are experienced, are real.
For some reason I thought you were talking about the content of thought.

I'm glad that we're back on track!!

When you say "my head" - what is actually experienced??

A bunch of thoughts that seem to occur in the upper part of my body!... Now I don't understand why, hehe.
This localization is annoying!
I've heard about some people who, because of a trauma in infanthood, directs their "energy" to the head... Maybe that's what's happened to me. When I was trhee years old, a younger brother died due to meningitis. It was a enourmous pain to all family. Nobody talked about it. And I "learned" this scheme - I "forgot" this event for some years. Accidentaly, I discovered everything when I was seventeen, and it took me more two years to talk with my parents about it.
And in the last two years I've discovered a disconnection with the sensations of the body.
Meybe these things are connected... maybe I disconnected from my body and hid in my thoughts.
Now, AE is a great exercise of reconnecting to sensations. But this difficult of getting out of the "head" is still a challenge.
It's not as before... now it seems like a cloud, and not a point.

If you find a sensation, what is it that tells you where it is and whom it belongs to?

When I observe my hand on the table, i find a sensation happening. It is just happening, it's not mine. But immediately a thought appears and localizes the sensation in the position of my hand.

When you sit quietly, aware of colour, sounds, bodily sensations, thoughts - in AE can you find any boundary to "perception"?

I can´t. It´s a cloud of sensations. This lasts just a few seconds, because the thoughts get in the way again!!

Regards,

DÇenis

[seeadler]

hey Dênis,

I've heard about some people who, because of a trauma in infanthood, directs their "energy" to the head... Maybe that's what's happened to me. When I was trhee years old, a younger brother died due to meningitis. It was a enourmous pain to all family. Nobody talked about it. And I "learned" this scheme - I "forgot" this event for some years. Accidentaly, I discovered everything when I was seventeen, and it took me more two years to talk with my parents about it.

I'm sorry to hear about that.
But when those memories appear, you could use them and have a look, if a bodily sensation comes along with it.
Connect with that sensation.... just that, not the story - let the sensation be there and watch it... :-)
Ask it, if it wants to protect something.

And in the last two years I've discovered a disconnection with the sensations of the body.

ok. In AE: Where is this disconnection you discovered?

Can you see, hear, smell, taste or feel it?
What exactly is disconnected from what?


But maybe you are speaking about this phenomenon:

When you sit quietly, aware of colour, sounds, bodily sensations, thoughts - in AE can you find any boundary to "perception"?

I can´t. It´s a cloud of sensations. This lasts just a few seconds, because the thoughts get in the way again!!

Yes, exactly- but it sounds like there is a belief that thoughts should get less in order to stay with direct experience.
As you saw from the thought exercise in the beginning - there is no control over thoughts.
As you saw as well, "thinking happening", seeing thoughts come and go, is a part of your direct experience!

So it is about seeing that the automatical thinking is happening, and this "The thoughts get in my way!!" is just part of this automatical thinking, talking to itself!

Can you see this?

But then... I still have this feeling of existence, this awareness of all these perceptions. So what is this that perceives?

When you look at the wall- can you separate the looking from the seen?
Can you find a "looker" separate from the seen/looking ?


Are there questions?



-------------------------

here one more exercise:
sit down for 15 minutes, take a pencil and paper, and a few deep breaths to let the dust settle.

Now just watch your thoughts, coming and going.
Divide the paper in 2 halfs, and for each thought with an "I"-reference, you write an I on the left side;
for each thought without I-reference you write an O on the right side ;-)

Notice also "hidden" I-thoughts like "it's too hot outside" or "that car is ugly".

tell me about it.

kalle

[deniselias]

Hi, Kalle!

But when those memories appear, you could use them and have a look, if a bodily sensation comes along with it.
Connect with that sensation.... just that, not the story - let the sensation be there and watch it... :-)
Ask it, if it wants to protect something.

There are no memories... these things are kind of hidden. I'll try to do it, anyway.

In AE: Where is this disconnection you discovered?

Can you see, hear, smell, taste or feel it?
What exactly is disconnected from what?

I think that this disconnection exists for a long time, but I just became aware of it in the last two years.
I think that I wasn't aware of the sensations... almost as if my thoughts dominated all my mind, and the sensations were not noticed.

So it is about seeing that the automatical thinking is happening, and this "The thoughts get in my way!!" is just part of this automatical thinking, talking to itself!

Can you see this?

Yes, I can! Interesting!!

When you look at the wall- can you separate the looking from the seen?
Can you find a "looker" separate from the seen/looking ?

I can't. The looker is not separate from the seen nor from the looking.

here one more exercise:
sit down for 15 minutes, take a pencil and paper, and ...

tell me about it.

No "O" at all!!
ALL THE THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT "I" !!!!!
I feel something; I observe something; I hear something; I remember something; I worry about something; I label something; I judge something; I, I, I.......
I got tired of "I", hehe!!

Dênis

[seeadler]

hi Dênis,

In AE: Where is this disconnection you discovered?

Can you see, hear, smell, taste or feel it?
What exactly is disconnected from what?

I think that this disconnection exists for a long time, but I just became aware of it in the last two years.
I think that I wasn't aware of the sensations... almost as if my thoughts dominated all my mind, and the sensations were not noticed.

ok, please let's look what is left of this story in actual experience.

What says they are "your" thoughts?

What do you actually experience when telling "thoughts dominate all my mind"?

Please, AE only: seeing /hearing /smelling /tasting /feeling / perceiving thoughts

So it is about seeing that the automatical thinking is happening, and this "The thoughts get in my way!!" is just part of this automatical thinking, talking to itself!

Can you see this?

Yes, I can! Interesting!!

When you look at the wall- can you separate the looking from the seen?
Can you find a "looker" separate from the seen/looking ?

I can't. The looker is not separate from the seen nor from the looking.

:-)

here one more exercise:
sit down for 15 minutes, take a pencil and paper, and ...

tell me about it.

No "O" at all!!
ALL THE THOUGHTS ARE ABOUT "I" !!!!!
I feel something; I observe something; I hear something; I remember something; I worry about something; I label something; I judge something; I, I, I.......
I got tired of "I", hehe!!

It is tiring :-D

read these sentences:


I type an answer.
I think about tomorrow.
I want to have a coffee
I am breathing

compare it to this ones:


Typing an answer
Thinking about tomorrow
in the mood for a coffee
Breathing happens


Do you feel a difference? Could you describe?



kalle

[deniselias]

Hey, Kalle!

What says they are "your" thoughts?

What do you actually experience when telling "thoughts dominate all my mind"?

Please, AE only: seeing /hearing /smelling /tasting /feeling / perceiving thoughts

It seems that they are my thoughts because they are perceived by "me" and ther refer to something that happened to "me", so they tell this story from "my" point of view... just because of that... but I see that they are just thoughts!
Whan I feel like thoughts doinate all my mind it´s because a lot of thoughts appear and kidnap my attention. No seeing, no hearing, no tasting, sometimes feeling some emotions related to the thoughts, a lot of perceiving thoughts.

Do you feel a difference? Could you describe?

Yes, there's a difference. The first ones, with "I", are heavier. There is more authorship, more responsibility, there's also a feeling of choice and decision.
The last ones are lighter. They describe events that just happens. The first three refers to an "I" more than the last one, I think.

This is interesting and leads to an ethic issue.
Let's suppose I hate my neighbour next door. Now I realize the thoughts and feelings are just events, and they are not mine.
I recognize the hate and the will to kill him. And I kill him, and that's ok because everything is random, I don't choose anything, my thoughts aren´t mine...
How is this issue addressed in this view of reality?

Warm wishes,

Dênis

[seeadler]

hi Dênis,

This is interesting and leads to an ethic issue.
Let's suppose I hate my neighbour next door. Now I realize the thoughts and feelings are just events, and they are not mine.
I recognize the hate and the will to kill him. And I kill him, and that's ok because everything is random, I don't choose anything, my thoughts aren´t mine...
How is this issue addressed in this view of reality?

Who exactly needs to know that?


Who has "an issue"?

[deniselias]

Hey Kalle!

Who exactly needs to know that?


Who has "an issue"?

I think I do, existing or not.
Isn't it an important issue??