Being selfless self

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

In your introductory post, you said :

I understand that there is no self, that we are awareness that is aware, that notices and experiences but that there is no real doer or active agent. I understand that when we look deeply within, there is nobody here. My direct experience is sensations and perceptions but they are also not me. My sense is that I am no self that is aware.

You came to this forum to see that there is no you, no entity living its life, that there is only awareness (being aware) which is impersonal.


In your last post you said :

I am getting very confused. If there is no I, then I am not sure how I can answer the questions. If there is no I, then whatever the I perceive through the 5 senses cannot be trusted because surely that is all based on imagination.

In the first instance you were doing observations of the body, of thoughts and you said there is no"I" outside of thought, now you go to thoughts and you say "the I perceive through the 5 senses". You don't accept the fact that things can be done without you, without a doer. yes there is aliveness, awareness but it is not Lisa, it is not you. You know how to LOOK, then answer to questions after having done the looking, not imagining the looking.

Question :

Describe this "I" which perceives through the senses? How does it looks like?
What are you in your own words, what is Lisa ? Look.
What is awareness in your own words ? Look

Don't go to the mind, make the effort to give answers after looking at direct experience.

Warissem

[summerrain]

HI Warissem,

Thank you for your message. I will take some extra time to reply . I'll work on what you've sent me.
Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

take your time to look.

Warissem

[summerrain]

Describe this "I" which perceives through the senses? How does it looks like?

The I that perceives through the senses is awake, taking information in, it seems to meet the information that is being perceived, it is neutral like a blank screen that registers when it receives information. it seems to be just a knowing. A knowing of the perceptions and of the fact that it is alive.

What are you in your own words, what is Lisa ? Look.

Lisa is the name that my parents assigned to this body. Isn't me the same as the I in the first question and not Lisa?

What is awareness in your own words ? Look

Awareness is the sense of beingness and knowingness that is here all the time. It has no words or thoughts. It's expansive and boundless. It contains everything. It has no agency. It's quiet and still. It just simply is.

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Is there a firm conviction that there is no separate self, no you in any shape or form ?
if there are doubts, feel free to let me know about them. If not, tell me if you are ready to answer to the final questions?

Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

Is there a firm conviction that there is no separate self, no you in any shape or form ?
if there are doubts, feel free to let me know about them. If not, tell me if you are ready to answer to the final questions?

I don't have a firm conviction about this. I don't have a visceral knowing that there is no separate self. For example, I am convinced I am alive but as for having a self or no self, I don't have a 'conviction' about it. I have a conviction that my thoughts are not me and I have no control over them. The same goes for my feelings. I think I believe and understand that actions just happen on their own. that is still taking some getting used to. I also know that the label is not necessary, whether it's Lisa or 'I'. I have a conviction that awareness is here and that is me. However, I don't have a knowing where these elements are all part of a cohesive whole that says : "This all means that there is no separate self."

I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I don't have a firm conviction about this. I don't have a visceral knowing that there is no separate self.

OK. Does it mean that there is a separate self ? You cannot take a stick in the middle here : even there is a separate self (it is apparent to the senses ) or a separate self is a thought, a belief.

For example, I am convinced I am alive but as for having a self or no self, I don't have a 'conviction' about it.

Does aliveness need a self to be ? Look at direct experience. Does a baby need a self to be ?

I have a conviction that my thoughts are not me and I have no control over them. The same goes for my feelings.

Good.

I think I believe and understand that actions just happen on their own. that is still taking some getting used to.

Is it a belief or a seeing that there is no you doing things or making them happen ?

I also know that the label is not necessary, whether it's Lisa or 'I'. I have a conviction that awareness is here and that is me. However, I don't have a knowing where these elements are all part of a cohesive whole that says : "This all means that there is no separate self."

I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

yes, I understand what you are saying. In one hand, you are convinced that you are awereness (being aware), in another hand you still believe in a separate self or there is a doubt about it. To be clear with this, just stand as awareness and look at this soi disant separate self. After having looked, give a definitive answer to yourself : is there a separate self in any shape or form, has it never been ?


NB : to see that there is no separate self does not mean enlightenment or realization. There is still operating as a “separate self” due to conditionings, past tendencies and habits. This will cease completely after seeing through the illusion again and again 24/7.

I recommend this video for you : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sl4Ajb7 ... Z0TEp60DeQ

Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem

I'm still working on your last message.

Thank you. Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Take your time

Good looking

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

Can I please clarify some of your words in your last message, as I am not entirely sure what you mean.

even there is a separate self (it is apparent to the senses ) or a separate self is a thought, a belief.

are you saying here that I am believing there is a separate self IF it is apparent to the senses or it is a thought I have?

To be clear with this, just stand as awareness and look at this soi disant separate self.

I think there might be a typo here. Could you say this again?

Thank you.
Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I invite you to a chat right now. Click on private messages and we'll discuss about what you said.

Warissem

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

are you saying here that I am believing there is a separate self IF it is apparent to the senses or it is a thought I have?

Something which does not exist cannot appear to the senses. Even you have seen that the separate self, a "you" does not exist then it is a thought or a belief, even you see it (the separate self) then you describe it for me.

I think there might be a typo here. Could you say this again?

You said that "I" is awareness, that which is seeing this words. I said : as awareness (what you are) look at this separate self and write down if it exists or not.

best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Thank you for clarifying Warissem. I'll work on this now.

Lisa

[warissem]

take your time to look.

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

I'm sorry for missing your invitation for a chat in the private message. I only just realised that you had sent that message.

I will reply to your questions

OK. Does it mean that there is a separate self ? You cannot take a stick in the middle here : even there is a separate self (it is apparent to the senses ) or a separate self is a thought, a belief.

You asked this in relation to when I said I don't have a firm conviction that there is no separate self. I don't think it means that there is a separate self just because I don't have a firm conviction about it. I don't perceive a separate self through the senses so it must be a belief that still exists that somehow, my existence is being managed by something even if it is some sort of coherent intelligence. The idea that there is no self makes me think that if there is no self, this body or the experiences of this body or even what is being perceived by the mind would be totally random and arbitrary and not come together in some sort of cohesive whole but it does not appear totally random or nonsensical. That is why I struggle with the idea that there is no organising principle or force.

Does aliveness need a self to be ? Look at direct experience. Does a baby need a self to be ?

Aliveness does not need a self to exist. If I go back to my previous response, it seems like the aliveness is being organised in some way that is 'logical' or coherent. In the absence of a separate self, does aliveness have its own internal intelligence?

Is it a belief or a seeing that there is no you doing things or making them happen ?

It is more like a feeling that there no me doing or making things happen. It doesn't feel like there is a voice inside of me telling me what to type. The words seem to appear on the screen as I type although some sort of intelligence seems to be generating the response that I am typing. It is hard to believe that it's all random and that the right words are somehow appearing in response to your question.

as awareness (what you are) look at this separate self and write down if it exists or not.

Awareness cannot see a separate self. If I am sitting still, awareness only feels the aliveness of itself. Other sensations or perceptions are of the external world. If I walk, awareness notices sensations in the body walking, but doesn't see a separate self walking.

Thank you for the video. I understand that I am beingness. I think it is just my mind that wants to create a story to understand how this being happens and that is why I keep thinking I don't believe that there is no self, but I do understand being alive and being beingness and being existence without an orchestrator.

Lisa