The Gate

Hi Ian,

I’ve been very busy, and I have too many clients, so sometimes I cannot reply to everyone.

I think that I need to spend more time on the direct experiential looking, to counteract the tendency to go to thoughts and concepts.

Yes. This is something very important. Seeing cannot happen by thinking. You cannot think yourself into seeing something. All insight happens in a moment of looking.

The impression then is that the sound is located at one location within this scene and not others. There is another brown shape on the right. The sound is not there.

Please experiment again with the sound. The sound has to be there when looking.

Close your eyes and investigate:
Does the raw sound itself suggest in any way that it’s coming from the ice making machine?
Does the raw sound communicate anything at all?
If not, what is giving this information?

Now open your eyes.
Look at the ice making machines surroundings.
Look at the table or the bench under it just a few centimetres / inches.

Does the image (colours) itself suggest in any way that sound is located in the ‘machine’ and not in the bench under it?
Why not a few centimeters behind, in front of, bellow, above, left or right?
Do the colors provide any information at all?
If not, what is giving this information?

So to answer your question: based on the “normal” (??) experience of spatial layout, the sound appears “located” by reference to certain areas of shape and colour and not others.

You might not see it (yet), but this is an intellectual answer. You have to look more closely what is actually happening in experience.

OK, sorry. I thought that the word “experience” was allowed. When I use the word “experience” I am not intending to mean an “experiencer” or an act of “experiencing”. So, OK no, the sound is not experienced. A sound is occurring. There is sound.

All right.

Yes, as above, considering the “scene”, being just an array of colours and shapes, there is sound at the same apparent place in the scene as the shapes and colours labelled “ice maker”.

How do you know that there is a sound at the same apparent place?
Do you SEE the sound being there?
Does the sound says “Hey, I’m here”?

Yes, apparently so, there is. There is some kind of spatial layout. All the colours, shapes, sounds and touch sensations are not all occurring on top of each other. That would be a complete mess!! They are distinct. Spread out.

Imagine that you are a new born baby, who has no knowledge about the world, don’t know anything about the objects in the kitchen, has no idea about anything, has no words to express anything.

Is there an actual spatial layout?
Or in order to perceive any spatial layout thoughts and concepts are needed, cutting up colours and shapes into pieces labelling certain colours as benchtop, other colors and shapes as fridge, etc.?

I can imagine that it could be mediated by a thought idea, but that is not my actual experience. It seems very hard to believe that the spatial relationship is not real. Unless this is all some fancy virtual reality projection in side my "head", but that is not what is here, unless of course it is all an illusion!!

Look, it’s not essential to see this. This is well beyond seeing no self. Well beyond. So we don’t have to dig deeper.

Well, the words “actual location” could be tricky!! GPS location? On “earth”?? In my house? But describing just what is, in the juxtaposition of colours, shapes (floor, walls, furniture – labels), sensations of touch (sitting on a chair) and sounds, the “ice maker” sound is happening where it is, and not elsewhere. The sound is not in the same location as the “chair” shape.

You are intellectualizing. And you are frustrated. I understand.

It doesn’t matter how hard I consider it, the sense of relative spatial position is very very strong.

It’s not about considering. It’s about putting aside ALL knowledge you have about objects and position and so on, and just look at what is actually happening UNDER all that conceptual overlay.

But as I said, this is not essential to see. I have a tendency to go beyond looking at the self, especially when I see that someone is interested. But we don’t have to do this.

If that sense of spatial location is, as you say, not real, but only created as a thought image, then it totally has me fooled!!

It is NOT about spatial location. It’s all about thoughts! The same things happened here what you’ve discovered a few days ago that you were not just falling for thoughts, but you mistook it with reality, and not seeing reality as it was. We (humans) look at everything through tinted glasses, the glasses of concepts and beliefs.

I’m giving you a video where someone explains the scientific standpoint on how seeing, hearing happens, and also how the self is constructed. I usually don’t show anything intellectual, since it’s very easy to cling onto. But maybe it could help to calm down your hungry intellect :)

(He is talking about other stuff too at the end, just ignore that).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE0ffEx ... E3mn1DVGtg

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

I’ve been very busy, and I have too many clients, so sometimes I cannot reply to everyone.

That’s what I expected. No problems. We are all very grateful for your time.

Imagine that you are a new born baby, who has no knowledge about the world, don’t know anything about the objects in the kitchen, has no idea about anything, has no words to express anything.

Is there an actual spatial layout?
Or in order to perceive any spatial layout thoughts and concepts are needed, cutting up colours and shapes into pieces labelling certain colours as benchtop, other colors and shapes as fridge, etc.?

Well Vivien, I have to say that the new born baby reference, the Alan Watts drawing and the video have really hit home here!!!

I felt a real shift looking how a new born baby experiences and then looking at the Alan Watts drawing!!!
I see exactly what you mean. At the level of raw experience, it is all just what it is, colours, shapes, noises, but no concepts, no spatial layout, no assumptions about any of that. It is only the thoughts that break it up into things, separate it into separate things with labels.
Without thoughts it is just one seamless projection of colours and shapes and movement and sounds. Its all just happening – to no-one!! I really get that now. Its kind of overwhelming!! And it is so immediate and direct with no separation, no experiencer, no subject-object split. Just everywhere and no-where, its total immersion!!
You have really helped me see what I was missing - the role of thoughts in hiding reality, hiding what is. The "thought trick"!!

And then as you said:

All insight happens in a moment of looking.

But maybe it [the video] could help to calm down your hungry intellect :)

It certainly has!
I loved the video description of the holographic 3D Fourier transformation inside the brain experienced by no-one!! Literally no self watching anything!!
It caused the thoughts to stop. Just seeing this, all this!!
I really don’t have any more questions coming up.

Thank you, Vivien. This is totally clear now.

Hi Ian,

Well Vivien, I have to say that the new born baby reference, the Alan Watts drawing and the video have really hit home here!!!

I felt a real shift looking how a new born baby experiences and then looking at the Alan Watts drawing!!!

I’m glad to hear that :)

A few days ago you wrote:

But seeing seems to be more difficult and I belief that is because there is belief in thought images about seeing and looking and who is looking or seeing that create the sense that seeing is somehow "in here". There is more of a sense of a "looker" than there is a "hearer" and with the belief in the sense of a looker comes a sense of location "inside here". Even though it is seen that, just like sounds, what is seen, the sensation of seeing an object is actually seen to be where that object is. The seeing and the object are one thing. It seems hard to experience that clearly without the sense of there being a "looker" somehow located at the centre from which things are seen. This is very strong.

How do you see this now?

Vivien

But seeing seems to be more difficult and I belief that is because there is belief in thought images about seeing and looking and who is looking or seeing that create the sense that seeing is somehow "in here". There is more of a sense of a "looker" than there is a "hearer" and with the belief in the sense of a looker comes a sense of location "inside here". Even though it is seen that, just like sounds, what is seen, the sensation of seeing an object is actually seen to be where that object is. The seeing and the object are one thing. It seems hard to experience that clearly without the sense of there being a "looker" somehow located at the centre from which things are seen. This is very strong.

How do you see this now?

Yep, that is exactly what changed.
It was a couple of things.

In the video was the statement "The eyes cannot see. The eyes do not see anything"!!
That is a shocking realisation, because it is so taken for granted that the eyes are actually seeing the whole picture!!
They are not. As he said, the eyes don't see colours or brightness or a picture at all!!

Then he described the common view (illusion) that we are "something, some spiritual little entity inside the head behind the eyes, looking out through the eyes like windows"!!!!
Another shocking realisation of how ridiculous that is!!
It suddenly became clear that, as you have been pointing to, that is a false but very convincing image created by thought.

At that point, the thought trick of there being a "a looker "me" looking out from inside" just collapsed. There is just seeing, by no-one. This is where the baby experience pointer helped.
With the seeing through of that false thought created structure, any sense of separation, of distance between a "looker" and what is seen, collapsed. The subject-object split you talked of. That's why I described it as being so immediate, so direct.
Seeing is effortless, just like hearing and other sensations. It doesn't need doing. It just happens. Immediately.
That is the experience now, in the absence of thoughts about it.

Like I think you said earlier in our exchange:

The everyday human condition is being almost completely lost in the content of thoughts, not seeing them only as thoughts, but rather believing them and thus mistaking them for reality.

But the points in the video show how we so naively "believe" in such an untrue view of something so obvious as: how we actually see!!! When something like that is pointed out and seen to be so untrue, it really hits you!
There is absolutely no-one here, no-one inside looking out or hearing things, but it is all working perfectly by itself!!
Amazing.

This is now totally clear. And although I am sure that it will require more work not to fall back into thoughts, I am now far more aware of these thought "tricks" as you called them.

And also as you said:

All insight happens in a moment of looking.

Thank you so much, Vivien.

Hi Ian,

At that point, the thought trick of there being a "a looker "me" looking out from inside" just collapsed. There is just seeing, by no-one. This is where the baby experience pointer helped.
With the seeing through of that false thought created structure, any sense of separation, of distance between a "looker" and what is seen, collapsed. The subject-object split you talked of. That's why I described it as being so immediate, so direct.
Seeing is effortless, just like hearing and other sensations. It doesn't need doing. It just happens. Immediately.
That is the experience now, in the absence of thoughts about it.

Beautiful :)

What I suggest to do is to wait a day or two to see if anything comes up.
Just wait and see what happens. Please write me in a few days, how things are going.

Vivien

Ok, Vivien. That is a good idea.
Will report back.

Thank you
Ian

Hi Vivian,

What I suggest to do is to wait a day or two to see if anything comes up.
Just wait and see what happens. Please write me in a few days, how things are going.

As you suggested, I am writing after a day or two to report back.

It is of course hard to convey what has changed!
As I said in my message after the video and the baby view, somehow a layer has been removed. All sense of there being any separation or distance between an experiencer and what is experienced has collapsed. I had felt that before (I had the feeling that I was nothing, I had disappeared from the middle!!), but as you pointed out, there was still a residual belief in a thought structure creating the subject-object distance or split, which was still in the way. I think that I had taken on board the ideas of "awareness" or "space" or "knowing" etc. and was super imposing those concepts on top of raw experience and creating a separation or distance where there isn't one.
But that has now certainly gone. There is just direct experience of whatever is happening.
Its rather like auto-focussing on a camera. Suddenly the blur of "two" has become the crystal clear one.
It has kind of snapped into focus!! Does that make sense??

There are a lot less "self" related thoughts arising.
In every day living the most challenging difference is relating to others, because of knowing that there is no "self" on either side of the exchange, even if that is maybe not known by the other person. So that feels a little weird.
I have been discussing this a lot with my wife, which helps.

There were some thoughts that of course raised doubts or said "this can't be it"!! But in fact the actual seeing, looking, is so strong and clear that those thoughts no longer have much power over what is known for sure in the looking!

Happy to have your thoughts on this status so far. I certainly don't have any questions.

Thank you, Vivien.

Hi Ian,

Thank you for coming back and sharing.

What we usually do at this state of the process is to ask some final questions to see if everything is totally clear.
Are you ready for these final questions?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

What we usually do at this state of the process is to ask some final questions to see if everything is totally clear.
Are you ready for these final questions?

Yes, sure. Fire away. Thank you.

Hi Ian,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, there is no such entity, anywhere, in any way, shape or form and there never was.
It is nothing more than a pervasive belief, based in thought, which then triggers other thoughts and behaviours.
If such an entity existed, it would be possible to find it, however, even after lots of concentrated pointers and looking, it cannot be found.
It is seen to be nothing more than a belief.
When a belief is seen not to be actually true in experience, it can no longer be believed and loses its power.
As a belief it falls away or gets discarded.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.

The concept of being an actual separate entity starts to be formed in a baby when it interacts with its parents and other people and things. Those early interactions lead to a mental representation that there is “me” and “them”. It is the birth of the subject-object split. At some point it solidifies into a very strong belief that I am something separate, I am an entity, separate from all other entities. From that point on, every interaction seems to build on and reinforce that separate “me” view.

As I look back in memories now of my own childhood, I can see so many times that process was in action and then how I started to believe that I was someone!!

This mental construct becomes so strong that it then colours how the world is perceived, creating the whole basis for separation within raw experience, where no such boundaries exist.

With the passing years, all of the experiences and memories start to accumulate and become the story of that separate “me” entity, which becomes the focus of a “self” image. At that point, there is reactivity to any experience that in any way relates to or threatens that “self” and that reactivity starts to become the basis for personality traits, style and behaviours. This combines to create a complex cloud of conditioning , most of which is not consciously known and yet drives thinking and behaviours in relation to the world and other perceived “selves”. But all of that is going on and happening without any actual “self” ever existing. It is all just through belief in “selfing” thoughts.
For many people such conditioning can be very deeply seated and yet is the source of negative self images that can cause a great deal of suffering, such as anxiety, fear, lack of confidence etc. It is rarely questioned why this might be so.

Describe it fully as you see it now.

When it is seen so clearly that the “self” is nothing more than a belief in thought and that no such entity can be found or exists, it starts to remove the lynch pin around which so much of the conditioning is based. For me now, many of the thoughts that arise due to my own conditioning have lost their reference point. They are seen to be empty. They relate to something that is no longer believed in.

At the same time, as a result of the pointing and looking at thoughts, it was seen that there is no thinker here, just thoughts randomly arising and then falling away. So again another anchor point for the “me” doing all the thinking just fell away. Thoughts arise, thoughts are experienced, but their content is no longer believed. Being anchored in actual looking, in raw experience, is the key.

3) How does it feel to see this?

There was a big sense of relief to have finally found the answer or the reason of why all previous seeking had failed. It had always been about trying to do things, practices, meditations, breathing, etc etc. in the hope that somehow something magic would happen!!! Wanting to have experiences that other people had had.

But it was all due to a belief in something that didn’t exist – “me”. It was a belief that “me” needed fixing. “me” needed to learn something, understand something. Never ending and so frustrating.

So it feels amazing that the source of all of that turns out to be a belief in something that never even existed!!
But not as an intellectual understanding but as an experienced reality.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There were a number of shifts.

When no “self” was seen through by looking, the question arose “well, what is here then?”.

Just this, raw experience. But at that point, with no “self”, it was realized that there can be no experiencer, no separate entity or looker having or experiencing the experience. In that seeing, the separation collapsed.

The experience here was of the sense of an “I” looking out just dissolved, collapsed, there was just sensing, just what is seen, what is heard, what is felt. And with that suddenly experience seemed so much more direct, immediate. It snapped into sharp focus.

Thoughts have died down quite a bit. The direct experience seemed so still and silent. A lot of the previous “normal” background babbling went quiet. It seems weird to say it, but everything seems suddenly so much more vivid, colours, light, shapes. So real. So direct.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

My guide, Vivien, saw where I was stuck in unquestioned thoughts and asked me to consider how a new born baby experiences the world, especially without thoughts serving to divide reality up. This was also captured in an Alan Watts drawing she sent me, plus a video. All three of these pointers pushed me over. The biggest realization was that the eyes do NOT actually see anything!! They are just photon receptors. I had this ridiculous image that “I” was somehow something inside my head (“behind the eyes”) looking out into the world “through” the eyes like windows! I suddenly saw how crazy that is and at that moment, the “looker” disappeared!!

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

The big realization in seeing that the idea of a separate “self” entity is nothing more than a long standing belief in something that doesn’t exist and never ever did is that everything that has ever happened or been “done” in my life was done by no-one. That’s quite a shock, but also a relief in a way!! Everything has worked perfectly all by itself, for millions of reasons, most of which “me” knew nothing about!!

So every decision, intention, choice or appearance of intention or control just happened. It is only after the event, in thought, that a “self” rationale is added, “Oh I did that”, “I made a good/bad decision”, “I’m glad a chose that one”.
So in my experience, life is constantly happening, things appear, thoughts arise and things get done. It never stops. There is always something arising, being experienced.

Just waking up in the morning, thoughts arise about what needs to be done – uninvited! “I” didn’t think the thoughts. “I” didn’t create the thoughts. They just appear. So then, in reaction to the content of a thought (“I need to buy that thing”), there might be a decision thought to go to the shops – “Ok, I’ll go to the shops at 10am” and then “Oooh, I’m hungry” thought and going downstairs to the kitchen happens and something gets eaten. The phone gets picked up and emails or messages are read, which results in more thoughts arising and replies being typed and sent or an image or video being shown to my wife. All of this activity is just going on, happening, with a running parade of thoughts, some related, others not. At no point is an actual decision made by a decider or a choice made by a chooser. Its just a continuous flow of experiences arising, mostly starting with thoughts from nowhere or something else happening, like an email arriving on the phone or a knock on the door.

Before seeing through “self”, it was believed that it must be “me” (inside here somewhere!!) that is doing these things, making the decisions, deciding to think about certain things. The one who is in control, deciding what is going to happen next. The problem is, that is a false claim by no-one, no thing, a non-entity, who can’t be doing any of it, because it doesn’t exist. At first this seems confusing, because there is such a strong belief in being in control, of making decisions, that there is the fear that if “I” just let go or don’t “do”, it will all fall apart, but of course it doesn’t. Because in fact, “you” never did anything in the first place and life happened as it did and carries on as it always did. Enjoy the ride!!

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

My life story includes the elements and conditioning of being a husband, a father, a son, a brother and someone who works to earn money. That story involves thoughts and actions that arise through living every day life and conditioning in relation to each of those elements or themes and to the lives of other people. Much of that thought and action therefore revolves around providing for, caring for and being responsible for particular people, close family members, plus other people interacted with more generally in daily life. Much of that can be labelled as “responsibility” for, but in fact simply arose as thoughts and actions over time that resulted in others being looked after, paid for, fed, educated, loved etc. These activities could be described as “I am responsible for her”, “I did that to look after her”, but the addition of an “I” entity who did it isn’t true or necessary. Those actions got done, took place as required, for all sorts of relevant life reasons without a doer or anyone being responsible.

6) Anything to add?

I would just like to add that the LU process of pointing is very effective, because what is pointed at is really the very last place anyone thinks to look!! So the looking was a big step forward to seeing through the problem of a false belief in a separate “me” entity. However, another big step for me was being guided into seeing the huge role thoughts play in distorting raw experience itself. In my case this came down to a residual hidden belief in a “looker”. Despite lots of looking and diligent pointing by Vivien, there was a remaining hidden assumption, created by unquestioned thought concepts or ideas, that “I” was the one looking out, having the experience. Even feeling like “I” was inside the head, behind the eyes!! Vivien spotted this lurking tricky thought structure where an “I” was still hiding and she sent me just the right pointers to break it down.

So, I would say that it is important to realise that belief in the content of thoughts can be very tricky and hard to see in action and those can stand in the way or even alter what is believed to be raw experience, even in the looking.

Thank you, Vivien.

Hi Ian,

Thank you for your responses. I am going to ask other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien

Hi Ian,

Sorry for making you wait.

Other guides have no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

You can contact me at any time if you have any questions via private message here on the forum, or via Facebook if you decide to join our groups there.

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Thank you very much to you too! It has been a very valuable journey. There is so much relief to now see and know why so much time was wasted seeking in the wrong direction! But I guess that's what happened anyway!

The result is that even the urge or any interest in seeking has fallen away completely. I guess it's like the Santa thing, when the "self" and all its games are seen through, there is no doubting the change.

The pure looking into experience and reporting only exactly what is experienced was a big first step, but where your help was huge was in becoming aware of how much belief was being placed in thoughts - the thought "tricks" as you called it. When it was seen how much that was distorting raw experience, that was a big moment of insight. And you spotted it for me because you saw how much I was in my head and concepts.

So big change here, thank you. Thoughts are experienced but aren't believed so much now, and as a result everything just flows more easily.

The other big change which I had never appreciated was the fact that the belief in "self" (thanks to thoughts!) was what actually creates separation and blocks the experience of oneness. Without "self locating" thoughts, there is just the direct experience of everything and it is so obvious and strong and so simple. It's like coming out of a dream or the lights going on! It really is right in front of us all the time!! And as I said, weirdly everything seems more vivid, more colourful.

So thank you very much indeed, Vivien. You are a very skilled guide and I am very grateful to you. I look forward to joining the LU community to share with others.

Lots of love
Ian

Hi Ian,

The other big change which I had never appreciated was the fact that the belief in "self" (thanks to thoughts!) was what actually creates separation and blocks the experience of oneness.

Exactly! Thoughts and the ability to conceptualize everything is the cause for the illusion.

It was a real pleasure to converse with you. Actually, I've learned an important thing from you. At the beginning I almost believed that you'd already seen through the self. But I've learned that it doesn't matter how beautiful description one gives (what you did), if the person insists that something is missing, that something is not clear, then it is so, and I have to listen to that.

All the best,
Vivien