The Gate

Dear Vivien,

Is there anything that is not super clear and you would like to look at?

How long until the habit of seeing oneself as separate totally dissipates? It still creeps up sometimes until investigated—
If more questions arise later is there a way to contact you if that’s ok?
(There are questions about psychotherapy from a no-self perspective, but that is perhaps a separate discussion.)

What changed and what hasn’t changed since the start of this conversations?

What has changed is the undeniability of no separate individual self, of realizing there is only experience.
Also, seeing thoughts for what they are including seeing false beliefs & the illusions that can be perpetuated by them—

What hasn’t changed is that life still has all of the elements it did before— kids, eating, going to sleep waking up, bills...

Would you say with a 100% certainty that it’s clearly seen experientially (and not just understood intellectually) that there is no separate self and never was?

Yes.

Is there any doubt, even just a slightest?

No. But patterns of thought have not completely shifted—


Thank you Vivien ♥️
Jenny

Hi Jenny,

How long until the habit of seeing oneself as separate totally dissipates?

Let’s look into this. Next time when this seeming separation arise, investigate this:

What is it that is seeing itself as separate?
Can you tell what this separate self is separate from?
Where is the line that divides this I from the whole?
Where is the container that this separate self/I is being held in?
Is there someone being inside the body, if so, where?
And when there is a seeming separation, how do you know that it’s a feeling of separation? What is giving the information about separation?

If more questions arise later is there a way to contact you if that’s ok?

Yes, you can.
But we don’t have to stop our conversation yet :) we can go on as long as you feel the need.

(There are questions about psychotherapy from a no-self perspective, but that is perhaps a separate discussion.)

We can talk about it here too. If there is something, please share.

No. But patterns of thought have not completely shifted—

What patters would you expect to shift? And how? And into what? Please give examples, so we can have a look.

Vivien

Hello Vivien—

How long until the habit of seeing oneself as separate totally dissipates?

Let’s look into this. Next time when this seeming separation arise, investigate this:

What is it that is seeing itself as separate?

A thought of separation— There is just no “what” to be found seeing itself as separate. The thought appears then disappears...

Can you tell what this separate self is separate from?

Upon looking, no... No.

Where is the line that divides this I from the whole?

Wow— this question is powerful... there is no dividing line.

Where is the container that this separate self/I is being held in?

Another helpful question— there is no container. None.

Is there someone being inside the body, if so, where?

There is no one being inside this body— there is no being!

And when there is a seeming separation, how do you know that it’s a feeling of separation?

I’m realizing it is a thought of separation—-seems so much more clear now...it was only a thought.

What is giving the information about separation?

It’s thoughts about thoughts about thoughts. Starting with a thought of irritation, then a thought of justification for the irritation, then a thought of needing separation from the person who is thought to be source of irritation. Wow.

What patters would you expect to shift? And how? And into what? Please give examples, so we can have a look.

More expectations being unearthed... I realize an expectation to not fall under the spell of thoughts of a separate “I” ever again. Those thoughts appear in the form of “shoulds” and “should nots” in various ways. “I” shouldn’t feel this or that. I’m seeing those are just thoughts. I can see All thoughts that arise are also just part of the experience and nothing else needs to be “done” about them by a non-existent do-er. Wow—

Thank you♥️

Hi Jenny,

I realize an expectation to not fall under the spell of thoughts of a separate “I” ever again.

And what is it exactly that could fall under the spell of thoughts of separate I?

Is there a person outside of the story about I?

Is there someone that thoughts are happening to, and has to watch out not to believe in the I-thought ever again?

What is believing in the I-thought? What is it that is on a watch out for the I-thought?

Vivien

Vivien,

I realize an expectation to not fall under the spell of thoughts of a separate “I” ever again.

And what is it exactly that could fall under the spell of thoughts of separate I?

Nothing. Thoughts are the expectation—Familiar Thoughts of an illusory non-existent “I” appearing.

Is there a person outside of the story about I?

No— no person exists inside or outside. Sensations exist, thought appears & says “I”.

Is there someone that thoughts are happening to, and has to watch out not to believe in the I-thought ever again?

No— no. No someone else is found. Sensations just arise, appear... nothing to watch out for or fear... “watching” is a thought, fear is a thought/sensation.

What is believing in the I-thought? What is it that is on a watch out for the I-thought?

Ha— nothing... thoughts appear— thoughts disappear...
Sensations happen, appear & disappear. Realizing that thoughts will keep appearing...

Thank you,
Jenny

Vivien—
After the last post, some feelings of slight discomfort were noticed while trying to have s a private moment in the midst of my kids wanting my attention for various seemingly endless reasons, and the thought appeared, “This is it! This is it! This is all there is! No self improvement needed for no self— no struggle for a ‘better’ less annoying moment— There is no self & this is it!”. Meaning this moment, this experience is all there is. Just this moment. This is it!

The discomfort before that moment has been a slight but constant dissatisfaction, resistance, that just released and my mouth did not stop smiling for a good few hours. This is it! Sounds so simple. But true. No me here, you there, better me then, concerned about this and that future and past. Just now— this is it!

♥️Jenny

Hi Jenny,

There is no self & this is it!”. Meaning this moment, this experience is all there is. Just this moment. This is it!

Yes, beautiful :)

Is there anything that you would like to look at?

Would you like to wait a few days to see if anything comes up, or you feel ready for some final questions?

Vivien

Vivien—
Please send the questions.

Thank you! ♥️

Hi Jenny,

Please answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Vivien—
In keeping with our agreements, I (“I”?) am still working on the questions and will get you the response tomorrow.
Thank you!
Jenny

All right. Thank you for letting me know.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

Dear Vivien—
The Questions! Woohoo 🎉

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Through investigation there is no separate “self, me, I” to be found— Only thoughts/beliefs of a separate identity are found that dissipate with questioning and looking. There is not and never has been a separate self. When thoughts appear with the “me” identity they just evaporate, disappear when investigated.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of a separate self is simply a thought— just further thoughts about thoughts about thoughts/beliefs/concepts.
I don’t know when exactly it starts so the following are thoughts/theories not based in present experience, but here goes: a separate identity seems to begin when labeling begins of what appears to be objects— even before verbal speech— I taught “my” children words (labels) in sign language before they could verbalize words in an attempt to help them communicate their wants and needs. An illusory independent identity seems pretty entrenched by about age 2 when “me! mine!” is flaring on full display! Everyone around us perpetuates the illusion which keeps it unchecked, and the thoughts continue of an illusory “I”.
The illusory self is the separate “doer” that has control, an identity and does things. But these are only thoughts— Thoughts that cause a lot of suffering.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

At first there were feelings of disorientation—“Everything “I” ever thought about “myself” is an illusion?!” And yes, yes is the answer to that. Disappointment also came up that there wasn’t a more transcendent moment of aha-ness that would last.
Then, after a whole night of very little sleep, labeling every thought as a thought, the next day with my kids needing my attention, I realized, “This is it. This is it! There is nothing other than this moment right now. Everything else is a thought...past, future, shoulds, shouldn’ts....This is it!”
It felt like something broke loose & there was a feeling of acceptance and freedom and effortlessness. The other difference from before this dialog is a beautiful sense of clarity about the reality of simple experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

It was a more gradual process than a single aha— but these questions were very helpful:
Where is the line that divides this “I” from the whole?
Is there a separate experiencer experiencing the present moment?
With these questions the illusory thoughts really dissipated.

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work?
Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

These things are all thoughts based on an illusory decider, intender, chooser, controller. These things simply don’t exist. There is no separate decider, intender, chooser, controller making separate independent choices from a separate “I”. There is just happening.
For example, the thought arises that I should go to bed. Then other unrelated thoughts arise like checking e-mail etc. Then the body somehow starts to move toward the bathroom, brushing teeth happens, flossing happens, face washing... then into bed, all with no chooser— it all simply happens!
Everything simply happens — this body ages, children grow, trees turn green in the spring, oceans move with waves....

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

It’s an odd thing, but responsibility just happens. There is no self to take responsibility for an object of any sort, including children. But caring for them just happens each moment—
There is more of a flow with it now... the capacity for this body to care for others is less clouded by “I”ness if that makes sense.
The “This is it!” moment brought less of getting caught in thoughts and more simply experiencing what is— What always and perpetually just is. This is it!!

6) Anything to add?

This realizing of no self feels like a beginning.
Thank you so very much Vivien— thank you♥️

Hi Jenny,

Thank you Jenny for answering the questions. I am going to get other guides to have a look at the thread to ensure that I have covered everything and that my pointing has been clear. This may take a few days. Sometimes, not always, the other guides may have further questions which I will bring to you.

Vivien

Hi Jenny,

There are no further questions for you. It has been a pleasure to explore the concept of the separate self with you. Thank you for being open and willing to look.

Keep an eye out for an email notification notifying you of a PM (private message) from the forum inviting you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook. If you don't receive an email notification, you can access your PM's from the forum once you have logged in. The PM also details other resources available to you.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of there being no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

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Vivien