Who is getting lost in the sauce?

[Z23]

Yes. I would say I have seen through the illusion of a separate entity called self. There is nothing to point to.

Having seen this are there useful next steps to take? Is it possible to lose this perspective? Is there value in continual inquiry into the mechanics of thinking, how the illusion is sustained?

Thanks for your ongoing guidance,

Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)

Having seen this are there useful next steps to take? Is it possible to lose this perspective? Is there value in continual inquiry into the mechanics of thinking, how the illusion is sustained?

Thanks. We could go into them as long as they are your concern, and before that,
I'd like you to try a set of questions that are asked at the end of every dialogue.


Would you like to try that?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Z23]

Yes I would very much like to try and do that.

Thanks,
Christian

[Bananafish]

Here you go. Enjoy! :)


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?


Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Z23]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, and there never has been. The subject "self" doesn't exist in thought or outside of it.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It arises from the process of converting sensory data into language. Some of that sensory data is the subjective experience of thinking and memory... and also that the experience of thinking and memory are unique to "my" brain. A subject (thought/thinking) creates the illusion of an object "thinker" I don't know why language uses subject object structure, but my guess is that it functions to distinguish the source of the sensory data. The repetition of this illusion reinforces it's realness through conditioning. Details and characteristics are filled in. Thoughts about how "thoughts" and feelings originate from this illusion occur with great repetition and reinforce the realness of the illusion as well. The illusion of separate self is sustained by the process of retroactively labeling experience to understand and communicate the world. It appears and disappears as/with thinking.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There's a huge sense of relief in seeing this. It is no longer seems necessary to engage in behaviors for the sake of maintaining this illusion. There also seems to be less involuntary physiological reaction to thinking, and there is also less rumination. Thinking and interacting with the world also automatically seems to reflect this insight. My business partners and I are doing some major renovations. Prior to seeing, when "I" would approach a problem the thinking would be "How do I do this? How would I think about this if I was a carpenter?"

Now the thinking looks more like this "How is this done, what's the best way to think about this?"

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

When you asked

"Are thoughts and self different?"

it started the domino effect
When you asked

"how do you perceive a subject "self" thinking thoughts?"

When examined it became evident that there wasn't observation of thought. Just thoughts about observing thoughts. Seeing that there was no observation of thoughts pierced the illusion.

Writing this is accompanied by a deep feeling of certainty.

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

This part is a little bit weirder. When I did the experiment early in our dialogue the leg moved without any connection to a decision in thinking...but it did move. The organism "christian" didn't exactly "choose" to move it's leg, but responded to stimulus. The illusion of choice occurred retroactively.

I don't know what makes things happen, but things do happen. I don't know how it works, but knowledge isn't required for it to work. It just "works"...

There are patterns that occur in nature which nothing is separate from. Plants grow, fire burns, life lives. A rose isn't responsible for it's flowering...a rose just flowers under the correct conditions. "I" am not separate from this nature, and will also continue to follow these patterns. *which at this point involves thinking, paying taxes, folding clothes, cooking dinner* These things will appear choices retroactively, and there will be effort exerted both with gross physical tasks and the focus and attention that is required to sustain them. These patterns emerge from and are controlled by physical laws

Thanks,

Christian

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)


Thank you for the beautiful answers. :)


I'll forward our dialogue to other guides, so that they can ask
questions about it, if any. This may take for a while, so please enjoy life
during it.


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Bananafish]

Hi Christian. :)


How are things going?
Please let me know if any issues pop out.


Also, please send me a friend request on Facebook, if you happen to
have an account. Here is the link.

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100008698927962


Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Z23]

Hey Kento!

Will do, and thank you for your time and guidance!

Buoyantly,
Christian