Time to Jump!

[Riverwind]

Hi again Bananafish : - )

It is, literally, about looking and seeing that there is no concrete entity separate
from everything else.

"literally, about looking and seeing" means via the sensory input, no?
Is that what you meant?
So I tried to look for me/I/self via the senses and obviously didn't find one.

But is information from the senses the only measure to what exists in reality?
We can infer about gravity from seeing an apple falling from the tree.
But from what can we infer that there is a separate self?
I could not find any evidence that supports this idea - one that is not just because (almost) everybody thinks like that...

Thank you very much!

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

However, when I look at it again now, it seems like I was deluding myself and it is actually a subtle sensation that serves as a false reference point.

Great that you noticed this by observation! It there a "reference point" at all?
Please point to any reference point, and observe what is there.


Best wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

I was trying to point to a reference point.
All I could come up with were different sensations.
Example: One, so called, reference point, was just the focusing less on awareness to the space in front of the body and more on the space on the sides of the body.
It was not a real reference point, just another area attention momentarily reside in.

So I asked (and tried to observe): OK where is this "awareness to the space on the side of the body" experienced from?
I could not find a place where it was seen from.

Thank you very much!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)


How does it feel to see it? Any confusion or doubt remaining?
How is "self" seen and felt now?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

How does it feel to see it? Like loosing something. These false reference points gave a feeling of confidence and reassurance. Yesterday I thought (like complaining) “but I feel like nobody”. Cannot get a hold on something. ..

Confusion and doubts? Sure. But harder to put my finger on it because it sleeps away...

But let’s see. Yesterday I thought: let’s see if I can find anyone thinking these thoughts or deciding what to think or doing the thoughts. No. But how about someone that the thoughts happen to? Yes. There is that sensation. Ok let’s look at that someone who experience or see . Can this experiencer be experienced? Can this see-er be seen? Hmmm.. it’s just another sensation; just another false reference point then....

So at the moment there is nothing to hold on to as a self/reference point.

Thank you very much!

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)


Please tell more about how you are feeling now.
Do you feel your understanding a visceral one, or is it rather intellectual?


Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish

Please tell more about how you are feeling now.
Do you feel your understanding a visceral one, or is it rather intellectual?

I am not sure if this is more visceral or intellectual, So I will just describe what was happening today.

The way it went today was that when looking for it I could not find an I / reference point, only sensations.

Here, I try now again: Can I find an I /me here and now?
Here is whats happening: Attention starts to move around, looking/searching. First it finds only sensations.
Then, ahh, here I am, I am the one looking at the sensations...looking again and seeing that this is also just a momentary fixation on a complex sensation.
What is left, then? Ok, here is something - when releasing the attention after focusing on a sensation there is a moment that sensations are there without trying to sense them...But could that be the real I?   seems unlikely, as it doesn't have any characteristics of something personal except that the sensations are here and not there where my wife is standing...

More about today..
Things were just happening. Thoughts, including the I / me thoughts, sensations, actions... but there was no conflict.
Until, some emotion or thought came up that caused resistance and feeling of stress in the system.
Suddenly in order to relieve that sensation there was again looking/searching etc. 
Looking for a reference point that I could relate to as myself, and from that point of view, creating distance from the issue, so I can start to analyze it and control it. (this is the habitual pattern, I was used to).

But, again and again, every such reference point was seen as a sensation/fixation so I could not have used it. Therefore, at that moment, there was a release of the attention searching/looking. 
The tension/conflict was allowed to be there and it somehow resolved, or by turning into an action, to understanding or just dissolving after a while. 

Some of the times this process felt more automatic and other times there were more thoughts involved (ex: ahh, here is this observer again..no, look, its just a sensation).

Thank you very much!!
Riverwind

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

Would you say it is crystal clear that there is no entity called self
which is concrete and separate from everything else?

If not, what do you feel is hindering that clarity?

Warm wishes,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Would you say it is crystal clear that there is no entity called self
which is concrete and separate from everything else?

If not, what do you feel is hindering that clarity?

Hi Bananafish,

At the moment it doesn't feel that clear. Actually quite the opposite. 

"...entity called self
which is concrete and separate from everything else"?
Well, I cannot find an entity called self but the sense of I/me..that's another story. 

OK, when looking for it, mostly I cannot find it.
But sometimes I feel "me" - certain sensations that strongly feel like me. 
And even if I tell myself: "look, this is just a sensation..." , it doesn't change this feeling that this is indeed me.

Then, othertimes during an action or a thought, I definitely feel that there is an I/me that is part of that action/thought.
Not separate from the thought or action but a part of the action (the way that breathing happen during running -it is felt, it is not the running but it is somehow part of it).

The thing is that when paying full attention to the looking/searching the perspective usually changes.
But when involved in other actions and thoughts it is often like I am more identifed with the I/self than ever.
Like yesterday, there were maybe two hours that I was completely lost in thought about future, about how I feel about my relationship and what's not.... During those 2 hours there was a complete identification with the I / me thoughts.

Then, there were maybe two moments today that it was Crystal clear that there is no seprate self. Like, a minute ago I was looking in the mirror and there was a very strong (uncomfortable) sensation that there is nobody here its just like another image..

Another note: I have a long time experience that when wanting something or expecting something there is a tendency to experience the things that way. So I am not entirely sure that everything I see when observing is not influenced by my expectations or wishes. (Like, I wish to see that there is no separate self than I ignore certain experiences and emphasize other(s.

so at this moment in time, it certainly is not clear that there is no separate self...there are "mixed results" and as you can probably see from this post, quite a bit of confusion.


Thank you very much!

[Bananafish]

Hi again. :)

But sometimes I feel "me" - certain sensations that strongly feel like me.
And even if I tell myself: "look, this is just a sensation..." , it doesn't change this feeling that this is indeed me.

There appears to be certain things to be clarified here. :) Convincing yourself of no-self
doesn't equal the visceral understanding of it. And also, you seem to be trying to change the sensations
related to "me" into something else, which, as your result shows, won't work.


A lot of times when one just says "there is no me," or "this is just A," that is an excuse for not
having a direct look at disturbing feelings, and that is really one of the seeds of suffering.
It is crucial to face feelings as they are, without you trying to manipulate it.


Above said, let's have a look at that particular sensation that relates to the thought "me."
What kind of sensation is it, and how is it different from other sensations?


Please don't automatically say that they aren't different.
Be truly honest with yourself, and please don't try to satisfy me with your answers.
Try not to give the answers you think you are expected to give, ok?


Let's give it a try!


Warmly,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Above said, let's have a look at that particular sensation that relates to the thought "me."
What kind of sensation is it, and how is it different from other sensations

Hi Bananafish,
Thank you very much for your reply.
I’m trying my best to be honest, so your feedback is very helpful.

The sensation that relates to the thought “me” is felt in the area of the chest/heart.
Once sensed it kinds of spreads to other parts of the body.

Yes, it’s a particular feeling. It feels like excitement and is often associated with emotions like pride.
Though in can be associated with unpleasant situation there is something pleasant, even addictive to these sensations of excitement.

It also feels “personal”! Unlike other sensations.

Thank you very much!

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

I was feeling kind of stuck today with the looking.
So I opened the app and read the part about a university not actually existing, just the building, people and people’s thinking etc.

Then, opened a “random” conversation in the Gateless gatecrashers. It was the same analogy just about a school. Hmmm.. ok.

Opened another, and it was about discerning real from fiction : the table is real, the light is real thinking is real, sensations are real Batman is fiction, Riverwind is fiction...(Somehow the word fiction is clearer than saying “it’s not real“)
So I tried it a few times and got a good feel of the difference in experiencing something real vs. something fictional.
I really enjoyed this and felt that I want more of it, so probably will repeat it tomorrow..especially with the concepts of I/me.

Was also nice to check if thoughts are real or fiction? Found out that in direct looking there is only this thought now that says: “thoughts”.
so thoughts are fiction. Just this thought is real. This is something I’ve heard before and didn’t understand but now it seems very clear.

Really cool stuff and I think/hope it might help me see more clearly that a separate self is fiction...

Thank you very much!

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)

The sensation that relates to the thought “me” is felt in the area of the chest/heart.
Once sensed it kinds of spreads to other parts of the body.

Yes, it’s a particular feeling. It feels like excitement and is often associated with emotions like pride.
Though in can be associated with unpleasant situation there is something pleasant, even addictive to these sensations of excitement.

Is that sensation "me" itself? Is that sensation yourself?
What suggests the connection, and how?


Warm regards,

Bananafish

[Riverwind]

Hi Bananafish,

I think that the sensation me, cannot be me/myself. After all it comes and goes. It is also dependent on the thought “me” or thought that imply “me”.
However once invoked by the thought me/related ones, it feels strongly/completely like me/myself.

“What suggests the connection?”
Sorry, I don’t understand this question,
Which connection are you referring to?

If you mean connection between me and the sensation of me, it suggests that there is a me all the time but it is sensed just sometimes?

Thank you very much!

[Bananafish]

Hi Riverwind. :)


Ok, you say "I think ..." but what if you drop all the thinking?
Who are you, when you don't think about who you are?

If you mean connection between me and the sensation of me, it suggests that there is a me all the time but it is sensed just sometimes?

Yes I mean that, although this time I couldn't clearly understand what you wrote.
Could you elaborate, please?



Best wishes,

Bananafish