I need help to see again and again.

[flowings]

Hi Gemma!
If you don't mind, I'd like to let another guide continue. I have a little trouble finding the right approach. JonathanR would step in.

[JonathanR]

Hello Gemma,

My name is Jon and I'm here to point for you in place of Flowings.

I read your whole conversation with interest and several things struck me. May I ask you some questions please?

You said:

. So it's actually more accurate to say that my experience has led me to know the truth of the statement ie, I have and do continue to know that there is no real inherent self

Great. You mention experience. Can you say how it's seen that there's no self? If you had to put it in a short sentence?

In terms of experience of life can you give a few examples of how this shows its self?

. It is when a deeper trigger or wound comes up in me that it takes a lot longer to realise the illusion of self. So rather than it being an instant remembering and then a dispersing of thoughts , followed by relaxation, the realisation of the illusion is delayed

Does this feel or seem wrong? If so, how?

Best wishes

Jon

[GemmaSue]

Hello Jon :)

Thanks for contacting, I'll drive right in.

Great. You mention experience. Can you say how it's seen that there's no self? If you had to put it in a short sentence?

In terms of experience of life can you give a few examples of how this shows its self?

It seem there is no self when I look at where thought, feeling and sensation arrise from. The answer is I don't know, but what I do know is that I'm aware of them. Therefor all that is left to experience is awareness itself.

Does this feel or seem wrong? If so, how?

It doesn't SEEM wrong when I look. It FEELS wrong at the time because self is in the driving seat when deeper triggers are touched on. There is a desire in me to harmonise ever more with my experience of awareness and so I hope in time I will be able to shift self from the drivers seat much quicker.

I am also aware that my desire for quicker release from my triggers is an identification to self in of itself. Haha. And so the paradox continues......

[JonathanR]

Hi Gemma.

. It seem there is no self when I look at where thought, feeling and sensation arrise from. The answer is I don't know, but what I do know is that I'm aware of them. Therefor all that is left to experience is awareness itself

OK. What about the experience of, let's say, a red cup?

What is redness experienced by?

Is there an experience of awareness experiencing redness? Or is there just experie ncing redness? Take a look. Find some coloured object and try this for real and find out.

. I am also aware that my desire for quicker release from my triggers is an identification to self in of itself. Haha. And so the paradox continues......

What if that's just it? A paradox?

It's noticed that identification like this happens.

Is, there any choice about when 'reawakening' occurs? (from identification).

Is there any choice or control over 'falling asleep' (identification).

Who or what experiences identification?

All the best,

Jon

[GemmaSue]

What is redness experienced by?

Is there an experience of awareness experiencing redness? Or is there just experie ncing redness? Take a look. Find some coloured object and try this for real and find out

I don't know how a color can experience anything, maybe it does.

There isnt just only an experience of redness. There is an awareness of the experience of redness and there is an awareness of the awareness of the experience of redness - and that can continue on and on.

What if that's just it? A paradox?

It's noticed that identification like this happens.

Is, there any choice about when 'reawakening' occurs? (from identification).

Is there any choice or control over 'falling asleep' (identification).

Who or what experiences identification?

Well when you ask the direct question, I would need to say no. No there isn't any choice, it just happens, it all just happens!

To answer who or what experiences identification-- I have absolutely no idea. I don't know where thought, feelings or sensations come from.

Awareness is all I have to go on here. I am awear that it is all happening, but why its all happening, I don't know.

[JonathanR]

Hi Gemma

. I don't know how a color can experience anything, maybe it does.

I didn't ask if that is what goes on. I was really asking you to examine 'your' experience of colour. To put it another way, is the redness separate from the experiencing of it?

. There isnt just only an experience of redness. There is an awareness of the experience of redness

Is that awareness separate in any way from the experience of redness? Please check

Don't answer from thinking about it. Find a colour and check it out for real.

. Well when you ask the direct question, I would need to say no. No there isn't any choice, it just happens, it all just happens!

This should be how we tend to ask questions here, so we check out what's really happening. This is important because it cuts through any background assumptions, including learned ideas that may not ne essarily be 'true'.

. To answer who or what experiences identification-- I have absolutely no idea. I don't know where thought, feelings or sensations come from.

That's rather beautiful. What if its just thoughts? No entity at all, no separate 'person' but just thoughts and sensations... A projected movie of a 'poor me'?

Thank you

Jon

[GemmaSue]

To put it another way, is the redness separate from the experiencing of it?

Nope it is all part of the experience.

is that awareness separate in any way from the experience of redness? Please check

Not when I follow the pointing its not. But there is an expansivness in the awareness of seeing the experience of red - but still there is no seperation, only more awareness.

That's rather beautiful. What if its just thoughts? No entity at all, no separate 'person' but just thoughts and sensations... A projected movie of a 'poor me'

Yes indeed I have seen this to be true, a projected movie of a 'poor me' and a 'happy me' and a 'jealous me' and a hurt me...... Etc

[JonathanR]

Hi Gemma

. is that awareness separate in any way from the experience of redness? Please check...
Not when I follow the pointing its not. But there is an expansivness in the awareness of seeing the experience of red -

OK. So awareness is not separate from the experience of redness.

Please find an opportunity to go for a walk. In the countryside or by the sea or in a park. Somewhere where everything is alive, weather, sky, grass, trees, animals, birds, sounds, people, and feelings, sensations, thoughts... All going on. Just relax and notice.

Now. Look for a line or edge between a 'you' and everything that is going on in experience.

Can such a line be found?

All the best

Jon

[GemmaSue]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for the exorsise, I love being in nature.

Now. Look for a line or edge between a 'you' and everything that is going on in experience.

Can such a line be found?

There is no line, no seperation. At no point do I find a beginning or end. It doesn't matter if I'm having a more expansive experience in nature or if I'm doing something rather boring, like staring at a red cup. There is no seperation to be found.

[JonathanR]

Hi Gemma

. It doesn't matter if I'm having a more expansive experience in nature or if I'm doing something rather boring, like staring at a red cup. There is no seperation to be found.

Good (about nature) and no separation. But did you feel bored about the colour experiment with red cup? Was there impatience with it? If so please let me know what was going on?

Returning to your starting thread about frustration with the 'self' - identification that seems to happen, do you find or see any reason why these times should not be happening?

Who, or what, are they happening to?

Since self is an illusion, how could that imagined identity do anything to prevent these times?

Is it possible to prevent 'waking up' again from these periods of identification?

Do 'you' make that waking up happen?


Love

Jon

[GemmaSue]

But did you feel bored about the colour experiment with red cup? Was there impatience with it? If so please let me know what was going on?

There was no impatience, mearly an observation of how boring I found the exercise compared to the nature exercise. Regardless however there is no seperation in either to be found. So in a sense at a fundamental looking and pointing level both experiences felt the same. But identification with the exercises found one to be boring and the other to be expansivness.

Returning to your starting thread about frustration with the 'self' - identification that seems to happen, do you find or see any reason why these times should not be happening?

Who, or what, are they happening to?

Since self is an illusion, how could that imagined identity do anything to prevent these times?

Is it possible to prevent 'waking up' again from these periods of identification?

Do 'you' make that waking up happen?

No, I like identify with self for certain things, like natute and food and sex etc..... But I do not experience them without remembering that it is an illusion. So I guess if all the easy times of identification are fine to be happening, then all the contracted times I'm experiencing identification should be fine to happen also. And how quickly I come to the realisation that it is all but an illusion can also happen in its own time without any acceptable time period being attached to it.

Sounds great to me.... ;)

Thanks for the love Jon.... Right back at ya!

[JonathanR]

Hi Gemma,

. So I guess if all the easy times of identification are fine to be happening, then all the contracted times I'm experiencing identification should be fine to happen also. And how quickly I come to the realisation that it is all but an illusion can also happen in its own time without any acceptable time period being attached to it

How does that seem to you? Does looking at these questions address the way you felt at the start of our chat?

Do you have any illusions about 'control', 'choice' or 'decision'? If so we can look at these.


Love

Jon

[GemmaSue]

How does that seem to you? Does looking at these questions address the way you felt at the start of our chat?

It sure help Jon! :)

Do you have any illusions about 'control', 'choice' or 'decision'? If so we can look at these.

So ill tell you how I see and experience this and you can bring curiosity if you feel it's needed.

From my enquiry I've cone to understand that I have absolutely no idea where thought comes from. Knowing this has left me realising that if I don't know where thought come from then there isnt anyone making a decision. There's no one doing.

It's the biggest best and yet most annoying mystery of all!

[JonathanR]

Hi Gemma,

. It's the biggest best and yet most annoying mystery of all!

Ha ha! Yes.. Absolutely :-}

But maybe it would be a good idea to notice these moments of annoyance and investigate them a bit? I did this and still do
sometimes.

interacting with an annoying family member (ha ha) or work colleague is a great place to start. Do you recognise the scenario whereby self-identification happens during these irritating times? Later it's like suddenly waking up from a dream in which 'someone' completely believed in 'their own' anger.( And it's not as if the anger isn't felt either, because it is. This is the illusion).

But what's so interesting is to notice right in the middle of feeling annoyed and look right then to see if a self feels angry? Try it a few times.

Have fun ;-)

Love

Jon

[GemmaSue]

Hey Jon,

I actually started practicing this exercise a long while back. It's this work which has led me to release from a lot of conditioning in my life and also momen to moment interactions that can sture up more contracted feelings.

I've been in a relationship for 3 years now, both of us are on the path and so I'm living the letting go and seeing through illusion again and again.

What's been nice to see from this discussion on LU is that seeing through the illusion doesn't mean that, if my interactions aren't perfect all the time, then I'm doing it all wrong.

My reference to the biggest mystery being one of the best and also annoying is incomplete. Although it is annoying, I feel surrendered to the annoyance. I don't need to know the answer, I can just accept the 'don't know space'.