No self

[Juliana]

Dear Nic,

Thank you for your kind email.

Have a look - can you find where they come from and go to?

I have no idea where they come from or go to. They just appear and disappear.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

If I don't go into thoughts I have no idea what is choosing which hand to raise.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

The individual is only in thoughts. When there are no thoughts there is no individual.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

I do not know what is controlling the hand.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Yes, the controller can be located in thought.
Otherwise, no.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

No, the hand just moves.

How is the decision made?

I do not know.



Based on direct experience, without thinking, thoughts just happen to no one. But why do we only examine direct experience? Aren't thoughts part of direct experience? How about deeply ingrained beliefs? Conditioning? That my life should be this way or that way. How do I deal with that?

Yours,
Juliana

[Skygazer74]

Hi,

The individual is only in thoughts. When there are no thoughts there is no individual.

Lets look at thought - is it any different from sense data? The assumption is that when we see, there is a someone seeing, and that when we think there is a thinker, or someone thinking. If you look, can you find anything there?

Based on direct experience, without thinking, thoughts just happen to no one. But why do we only examine direct experience? Aren't thoughts part of direct experience? How about deeply ingrained beliefs? Conditioning? That my life should be this way or that way. How do I deal with that?

Well it gets tricky here, because thoughts do happen in experience, or in awareness, but for the enquiry we need to distinguish between the world made by thought and the world we find in DE. In a way it is not a paradox, although it might seem so.

A lot of the process after the gate involves conditioning, especially the patterns and wounds. For me, it has been a journey of healing after the gate, but the journey is made easier because it is not so identified with, so personal, and the mind is more free. There are forums and resources for this when you go through the gate. Having said that, a lot of thought patterns, and to an extent beliefs, can disappear when you notice that you can shift from thoughts into that bright and clear awareness. So much suffering comes from thought, and just by learning that they are ephemeral and not 'mine,' and to shift into the space around them, a lot of freedom comes in.

How does a belief manifest?
Where does it come from?
What makes it yours?
Can it be found in DE?
Can you find a believer of a belief?
Do you know what I mean when I describe a shift from thought into pure awareness?

Best wishes,

Nic

[Juliana]

Dear Nic,

If you look, can you find anything there?

No, there is just looking.

How does a belief manifest?

Belief manifests the same as thought does.
It just appears out of nowhere.

Where does it come from?

Belief comes from conditioning.

What makes it yours?

Appropriating it as mine.

Can it be found in DE?

No, because in DE there is only what is.

Can you find a believer of a belief?

Not in DE.

Do you know what I mean when I describe a shift from thought into pure awareness?

Absolutely. Pure awareness is DE. This is actually what is. Thoughts are just a story.



I totally agree with what you wrote. Since I have been going through some rough times, I noticed, when I am just in DE, I am okay, even though the things are "not okay" in my life. Actually, it is the mind that says it is not okay, that it should be different. I think the answer is to just stay in awareness. Now is undoing time. HA HA

With kindness,

Juliana

[Skygazer74]

Hi Juliana,

Actually, it is the mind that says it is not okay, that it should be different. I think the answer is to just stay in awareness. Now is undoing time. HA HA

Exactly. My sense is that awakening is moving from the mind that thought fills to the mind that is wide open (Rigpa) I picked up a teaching which might be useful to you - that thought is energy, and energy has to go somewhere. So unchecked it perpetuates more thought, but you can use its energy to feed the energy of awareness. It is as if you open thought into awareness, open out, and if the thought has weight, you can almost sense awareness brighten. This is a bit off topic, and was all post gate exploration.

I am still not quite sure if you have gone through to be honest! How do you feel? There may be something about thought still or belief?

With thoughts, whether random or thoughts which contain a belief, we have established the absence of a thinker. How about what they refer to?

When we look very closely and precisely we come to see that “me” thoughts only refer to other “me” thoughts, not to an actual abiding “me.” Observe thoughts with precision; can you ever find a ‘me’ within the “me” thoughts and feelings, or just a sense of me?

Metta,

Nic

[Juliana]

Dear Nic,
I am out of town for 5 days. Will investigate and write back.
Juliana

[Skygazer74]

Hi Juliana,

I hope you have a lovely break :)


Best wishes,

Nic

[Juliana]

Dear Nic,

I am back.

I am also not sure whether I have gone through or not:) There is just a sense of knowing that there is nothing to go through. Where would I go? And who would be that "I" to go? There is just this immediate moment.

As to thoughts, I do not see how they could really exist. There is nothing solid to them.
There is no me whatsoever, and I cannot find a "me" in the thoughts that don't really exist. Does it make any sense?

Juliana

[Skygazer74]

Hi Juliana,

Well it sounds as if you are clear, so what is it that makes you unsure? Have you noticed a difference in feeling tone in your experience and emotion?

Best wishes,

Nic

[Juliana]

Dear Nic,

Nothing makes me unsure. I am just sinking into this experience.

Love and Light,

Juliana

[Skygazer74]

Hi Juliana,

I am delighted for you, it sounds like our work here is done and it has been a pleasure.

Here are the final questions for you to answer so that you can access the post gate forums and resources:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Best wishes,

Nic

[Juliana]

Dear NIc,

Thanks for your email. Here are my responses:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there is no separate entity. Never was and never will be.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Illusion of separate self arises when I identify with or claim a thought, feeling, emotion, sensation. For example, just sitting happens, then the thought arises, that I am sitting, I am the owner of the action. Sometimes the thought is accompanied by the feeling, emotion, sensation, which solidify the identity even more.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels marvelous. I am much calmer and relaxed. Even when grasping happens then it is seen through.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

When you said just concentrate on direct experience only. That was it.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I am totally not responsible for anything. The world is just unfolding effortlessly the way it does whether or not I want it, with the story of me or without it. I have no say. I do not know how it really works. Well, just sitting in the beach, then swimming, going to sleep, waking up, being thought, etc.

6) Anything to add?

Yes, THANK YOU Nic. Thank you for your directness. I hope we can keep in touch.

[Skygazer74]

Hi Juliana,

It has been a pleasure, and of course we can stay in touch. I have submitted this thread to be approved by other guides and if they have any questions I will let you know.

After that I will PM you with contact details.

Best wishes,

Nic

[Juliana]

Thank you Nic.

[Skygazer74]

Dear Juliana,

You are welcome, and I see the confirmation has come through as you have turned blue! Congratulations and I will PM you with contact details :)

Best wishes,

Nic

[Juliana]

Thank you.