Looking for the Truth

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

After reading the Enlightening Quotes, I understood the word "Separate entity" refers to "a self separate from life" (the belief that the life is something and the self is a separate entity from that). Is that correct? I want to understand the concept, the conventional meaning of the word, so I can use the word correctly.

It’s hard to understand it without seeing it. And to be honest, I don’t want to give you more concepts. No. That would be not just useless for you, but even ‘harmful’, since it can easily become a new belief without seeing it a belief.

And for this reason, I would like to ask you to stop reading the Enlightening Quotes, which are very general, and taken out of context, and are meant to others, not specifically for you. Rather look at the questions what are given specifically to you, again and again throughout the day, repeatedly.

The socks example is very clear. In the case of something you can see with eyes, notice with the ears, nose, tong or a body sensation, I clearly understand how to "look" (directly experience, get the raw data) without thought interpretations involved, but some other cases where I can't use the five senses, like in the above example (questions of "How is the story made, what edits it, is there a narrator?), now I am not sure whether I am doing the "looking" right.

Do you think that something can be experience other than with the five senses?
Is it possible to experience something other than with the 5 senses?

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or it never existed?

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing differ?

Vivien

[LostMe]

Hi Vivien,
Thank you for your advise, Ok, I will not read the Enlightening Quotes and will do repeatedly the specific exercises given to me. I have been doing this inquiry as my highest priority and I give full time (while doing the household stuff) and commitment to it.  When I do something in day to day life, I look by asking questions such as "How did this happen? who did this?" etc and try to search answers from the experiences. That's what I understood as how to look and hope I am doing it correctly. 

Do you think that something can be experience other than with the five senses?

I can't experience any material things without using any of the five senses. But I become aware of thoughts. Is that considered to be experience? I am not knowing thoughts through eye, ear, nose tong or body touch for sure.

Is it possible to experience something other than with the 5 senses?

No, all material things are experienced with the five senses.

Imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine its shape, size, weight, temperature, color. Now keep it there, close your eyes, and feel the imaginary spoon.

Then, open your eyes:
Is there a spoon here, in real life?

No, there was no spoon there in real life, when I opened my eyes

So how did you see that there is no spoon?

with eyes and thoughts

What happened to the spoon?

There wasn't a spoon to happen anything to

Did it disappear or it never existed?

Newer existed.

Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes ... is there a spoon here, in real life?

Yes, there was a real spoon (what we named as such)

Are a visual thought of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same? 

No, they were different; the visual thought was an imagination, the experience of the spoon was experienced through eyes and body (touch sensation)

How does imagining and experiencing differ?

Imagining was brought about by thoughts only. Experience was knowing through eyes and body (in this case)
Thank you.

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

When I do something in day to day life, I look by asking questions such as "How did this happen? who did this?" etc and try to search answers from the experiences.

Yes, that’s good. When you search for an answer, always search/look at experience, and never what thoughts say about it.
This is the distinction what we are doing here.
We are investigating whether what thoughts say about a topic is in line with experience (reality) or not.

I can't experience any material things without using any of the five senses. But I become aware of thoughts. Is that considered to be experience? I am not knowing thoughts through eye, ear, nose tong or body touch for sure.

The presence of a thought is known, yes. Just as when you imagine a spoon, the presence of imagination is known.

However, what the imagination/thoughts is about is just a fantasy.

When the thought of Batman is present, that thought is known. However, the content of that thought, what the thought is about is another matter. The content of a thought doesn’t exist in experience (just as the imagined spoon doesn’t exist in experience).

So with the thought about Batman, the thought is there, but Batman isn’t.
Can you see this clearly?

So can you see that there are only two options:
- EXPERIENCE (touching/feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting, smelling)
- and IMAGINATION (thoughts)?

Or is there a third option? If yes, what could that be?

Vivien

[LostMe]

Thank you Vivien for the explanation. It is becoming clearer. 

When the thought of Batman is present, that thought is known. However, the content of that thought, what the thought is about is another matter. The content of a thought doesn’t exist in experience (just as the imagined spoon doesn’t exist in experience).

So with the thought about Batman, the thought is there, but Batman isn’t.
Can you see this clearly?

Yes, it's clear, just knowing of the thought is a direct experience, but what the thought says is not. What the thought says is an imagination.

So can you see that there are only two options:
- EXPERIENCE (touching/feeling, hearing, smelling, tasting, smelling) 
- and IMAGINATION (thoughts)?

Assuming that options we are talking about is "options for direct knowing", yes, I can see there are only these two options.

Or is there a third option? If yes, what could that be?

No, there are no other options for direct experience. Knowing a concept is either totally imaginary or a combination of imagination and direct experience. 
Thank you.

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

Knowing a concept is either totally imaginary or a combination of imagination and direct experience.

And this is what we are investigating here. We are trying to separate imagination (conceptual thought overlay) from the simplicity of what IS (experience / reality).

Since the illusion is created by the conceptual thought overlay, which is just a fiction, a fantasy ABOUT experience.

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience? That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate raw experience?

Vivien

[LostMe]

Hi Vivien,

Knowing a concept is either totally imaginary or a combination of imagination and direct experience.

And this is what we are investigating here. We are trying to separate imagination (conceptual thought overlay) from the simplicity of what IS (experience / reality).
Since the illusion is created by the conceptual thought overlay, which is just a fiction, a fantasy ABOUT experience.

Do you notice that the ideas that appear as thoughts are not the same as direct sense experience? That they are something extra that is added on to the immediate raw experience?

Yes, I notice it all the time now. Raw experience is inconspicuous and the prominent bulk is what we feel as ideas, feelings, emotions etc. all of which are those added extras to the raw experience. The story of "me" is not about raw experiences, all it contains is conceptual layers. That's why it is a story, an illusion. 
 Thank you for pointing

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.

Look at this several times before replying.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[LostMe]

Hi Vivien,

Hi Grace,
Take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment.
Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all colour.
Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.
And notice that you're not making them happen. You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of.
And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience.
You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it.
You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.
Look at this several times before replying. 
Let me know what you find.

Here is what I found:
When I started looking around for direct experience, all the objects that my head turned towards were experienced as perceived color. Everything in front of the eye was seen without any effort at all. Actually, it was not possible to avoid seeing. Thoughts were not noticeable. In contrast, I experienced lot of thoughts arising when looking at the computer screen and reading the words. What thoughts were saying were not direct experience. Also, noticed that when looking around inside the house there were no thought labeling or stories on what was seen and the seeing was mostly pure experience but when going outside and looking, lot of thoughts become associated with what is directly experienced.


Then closed my eyes and looked for other experiences, vehicles going by were heard and in between mostly the ringing in the ear was perceived. "It was a car", "It is the ringing in the ear" etc were thoughts and not direct experience. I am using those words to explain what was heard using conventional language, but the actual experience is just a sound.With closed eyes more sensations were experienced on the body, mostly on the legs and some in the hands. Some sensations around nostrils. Thoughts arose giving concepts about the experience and I could distinguish them from direct experience, but can't avoid them happening. All happened effortlessly.


I tried to watch experience during eating a meal; All the colors of the objects were experienced. While eating, different smells, tastes and texture to the tongue were experienced. There were thoughts labeling most of the experience as smell of toast, taste of eggs, texture of tomato etc. They were not direct experience but just labels by thoughts. It was hard to see the order of experiences. They were repeatedly experienced effortlessly during eating. In between these, some sounds were experienced.

There was no effort at all to experience any of them. I was not able to make any experience happen or to avoid any experience happening. There was no orchestration done by anybody.

Life would be simpler just with the direct experience and not depending on the thought overlay. Even though I have practiced direct experience (of sensations mainly) in meditation, it didn't occur to use it and not give much value to thought contents in the real life outside of meditation.
Thank you Vivien for the exercise.

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

You did a nice look :)

Look here now. There are colours, sounds, thoughts, sensations, emotion.

What are you in control of right now?

Can you stop colours, sounds, sensations from showing up?
Can you let them to show up?

Is there a self/I in charge of what colours, sounds, sensations are present?
Do they all appear on their own, or a self/I is making them to appear?

Is there a control over ANYTHING?

What do you notice?

Vivien

[LostMe]

Thank you Vivien. 

Look here now. There are colours, sounds, thoughts, sensations, emotion.
What are you in control of right now?

Right now I see what is in front of the eyes, hear sounds, feel the sensations and know the arising thoughts and emotions, but I don't find having any control over any of these.

Can you stop colours, sounds, sensations from showing up? 

If any objects are in the perceivable area of the open eye, or any sounds in the perceivable area of the ear they are perceived by the respective organs. Even when I tried to stop, only thoughts arose about trying. No other action can be found taken against showing it up. I can't stop perceiving them.

Can you let them to show up? 

I can not do any letting them show up. If they are there they are perceived without any effort. I can not make them show up and if they show up I can't stop them from showing up either. They may stop on their own.

Is there a self/I in charge of what colours, sounds, sensations are present?

What colors perceived to the eye, what sounds perceived to the ear and what sensations perceived to the body are totally independent of a self even totally independent of other body parts.
colors, sounds, thoughts, sensations and emotions are as they are and there is no self here that can control or be in charge of any of these. Trying to control any of these generated only thoughts and did not change these.

Do they all appear on their own, or a self/I is making them to appear?

They all appear on their own and change on their own. A self couldn't be found making them to appear or do any manipulation of them.

Is there a control over ANYTHING?

All that can really happen is seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensations, and thoughts and there is no control over any of these. There is no control over anything, anything at all!         
There are occasions with apparent control, for example when I promise to do something, most of the time I do it. However, It is an apparent control, upon looking there was no such entity here that did it. When the thought arise about the promise and the task, it is been performed. How was the promise verbalized? In response to an arisen thought.

What do you notice?

Eye, ear, nose tongue etc work the way they do and no entity could be found here who can/does change the way they perceive experience.
I keep looking as the tasks of the day take place; some actions happen following an arising thought of doing it but some times things happen without any apparent thought, for example, just spontaneously starting to sing a song. No decision to sing or which song to sing was found.  I kept seeing how much simple the life is, once you set aside all the garbage added by thoughts about I/me, him, her and them and thereby creating emotions.
Thank you.

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

You did a nice looking.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

How is the decision made?
Is the decision is made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?

Repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien

[LostMe]

Thank you Vivien.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other. 

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? 

Most of the time, the right hand was raised but it wasn't knowingly chosen. Couldn't locate anything that chose the hand. After the right hand raising happened few times, in the next trial a thought arose something like "let me raise left hand this time" and the left hand was raised. It appeared as if I chose, but it was that thought resulted in left hand raising. Whenever I remember about this exercise and did it suddenly, any one hand came up at random without any apparent thought.

Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing? 

No, I couldn't find anybody doing the choosing

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?

I wasn't controlling the moving of the hand. There appear to have some control as it was raised straight up every time. Perhaps brain and neuro-transmitters are involved, but that wasn't of our interest in this inquiry, but to see if a "self" is doing it. No, there wasn't any self doing it.

Is there a ‘I’ controlling which and to raise?

No, there was no I controlling which hand to raise. Some occasions a thought about it was observed and other occasions action tok place without a thought.

Is there a controller? Where?

No, there wasn't a controller

How is the decision made?

A decision-thought wasn't known most of the time. There was no apparent effort to make a decision.

Is the decision is made by an I/self?

Decision must have just happened. There was no involvement of an "I"

Is there a decision maker? Where?

No, there was no decision maker, nowhere to be found.

Thank you for the excercise.

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

After the right hand raising happened few times, in the next trial a thought arose something like "let me raise left hand this time" and the left hand was raised. It appeared as if I chose, but it was that thought resulted in left hand raising.

Please repeat this exercise a few more times.

When there is a thought ‘let me raise left hand this time’ – is this thought choosing the left hand?
And what is moving the hand, what is raising it?

There appear to have some control as it was raised straight up every time. Perhaps brain and neuro-transmitters are involved, but that wasn't of our interest in this inquiry, but to see if a "self" is doing it. No, there wasn't any self doing it.

Yes, we don’t go to scientific explanations that wouldn’t be useful for us.

But you are saying that ‘there appear to have some control over raising the hand’.

So do the exercise again, and this time zoom onto this apparent control.

How does the apparent control appear?
How does the apparent control is experienced?
And when there is an apparent control, then what/who is the controller?

Please describe this apparent control as precisely as you can, without any speculation, imagination or analogy. Just write about the pure experiential facts.

Decision must have just happened. There was no involvement of an "I"

Look at this a bit more closely.

Is there an actual decision happening?
Can you find the exact moment when decision happens?

Is there an actual real decision, deciding happening, OR there is only a thought appearing with the content “let’s raise the left hand”?

Vivien

[LostMe]

Hi Vivien,

After the right hand raising happened few times, in the next trial a thought arose something like "let me raise left hand this time" and the left hand was raised. It appeared as if I chose, but it was that thought resulted in left hand raising.

Please repeat this exercise a few more times.

When there is a thought ‘let me raise left hand this time’ – is this thought choosing the left hand?

I repeated the exercise few times whenever the thought arose about doing it. In this set of trials the above thought didn't come. Most of the time the right hand was risen. That thought was not choosing the left hand, it was just a thought. The thought content was not experienced directly, only interpreted so by more thoughts.

And what is moving the hand, what is raising it?

The hand moved (raised) by itself. 

There appear to have some control as it was raised straight up every time. Perhaps brain and neuro-transmitters are involved, but that wasn't of our interest in this inquiry, but to see if a "self" is doing it. No, there wasn't any self doing it.

Yes, we don’t go to scientific explanations that wouldn’t be useful for us.  But you are saying that ‘there appear to have some control over raising the hand’. So do the exercise again, and this time zoom onto this apparent control.

How does the apparent control appear?

It only appeared as a thought. No control was experienced.

How does the apparent control is experienced?

I couldn't directly experience any control happening.

And when there is an apparent control, then what/who is the controller?

When looked into, it is always a presence of a thought suggesting so. There was nothing/nobody doing any controlling.

Please describe this apparent control as precisely as you can, without any speculation, imagination or analogy. Just write about the pure experiential facts.

When looked, there was no direct experience of a control, the only experience was some sensations in the hand when it is raised. Then some thought followed talking about a control.

Decision must have just happened. There was no involvement of an "I"

Look at this a bit more closely.
Is there an actual decision happening? 

No, there was no decision about which hand to raise. I didn't notice any thought about a decision.

Can you find the exact moment when decision happens?

I couldn't find a decision-thought arising.

Is there an actual real decision, deciding happening, OR there is only a thought appearing with the content “let’s raise the left hand”?

It is only a thought arising with the content "let me raise the left hand"
Thank you.

[Vivien]

Hi Grace,

You did a nice looking :)

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, act according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Vivien