Liberation Unleashed Forum The Gate
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https://liberationunleashed.com:443/nation/viewtopic.php?t=7531
No. Said with some feelings of resistance.So is there an I/self doing anything?
No.Is there anything that is not on automatic?
Please tell me more about this resistance.V: So is there an I/self doing anything?B: No. Said with some feelings of resistance.
Would that be a problem? For who?Vivien, are we just a bunch of beings living on automatic?
It's about not wanting to admit it, because then it's hard to understand what's happening and why, and what it means for living life. And there is a tinge of depression.Please tell me more about this resistance. What is the resistance about? What is being resisted?
No, just the above resistance as described.Is there a doubt that maybe there is a self/I somewhere?
Not sure. It seems to bring up a host of questions like accountability/responsibility, and perhaps others - the list gets pretty big pretty fast.Would that be a problem? For who?
If these questions and a tinge of depression is coming up, then it shows that it’s still believed that there is a self being affected by this inquiry. Just let these feelings and emotions be there.It's about not wanting to admit it, because then it's hard to understand what's happening and why, and what it means for living life. And there is a tinge of depression.
But whose questions are these? Is it yours? Is there a ‘you’ who owns these questions and wants to get answers?It seems to bring up a host of questions like accountability/responsibility, and perhaps others - the list gets pretty big pretty fast.
Yes, okay. Willing and able to let everything be as it is.If these questions and a tinge of depression is coming up, then it shows that it’s still believed that there is a self being affected by this inquiry. Just let these feelings and emotions be there.
It's not clear who or what. The concern is much clearer, but you're right, it's stemming from a perspective of a "me" and what this all means for that "me". Can that "me" be found? No. Just a bunch of thoughts and sensations.What/who is concerned that ‘what it means for living life”?
It does seem like there is something here, consciousness or something like that, not counting the illusory self made up of thoughts, sensations, etc.Who/what is it that is living life? Is there a ‘you’ living life?
Only the 'you' that's trying to hold on to its existence through the resistance, in the form of questions.Is there a ‘you’ being affected by this inquiry?
It's really not clear "whose" the questions are. Inquiring, it just brings up feelings, images, and then there's a feeling of dissociation and fogginess, and then the questions pop out.But whose questions are these? Is it yours? Is there a ‘you’ who owns these questions and wants to get answers?
Then find this something. You have to actively search for it.V: Who/what is it that is living life? Is there a ‘you’ living life?B:It does seem like there is something here, consciousness or something like that, not counting the illusory self made up of thoughts, sensations, etc.
It’s not enough to talk or think about the self. The self itself needs to be found, not just thoughts about it.There's a feeling labeled fear, if words can be put to it, then thoughts like if there's no-one here doing then "I" will [insert 'bad thing' here, become apathetic, lazy, powerless, etc.]
Searching and searching. Can’t find a thing that's living life.Where is this something that is living life? Where? Is it in the chest? In the middle? Or left or right? In the head? Where exactly? Behind the eyes? Or in the middle of the head? Or maybe at the top of the head? Where exactly?
No. There is no experiencable self.Thoughts are talking about a self, but is is there a real, tangible, experiencable self BEHIND these thoughts? WHERE? WHERE is this self that thoughts are referring TO?
I’m glad to hear that :)The feelings of depression/low mood have passed.
And is there a non-experiencable self?There is no experiencable self.
What is the perception of the self which is seemingly kick back in?When not "looking" the belief/perception that there's a me seems to kick back in.
I cannot find one.And is there a non-experiencable self?
Having lots of difficulty describing this experientially. Maybe we should move on. It just feels like there's a me being believed to exist in the sensations, thoughts, feelings, then remembering to look for that me, and no me is found.B: When not "looking" the belief/perception that there's a me seems to kick back in.
V: What is the perception of the self which is seemingly kick back in? How is it perceived? How is it experienced?
This is not something we should move on. You didn’t look, you just gave an intellectual answer.V: When not "looking" the belief/perception that there's a me seems to kick back in.B: Having lots of difficulty describing this experientially. Maybe we should move on. It just feels like there's a me being believed to exist in the sensations, thoughts, feelings, then remembering to look for that me, and no me is found.
There is no self experienced when not looking. Same as when looking for it. It's all sensations, thoughts, sights, sounds.Please describe me the experience of the self when not is looking. How is it experienced exactly?
Yes, however upon further investigation it is not true that a self is experienced when not looking. Speaking in direct perception and direct experience, there is no self perceived or experienced anywhere.You say that there is a perception of the self when there is no looking. So please describe me this perception in detail. How is the self itself perceived?
Understood, Vivien, thank you for that reminder. I assure you, intellectualizing is never the intent.I have to be honest with you. You cannot get anywhere with intellectualization. It’s utterly useless and pointless. You are just wasting your time if you don’t look and really investigate each question I give you.
Good :) Sometimes it’s easy to slip into old habits and analyse and interpret things, so you have to watch out for this.I assure you, intellectualizing is never the intent.
And do you feel that this a deep visceral understanding, or it’s on head-level?Yes, however upon further investigation it is not true that a self is experienced when not looking. Speaking in direct perception and direct experience, there is no self perceived or experienced anywhere.
There are moments of deeper visceral, but mostly it's on a head level. Being honest here, but don't give up on me, Vivien!And do you feel that this a deep visceral understanding, or it’s on head-level?
Only in that those same sensations and thoughts that used to be taken as a me are still happening, and are sort of passively assumed to be a me until the me is looked for. At times through our inquiry process there has been an experience of no me, just a sense of space here, like there's no "back" back here, with experiences arising and flowing through. But, at least in the last couple of days, it's more the former experience.Is there a sense of me in your daily life?
I'm not sure if this is what you're asking. What's observed: The "me" or self is showing up experientially as thoughts and emotions sort of building or increasing in a feeling of density or contraction. Or, other times it's moments of relational conflict, someone is doing something wrong to me and it is taken as personal. Another way to try to describe it is that emotions will arise, for example like a low mood as I mentioned, and there's a belief that it's happening to me and "I" have to fix it or do something about it.How is the self showing up?
Yes it's accurate to say there is a belief and attempt to control things.Does it feel that there is control over things?
I’m not giving up on you, you don’t have to worry about it :) I’m here to help you as long as it takes, even if it takes a year. What matters is your commitment and your 100% honesty (that you write only about what is true in your experience, and what you learned or heard from someone else).There are moments of deeper visceral, but mostly it's on a head level. Being honest here, but don't give up on me, Vivien!
I trust you'll be patient with me here, it seems like I'm failing the course or something. I'm still very committed to this process.
OK, there might be a hidden expectation here. Seeing through the self is not a state, not a difference experience than what is normally happening.At times through our inquiry process there has been an experience of no me, just a sense of space here, like there's no "back" back here, with experiences arising and flowing through. But, at least in the last couple of days, it's more the former experience.
OK, let’s look into this.What's observed: The "me" or self is showing up experientially as thoughts and emotions sort of building or increasing in a feeling of density or contraction. Or, other times it's moments of relational conflict, someone is doing something wrong to me and it is taken as personal. Another way to try to describe it is that emotions will arise, for example like a low mood as I mentioned, and there's a belief that it's happening to me and "I" have to fix it or do something about it.
Okay, yes, that distinction makes sense and is helpful.OK, there might be a hidden expectation here. Seeing through the self is not a state, not a difference experience than what is normally happening. It’s not a state where there are no thoughts about I/me/mine/my, or that the ‘sense of self’ is completely gone. It’s a RECOGNITION that the self is just an illusion, REGARDLESS of the presence or absence of the selfing thoughts and feelings. Can you see the difference?
When investigated, there's no "thing" feeling the mood. The feelings are just happening. But not to some "thing".FEEL that low mood. And while you are feeling it, investigate:
What is FEELING this mood?
As above, there's no owner of the mood.What does this mood belong TO? Who/what owns it?
Of course today there were no such examples, but I am watching for this and will report.Also, please give me examples from your life that we can work with. When there is an emotion or mood present and as a result the self seems to be very real.