The Gate

Thank you, Vivien.
I'm pretty free today, so I'm going to sit down with a fiery attitude, and re-explore awareness and attention, and get to the bottom of it all.
I'll mail you again later today, or possibly tomorrow at the latest.
Have a great day,
Dion

Hello :)

After mailing you before, I sat down and yelled and screamed and beat my fists on the table (not literally, just energetically). I got a little clarity, and then a storm of thoughts and frantic energy. I stormed around the house incoherently cleaning like a madman. All the while there was a constant barrage of thoughts.
A couple of hours later. Tired. Hungry.
I sat down and stared at the bead curtains dividing 2 rooms. I couldn’t get clarity. As things were slowing down, and I was near clarity, thoughts would again and again leap in and start hypothesizing and claiming and naming and defining.
I was feeling a bit overwhelmed and frustrated, and then in the midst of it, I looked and realised that the thoughts were just part of the whole. An expression of the whole. They’re not in opposition to the whole, or the opposite of the whole. Thoughts disappeared and I was left with calm.
Attention cannot be divided from awareness. They are one. The same as awareness and objects are one. They are only perceivable as entities distinct from other entities when I use the mind.
By the way, I love what you said about existence and fantasy. It really stuck and helped a lot. Thank you! :)

It’s evening now. As an extension of seeing thoughts as just another happening, before. What is this character, this thing that claims existence?
Who is this who claims the experience? Claims the seeing? The character ‘dion’ is gone, but there’s still this ‘me’ going through the experience. The subject of the experience. This evening will be spent looking for that one.
Thank you Vivien.
I’ll mail again tomorrow.

Hi Dion,

After mailing you before, I sat down and yelled and screamed and beat my fists on the table (not literally, just energetically). I got a little clarity, and then a storm of thoughts and frantic energy. I stormed around the house incoherently cleaning like a madman. All the while there was a constant barrage of thoughts.

What caused this reaction? Fear? Anger? Frustration? Or what?

Attention cannot be divided from awareness. They are one. The same as awareness and objects are one. They are only perceivable as entities distinct from other entities when I use the mind.
By the way, I love what you said about existence and fantasy. It really stuck and helped a lot. Thank you! :)

I would like to ask NOT to ignore my questions. Those are pointers for you where to look.
So please go back to my previous questions and LOOK at them one-by-one and reply to them one-by-one.

It’s evening now. As an extension of seeing thoughts as just another happening, before. What is this character, this thing that claims existence?
Who is this who claims the experience? Claims the seeing? The character ‘dion’ is gone, but there’s still this ‘me’ going through the experience. The subject of the experience. This evening will be spent looking for that one.

If there is REALLY a ‘me/I’ going through experience, then it should be easy to find and locate this me.
So WHERE is it?

Vivien

Hello Vivien,
Sorry for not answering each of your questions.
I’ll do it now.

Since there are ONLY TWO options:
EXPERIENCE (with the 5 senses: seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting)
or FANTASY (thoughts).
Can you see this?

Yes, I can see that. That description clarified things a lot. Thank you.

How could awareness/attention settle on a point, if there is no separate awareness/attention?

It can’t. If I only experience, it’s difficult to use words like ‘attention’ and ‘awareness’, because there is no separation between them.

Since if attention/awareness cannot be found, then it CANNOT be seen.
When you look for it, you don’t find anything.
So HOW can you SEE something if you don’t find it?

I had to imagine division. I had to imagine and divide sensations into groups and then name those groups. Here I am getting caught up in mental workings again. When I try to look hard, I seem to slip into the mind.
But I can’t see the mind. But it feels like it just glides it’s way... speculation and division again.
I wasn’t looking. I was in imagination land again.

Can you see that this is just another thought story (speculation)?

I can see that. Yes.
When these questions are posed, I find myself slipping into memory and mental gymnastics.
I remember what you said about the mind of a child. When I rest in that simplicity and clarity, everything is very clear and simple to see.

In order to see that you can see awareness or attention, first you have to FIND them.
Can you find awareness?
Can you find attention?

I cannot find them. I cannot even see them.

Please write me a list how awareness looks like.

I can’t see it, let alone describe it.

After, write another list how attention looks like.

I can’t see it. I can only imagine it.

After doing the above exercise, are you still sure that ‘there is awareness of attention’?

Now it just sounds like nonsense. When I look, I can’t even find or see awareness, or attention.

And what about this (awareness of attention settling)?

It’s like I moved through layer after layer of imagination. It only takes the first projection and then other illusions get built around it.
It can become a maze or a labyrinth of illusion.
Now I understand what is meant by, ‘castles in the sand’.

Previously you wrote that attention is settling on the object.
Now you say that awareness is aware of attention.
And this awareness is settling.
HOW do you know that awareness is aware of attention, if neither awareness nor attention can be found/experienced?

I’m struggling to follow this. It is like a philosophy.
I’m sorry, I can’t explain it.

Or maybe awareness can be experienced? How?

I can’t see how it’s possible to experience awareness. It’s integral to experience. Integral to existence. To experience it would require I take a step back from it, to be separate from it. It would also require that it could be removed from existence. To be separate. But it’s not. The word itself seems strange.
I still have a feeling of the mind lurking, like the mind is sitting on my shoulder, whispering, ‘yeah, but....’

And attention can be experienced? How?

That, I can’t explain. I don’t know how that would be possible.

(The next questions are from your most recent mail).

What caused this reaction? Fear? Anger? Frustration? Or what?

Frustration. Also, I’ve had this feeling of an inner scream, periodically throughout my life. Whenever I tried to release it physically, it made no difference. Before I contacted Liberation Unleashed, I had recently and occasionally been just sitting quietly and observing it.
That feeling came up again, so I just sat and let it run itself out.

If there is REALLY a ‘me/I’ going through experience, then it should be easy to find and locate this me.
So WHERE is it?

Yeah... I can occasionally catch and observe this ‘me’ feeling in action. For example, when I’m being defensive, or when I’m drifting off on lines of thought.
It seems like there’s an energy that becomes fixated on the thoughts. There’s an experience of claiming experience as ‘mine’, and from there it seems like the thoughts gain energy or are propelled forward. They grow in stength and size.
Oh, my god. That sounds as ridiculous as the ramblings I made about awareness and attention. It sounds crazy. It sounds like the ramblings of a madman.

I’m sorry I’m so slow!
Thank you for your patience!
Dion

Hi Dion,

I can’t see how it’s possible to experience awareness. It’s integral to experience. Integral to existence. To experience it would require I take a step back from it, to be separate from it. It would also require that it could be removed from existence. To be separate. But it’s not. The word itself seems strange.
I still have a feeling of the mind lurking, like the mind is sitting on my shoulder, whispering, ‘yeah, but....’

This is still a mind stuff.

If awareness cannot be experienced, then how do you know that it exist at all?

How can you make the claim that awareness is integral to experience, if this awareness cannot be experienced, cannot be seen, felt, touched, heard, etc?

To say that awareness is integral to experience, then first you have to be able to FIND this awareness to make such a claim.
You are talking about a ghost. You are talking about something that is just IMAGINED.

Can you find ‘awareness’ in ANY shape or form, other than a THOUGHT CONCEPT?

V: And attention can be experienced? How?

D: That, I can’t explain. I don’t know how that would be possible.

Because maybe it’s not possible??

Have you EVER been able to find ‘attention’ itself?

Is there REALLY such thing as ‘attention’?
Or ‘attention’ maybe just another concept?

Objects can be found/experienced. But is there an ACTUAL attention moving from one object to another?
Or is this ‘moving attention’ just another imagination?

I’m sorry I’m so slow!

You don’t have to apologize. I’m here to help you no matter how long it takes.

Vivien

Noooo! Oh man, that sucks. I just wrote a big intro, and then deleted it!
Oh well, it was a bit sloppy, so I’ll try to be more concise this time..
So, sorry I skipped a day. I was checking my internet sporadically for your reply, and nothing. I thought, it’s the weekend. She’s chilling. Get off her back.
It just didn’t make my Yahoo inbox, for some reason.
Anyway, things have become lighter and different. Feels like I’m on a rock in a river. I became aware of this absolutely monolithic non-moving, steadfast ‘thing’, or ‘position’ that is just there ‘behind’ everything.
It’s not a thing. It’s like the base or background to everything that’s happening. It’s like THAT’S the ‘place’ that everything is seen from. There might be clarity or rushing thoughts, or sensations, but this ‘thing/place’ is always there, and absolutely unmoved by anything and unmoving.
I can even see this character, rocking around. Chatting, being crystal clear, caught in thought. Getting mildly annoyed with his wife and then 2 seconds later being free again. Nothing sticks. It’s like, the water flows all around, but I’m connect to, or on a big rock in it all. I don’t move. Maybe not I, just no movement. Something like that.
And, of course, like everything else, I can’t find it, or see it.
Anyway, on to the questions.

If awareness cannot be experienced, then how do you know that it exist at all?

I’m struggling with that one a bit now. I know the word. I know what it means. I even know what the idea of it feels and looks like. But, god I don’t know what to say. I don’t know it exists.

How can you make the claim that awareness is integral to experience, if this awareness cannot be experienced, cannot be seen, felt, touched, heard, etc?

Yeah. I see. Yeah, it’s gobblety gook. Mental stuff. Like philosophising.

To say that awareness is integral to experience, then first you have to be able to FIND this awareness to make such a claim.
You are talking about a ghost. You are talking about something that is just IMAGINED.
Can you find ‘awareness’ in ANY shape or form, other than a THOUGHT CONCEPT?
Because maybe it’s not possible??

No, I can’t.
I just realised I’m answering these questions drawing on my memories from the weekend. Sorry about that. I have to be more vigilant when answering.
No I can’t. My old life was so full of mentalisations about ‘consciousness’ and ‘awareness’, like they were the only truth beneath the web of illusion.
Things are much simpler than I thought. Much much. Much much much. :)

Have you EVER been able to find ‘attention’ itself?

No, never. Although the mind is very willing to jump in with some proof. :)
He’s poised there, just waiting for an opportunity to start spinning.

Is there REALLY such thing as ‘attention’?
Or ‘attention’ maybe just another concept?
Objects can be found/experienced. But is there an ACTUAL attention moving from one object to another?
Or is this ‘moving attention’ just another imagination?

Yeah. Spot on. Just another concept. Man, you’ve been doing this a while, I’m guessing. You hit it on the head.

I'm sure there's some mental rubbish in there. Why break with tradition? When I sit down at the computer, the mind tends to become more active, trying to run things.

You don’t have to apologize. I’m here to help you no matter how long it takes.

Vivien

I love you. You’re the best. Thank you.
Dion

Hi Dion,

I just realised I’m answering these questions drawing on my memories from the weekend. Sorry about that. I have to be more vigilant when answering.

It’s not about what words you use when you reply to me. It’s about what is it that you can REALLY SEE and not just what you philosophize or speculate about.

My old life was so full of mentalisations about ‘consciousness’ and ‘awareness’, like they were the only truth beneath the web of illusion.
Things are much simpler than I thought. Much much. Much much much. :)

Yes, it is much much simpler.

Although the mind is very willing to jump in with some proof. :)

Please sit on a chair doing nothing for a few minutes. Watch the thoughts coming and going.

Do 'you' think thoughts? Are thoughts 'yours'?

Try an experiment. Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Vivien

Hi Vivien.

Do 'you' think thoughts? Are thoughts 'yours'?

First of all, there’s no me I can find.
And thoughts come unbidden.
I'm Rambling. No, they’re not mine. They’re just occasional parts of the scenery.

Try an experiment. Try to create a thought. Any thought, from scratch. What do you find?

I find that I can’t. I don’t know how to go about it. My brow furrows, the eyes look around a bit, and then the mind sort of tip-toes up on me and comments on my effort.

Do you notice how thoughts seem to appear, hang around for a while and somehow pass, and then the next thought come?

Yes, sort of like cascades. They roll in out of nowhere, and then drift of into nothingness.

Now try preventing a thought from appearing. Is it possible?

Perhaps if I could see the source, and the route and the destination, I might be able to try and block them. But I don’t, so I can’t.

Thank you, Vivien :)

Hi Dion,

First of all, there’s no me I can find.

Could it be that the self is just a thought, and that's why it can't be found?
Could it be that it only appears when a thought "I" or "me" appears?
Or is it always there?

Please don’t just think and ponder on this questions, but really LOOK if they true or not.
Test them in experience.

Be very thorough, as if your life would depend on it.

Vivien

Hi Vivien,

Thoughts and energy have been racing all over the place today.
I sat down in a cafe in the afternoon, and everything became still.
I sat in experience, and said, ‘I’, or ‘me’, or ‘my’, or ‘Dion’.
I thought I noticed a sensation of contraction or energy in my chest, when I casually used those words.
But when I sat and looked, and now if I sit and look closely when I say those words, there is only emptiness. Space. Peace.
If I try to make a sentence, like, ‘I am (insert adjective/noun)’, I have to try hard to produce the adjective or noun. There’s a space, a nothing that sits in the space for the adjective or noun. Like a force-field noun that doesn’t permit entry of a word.
If I’m not too focused, there is a vague sense of identity, a recognition when I use those words.
When someone else uses the words, ‘Dion’, or ‘you’, I know immediately who or what they are referring to. I don’t know how that works. But, there is recognition.

Could it be that the self is just a thought, and that's why it can't be found?

Yes. Absolutely. It makes sense.
But there’s still a recognition of self if someone calls me, and I’m not aware of that necessarily being accompanied by a thought. It’s accompanied by an automatic reaction. A response. But not necessarily by a sensation or a thought.

Could it be that it only appears when a thought "I" or "me" appears?

Yes, it could be so. I tried to locate that at the cafe, and then later at home. But I can’t see that happening.

Or is it always there?

It’s not always there. Often, it’s not there. When the mind is going hard, racing away, the sense of me and self increases in strength. Although it feels very diluted.
And just the smallest inquiry only finds space.

Can I ask something?
How is it possible for nothing to assume a limited identity that needs protection and maintenance? Is it belief? Then, what is belief? How the golly gosh does that work? I’ve wondered that for years.
If this is useless and or counterproductive, please ignore it.
I submit to you knowing what is best for me.

Thank you, Vivien :)

Hi Dion,

Can I ask something?
How is it possible for nothing to assume a limited identity that needs protection and maintenance? Is it belief? Then, what is belief? How the golly gosh does that work? I’ve wondered that for years.
If this is useless and or counterproductive, please ignore it.

This is a philosophical question, and the answer can be only a thought speculation.

We are not investigating HOW or WHY thing are happen, but rather WHAT is happening.
We are looking for the FACTS of reality, and not thought stories about how reality works.

V: Could it be that the self is just a thought, and that's why it can't be found?

D: Yes. Absolutely. It makes sense.
But there’s still a recognition of self if someone calls me, and I’m not aware of that necessarily being accompanied by a thought. It’s accompanied by an automatic reaction. A response. But not necessarily by a sensation or a thought.

“But there’s still a recognition of self if someone calls me” – so someone call you by your name. Does this mean that there is an ACTUAL recognition of and ACTUAL self?

Or is it just a conditioned habitual response to the SOUND of your name?

Please don’t just think through this. If you can ask someone to call you by your name, and pay attention what is actually happening. If there is nobody you can ask to help with this, then just vigilantly wait until someone calls you, and watch like a hawk what is actually going on.

V: Could it be that it only appears when a thought "I" or "me" appears?

D: Yes, it could be so. I tried to locate that at the cafe, and then later at home. But I can’t see that happening.

All right. Now let’s go a step further.

Look at this again and again until you are CERTAIN if there is an ACTUAL self/I or not.
Please let me know what you find.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,

Thank you for your response.

“But there’s still a recognition of self if someone calls me” – so someone call you by your name. Does this mean that there is an ACTUAL recognition of and ACTUAL self?
Or is it just a conditioned habitual response to the SOUND of your name?
Please don’t just think through this. If you can ask someone to call you by your name, and pay attention what is actually happening. If there is nobody you can ask to help with this, then just vigilantly wait until someone calls you, and watch like a hawk what is actually going on.

After your mail yesterday, I tried saying ‘I’, and ‘me’, and ‘mine’, and reported back to you. I also asked my wife, to randomly call my name 4 or 5 times, while my attention was somewhere else, and observed the reaction.
My sense of self isn’t strengthened when my name is called. There is just a recognition.
A very quick and strong recognition.

Look at this again and again until you are CERTAIN if there is an ACTUAL self/I or not.
Please let me know what you find.

Ok. I’ll spend the day looking and looking. I don’t think I’ll find anything new. I looked very hard and clearly, yesterday.
But I’ll do it again today.

Bye for now,
Dion

Hi Dion,

I also asked my wife, to randomly call my name 4 or 5 times, while my attention was somewhere else, and observed the reaction.
My sense of self isn’t strengthened when my name is called. There is just a recognition.
A very quick and strong recognition.

Please ask her to repeat your name again.
And this time LOOK for ANYthing that is recognizing or hearing your name.
Is there an entity/me hearing and then recognizing the sound of your name?

Ok. I’ll spend the day looking and looking. I don’t think I’ll find anything new. I looked very hard and clearly, yesterday.
But I’ll do it again today.

This whole process is about searching, searching and searching… and even more searching for the self again and again and again…. hundreds if not thousands of times.

It’s the constant looking and looking and not finding what brings about the realization of no self.

So please look for it again and again…. until NO/ZERO doubt is left if there is a me/entity in any way and anywhere at all.
You have to be as sure that you could even put your life on it.

Look at this again and again until you are 100% CERTAIN if there is an ACTUAL self/I or not.
Please let me know what you find.

Vivien

Hello Vivien,
I spent the day looking. And looking and looking. I’m going to do the same tomorrow and forever until I see clearly.
One thing I did notice today was that, when there are thoughts about ‘me’, like, ‘I’m going to do this and that, and then it will be like this or that’, they are accompanied by an image of what Dion is. It’s very one-dimensional. But it’s there.
I’d like to spend the day tomorrow looking hard, too, unless you have something else you want me to focus on specifically.
Thanks Vivien :)
DIon

Hi Dion,

It’s time to re-examine your expectations.

One thing I did notice today was that, when there are thoughts about ‘me’, like, ‘I’m going to do this and that, and then it will be like this or that’, they are accompanied by an image of what Dion is. It’s very one-dimensional. But it’s there.

Is there an expectation here that Dion should stop appearing?
Or that thoughts/images about me/Dion should be gone?

Or is there any other expectation how seeing no self should be like or feel like?

Vivien