"who" is the lostperrito?

[lostperrito]

I would like for you to LOOK then and tell me, and not what you think, but tell me what is all you wrote is actually pointing to. Can you find any of it in AE, other than AE of thought?

Sorry Kay, I got lost in the chain of responses and didn't see these questions. To answer this question, upon looking again, the only AE is thought. And seeing causation, order, logic, etc. in thought is just additional thoughts of thought and therefore not AE.

And how do you do that exactly? How is it known, without thought, that you thought those successive thoughts? How did you know what particular thoughts to think next, after the original thought? How did you know, for example, that after the original thought of “I am going to go to the shops after work”, that you wanted to think the next thought “I want to buy some new shoes”? How did you know that without being aware of the thought first?

I cannot know without additional thought that I thought those successive thoughts. I did not know what particular thoughts to think after the original thought, as they just appeared with no effort on my part. Each successive thought appeared without any "want" or direction from me. I couldn't have been aware of any seeming succession in thoughts before I became aware of each independent thought; therefore, any seeming order or succession is just my thought about thought.

So please, describe in detail, the process by which you create a thought, or make a choice. You have been doing it all your life apparently - so you must know exactly how you do it. So how do you do it? How do you create a thought? How do you think?

Ha! I have no idea how I create a thought. Thoughts just appear. Thinking (thoughts) is automatic. Like breathing. I have no idea how I started and continue to breath. I just do it.

Also, did you LOOK to see if you could find that you who was able to direct successive thoughts?

I LOOKED and was not able to find a "me" directing thought. Thought just appears. I have no role in creating it and certainly have no role in directing it.

When you did the ‘finding the gap’ exercise, did you find a thinker of thought? When you did the simplified looking exercise, did you find an “I” anywhere? If not, then revisit what you wrote to see if it makes any logical sense even.

I did not find a thinker of thoughts and I cannot find an "I" in the experience of AE. I agree that it makes no logical sense to find an "I" or "thinker" in thought.

Thanks Kay.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Greg,,

Thank you for taking the time to answer those questions. It is important that you can see clearly how thoughts work. There will be plenty of times ahead where thinking will overlay what IS and confusion and doubt will appear...so we need to be thorough about the nature of thought. If the idea that you are the thinker of thought is not tested each time the idea appears...it will cause problems.

So, since there is no thinker of thought, what are you responsible for exactly?

Soccer game exercise
Lovely observations of what happens when turning sound off and on while watching a game. Thought seems to be the predominant experience, however, if you just allow (watch/observe) thought without actually following thought, you see that thought is just a constant stream of commentary that has a story about everything and overlays actual experience continuously with stories.

So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Greg’ and ‘his life’?

If there is no commentary to ‘suck you in’, then everything is neutral. So with the commentary off, everything is just happening. It is only the commentary that overlays what is appearing that seemingly gives meaning to what is happening and draws ‘you’ into the story of being a separate self. And as you saw, the commentary is usually about what has happened or it goes on about what should happen (in the future) and what should or should not have happened, or did happen in the past.

So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Greg’!

If someone didn’t kick the ball and get a goal, without commentary, all there is, is figures running and kicking a ball that either goes through to the net or not! It is only the commentary that says what the figures are doing and that they are people, that a net is a net and a ball is a ball….and then either judges the action as good or bad and so on.

So, can you see how this fits with the story about a character called ‘Greg’?

Just for some light humour :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4qc34kYHdM

Okay, so we have become aware of what actual experience is, and how looking is done with AE. We have looked at how thoughts work. These are two important keys to the whole guiding, as you need to see what actually IS as opposed to what thought says IS. It is a given now that you know how to LOOK to see what IS and you are aware of how thought overlays AE with stories.

From here on in you need to implement the exercises given, into your daily life. It is no good just doing the exercises so you can respond to your thread. You need to put the exercises into use throughout your day as you go about your day….ie put the seeing into daily seeing/knowing through constant practice of exercises given!

So let’s have a look at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Kay

[lostperrito]

So, since there is no thinker of thought, what are you responsible for exactly?

The thought of "I" is not responsible for anything. Thoughts occur that would make it appear that there is an "I", when there is not, and that the "I" has control and is responsible, but these thoughts are a story concocted in thought, not AE.

So can you see how thought does the same with the colour labelled ‘Greg’ and ‘his life’?

Yes! Thoughts tell a story about the color/image "Greg" and his life, when really all that exists ever is AE -- color/image, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Greg’!

So true! Pretty amazing, complex and convoluted commentary, but just thoughts and not AE.

Loved the video. Funny and right on. Shows how our thoughts overlay AE and influence our actions.

How is the movement controlled?

It is not controlled. I am not aware of any thought that turns the hand. It just happens.

Does a thought control it?

No.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

No decision to turn the hand over is made. I cannot find a decision point to turn the hand over.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

I cannot. It just simply happens.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Greg,

Loved the video. Funny and right on. Shows how our thoughts overlay AE and influence our actions.

Hmmm…do thoughts actually influence action? When doing the palm flipping exercise…did thought influence whether or not the palm flipped?

How is the movement controlled?

It is not controlled. I am not aware of any thought that turns the hand. It just happens.

So, just to be clear. When holding out the hand and saying “I am going to flip my hand”…it does or does not flip the hand?

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[lostperrito]

Hmmm…do thoughts actually influence action? When doing the palm flipping exercise…did thought influence whether or not the palm flipped?

Good question -- do thoughts influence action? Thought and/or thoughts did not influence whether or not the palm flipped; however, if there is pain when the palm flips (sensation) and thoughts says "that hurt and I better not do that again, or I better do it more carefully next time", are not thoughts influencing action? Upon further reflection, I'd say no, they are not, because the AE sensation of pain is influencing the action and thoughts are simply the story about it. Correct?

So, just to be clear. When holding out the hand and saying “I am going to flip my hand”…it does or does not flip the hand?

To be clear, Thought does not flip the hand. Subsequent thoughts about flipping the hand may try to tell the story about flipping the hand.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

I did not choose their qualities, they simply appeared by themselves. A preference for coconut water over water appeared but I did not choose this preference, it just simply appeared. The AE of an upset stomach (pain) might have had something to do with the appearance the preference, but no "thoughts" of the benefits of coconut water for an upset stomach resulted in drinking it rather than the water. The preferences popped up by themselves.

n step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

Counting took the front seat, very clearly. I did not choose the counting over the thought of preferences.
I did it again and tried to think about counting and preferences at the same time and I couldn't do it. I did not experience a mental function or faculty doing any choosing and I have not seen this function in action.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

I did not experience a mental function or faculty choosing nor did anything arise the announced "I am a chooser".

[forgetmenot]

Hello Greg,

Hmmm…do thoughts actually influence action? When doing the palm flipping exercise…did thought influence whether or not the palm flipped?

Good question -- do thoughts influence action? Thought and/or thoughts did not influence whether or not the palm flipped; however, if there is pain when the palm flips (sensation) and thoughts says "that hurt and I better not do that again, or I better do it more carefully next time", are not thoughts influencing action? Upon further reflection, I'd say no, they are not, because the AE sensation of pain is influencing the action and thoughts are simply the story about it. Correct?

This is something you need to LOOK and see. No use me telling you the answer and you not LOOKING. It then only becomes knowledge and not experiential.

Look at the following questions to help with your answers.
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is pain?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about pain?
Does thought know anything about pain?
Does thought know anything about sensations?


How does sensation influence the action exactly? Let's see if it does.
Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (ie colour) - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’)

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Kay

[lostperrito]

This is something you need to LOOK and see. No use me telling you the answer and you not LOOKING. It then only becomes knowledge and not experiential.
Look at the following questions to help with your answers.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is pain?
Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it knows anything about pain?
Does thought know anything about pain?
Does thought know anything about sensations?

Kay, good questions. They helped!
Upon further reflection, no sensation is simply sensation; it knows nothing about what thought labels "pain".
Thought knows nothing about the sensation of "pain". Thoughts arise about "pain" but these are just thoughts, not AE.
Logically, thought knows nothing about the AE of sensations, as thoughts about the sensation arise after the sensation and are just a story about it.

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, absolutely!

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

No, there is no link. Sensation and sight are separate and independent and there is no thought or mental construct linking them.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Greg,

Upon further reflection, no sensation is simply sensation; it knows nothing about what thought labels "pain".
Thought knows nothing about the sensation of "pain". Thoughts arise about "pain" but these are just thoughts, not AE.
Logically, thought knows nothing about the AE of sensations, as thoughts about the sensation arise after the sensation and are just a story about it.

A great tool to use to see whether thought is adding “virtual layers” via stories about experience, is to replace the thought itself with “blahblahblah” to see if what thought is referring to remains. The more complex the idea, the more “virtual layers” have been added. So the layers of the story, which are pure fantasy need to be stripped away, until all that remains is the bare bones.

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am confused”. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

No, there is no link. Sensation and sight are separate and independent and there is no thought or mental construct linking them.

Lovely! Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and sight ie hand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.
We’ll do an exercise on this topic using the "sense of seeing".

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[lostperrito]

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am confused”. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

The thought "I am confused" does not contain any actual confusion. Just as the thought of thunder does not create the AE of thunder, the thought "I am confused" does not create confusion. An example from this morning: I was researching how to live stream TV from Hulu and other providers and thoughts arose that it was very confusing, so I substituted "blahblahblah" and there was no AE of confusion, there was just the AE of color/image and Thought of words and pictures on my computer screen.

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

I do not have the choice not to see. I cannot turn seeing off and cannot not see what is seen.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same result as above. I cannot not see the view on the left with my eyes open.

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Same result. I cannot not see the black space.

Can you turn off seeing?

I cannot turn off seeing.

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

Nothing was chosen. Seeing is not chosen. There is no "chooser".

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

So true!! AE is not chosen! AE is just AE -- happening. No "I", no "self", not subjective thoughts, no chooser and/or decider required!!

[forgetmenot]

Hello Greg,

A simple example is if thought appears saying “I am confused”. Does the thought “I am confused” contain any actual confusion? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

The thought "I am confused" does not contain any actual confusion. Just as the thought of thunder does not create the AE of thunder, the thought "I am confused" does not create confusion. An example from this morning: I was researching how to live stream TV from Hulu and other providers and thoughts arose that it was very confusing, so I substituted "blahblahblah" and there was no AE of confusion, there was just the AE of color/image and Thought of words and pictures on my computer screen.

Now try the ‘blahblahblah’ tool with a thought that seemingly creates a body sensation. For example, becoming irritated, frustrated or anxious and thought appears saying “I am anxious”. Does the thought “I am anxious” contain any actual anxiety? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same result as above. I cannot not see the view on the left with my eyes open.

And is there a choice what is seen when the eyes are closed? Is there any choice in what is seen with either eyes opened or closed?

Is what is seen with eyes closed, different to what is seen with eyes open?

Can you turn off seeing?

I cannot turn off seeing.

Can you turn seeing on?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

Nothing was chosen. Seeing is not chosen. There is no "chooser".

The question was asking if what is seen can be chosen? Is there a choice, at any time in what is seen?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

So true!! AE is not chosen! AE is just AE -- happening. No "I", no "self", not subjective thoughts, no chooser and/or decider required!!

Exactly, so can you choose what sensations appear or when they appear? Is there any choice in what sounds appear or when they appear, or what thoughts appear and so on?

Okay…so to date we have looked at thoughts, control, choice, decision making and other bits and pieces to see that there is no separate self doing any of these things. Let’s move onto the body.
Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay

[lostperrito]

Now try the ‘blahblahblah’ tool with a thought that seemingly creates a body sensation. For example, becoming irritated, frustrated or anxious and thought appears saying “I am anxious”. Does the thought “I am anxious” contain any actual anxiety? Replace that thought with “blahblahblah” and see what remains. Let me know how you go.

Good exercise. Have had several occasions to replace thoughts of anxiety, frustration, etc. with blahblahblah over the last few days and when done, the sensations disappear. The thoughts that I am anxious, stressed, angry, worried do not contain any actual anxiety, stress, etc.

And is there a choice what is seen when the eyes are closed? Is there any choice in what is seen with either eyes opened or closed?

No, there is no choice of what is seen with the eyes open or closed. There is no choice and/or chooser; there is only AE.

Can you turn seeing on?

No, seeing cannot be turned on or off.

The question was asking if what is seen can be chosen? Is there a choice, at any time in what is seen?

No, what is seen cannot be chosen. There is no choice in what is seen.

Exactly, so can you choose what sensations appear or when they appear? Is there any choice in what sounds appear or when they appear,

or what thoughts appear and so on?

No, cannot choose what sensations appear or when they appear. Nor is there any choice in what sounds appear or when they appear, or in what thoughts appear and when they appear.

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

It cannot be known how tall the body is. Thoughts label it 6 feet or whatever but that is just thoughts, not AE.
No, the body does not have a weight or volume, again these concepts are just thoughts.
In AE, the body does not have shape or form. It is only the AE of color/image.

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Nope. Thee is no AE of a boundary between body and clothing, body and chair, or body and anything.

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

There is no inside or outside of the body. The "body" is thought labeling the AE of color/image, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

The label body is thoughts referring to the AE of color/image, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. The AE of the body is the AE of anything and everything -- color/image, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought at face value that is appearing right now in the moment. This realization helps me understand my near drowning experience. It was an experience that is best described as if my "body" dissolved into and became the water. The sensation was one of the dissolved essence of the "body" dispersing and flowing and becoming water (as energy, not color/image) itself. Clearly, the AE of this event is that the body does not exist other than as AE.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Greg,

Clearly, the AE of this event is that the body does not exist other than as AE.

So to be clear: there is no ‘body’, not even as AE. The AE of ‘body’ = AE of thought.
Sensation, sound, smell, taste, colour are AE but can a body be found in/as them? Do any of these suggest in any way that they are the body?

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Greg...you still with me here?

Kay

[lostperrito]

Hello Greg... you still with me here?

Yes Kay,
I did the body exercises a couple of times today and the results were not as clear as I would have liked so, I’d like to do tey again in the morning. Hope that is ok.

[forgetmenot]

Yes..no problem. Just checking in to see that all was and is okay.

Kay