Accepting What Is

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,

Addendum: part of the dampened feeling had to do with “I won’t be able to do the things I love any more. I won’t be able to read, to meet with people, do this, do that....”

But Sella has never been there. And yet, the seeming Stella has been able to read, to meet with people, and do all sorts of things.

Why should this change, just because Stella is now seen as an illusion?
It’s never been any other way, so why should anything change in her relationships and her likes?

The illusion/appearance of Stella will continue to play out.

Me/Stella is only a thought/belief that sometimes happens. Sometimes not. Sometimes my looking sees it and sometimes it doesn’t but it is not real. It just happens like other thoughts. Perhaps one day it will not happen anymore but that would be guessing and against the rules. :-)

And does it matter if it’s sometimes it’s seen and some other times it’s not that Stella is just a thought?

What would be concerned about whether it’s constantly seen or not?

Don’t know if it makes any sense or not to you but there’s no one deciding to think different thoughts or now to look left instead of right....there’s only what is happening and that’s all that is truly known.

Exactly! Nice description.

Vivien

[StellaA]

Addendum: part of the dampened feeling had to do with “I won’t be able to do the things I love any more. I won’t be able to read, to meet with people, do this, do that....”
But Stella has never been there. And yet, the seeming Stella has been able to read, to meet with people, and do all sorts of things. Why should this change, just because Stella is now seen as an illusion? It’s never been any other way, so why should anything change in her relationships and her likes? The illusion/appearance of Stella will continue to play out.

Right. Things will continue to unfold and looking will continue to happen, thoughts will arise and fall away, situations will arise and fall away ... or not.

Me/Stella is only a thought/belief that sometimes happens. Sometimes not. Sometimes my looking sees it and sometimes it doesn’t but it is not real. It just happens like other thoughts. Perhaps one day it will not happen anymore but that would be guessing and against the rules. :-)
And does it matter if it’s sometimes it’s seen and some other times it’s not that Stella is just a thought? What would be concerned about whether it’s constantly seen or not?

No matter at all. No “I” to think she needs to “do something.” No right and wrong to worry about. No need for hundreds of words when just a few suffice...whatever is happening is all there is.

Don’t know if it makes any sense or not to you but there’s no one deciding to think different thoughts or now to look left instead of right....there’s only what is happening and that’s all that is truly known.
Exactly! Nice description.

Thanks so much Vivien..

“If there is going to be a change, it will be the looking in the moment that will precipitate it. Not sure where that last sentence came from but it feels so true, it will stay.”

When this was written there was a sense of “I” in it. It was seen and still it was written. Now, looked at again there is a seeing that it doesn’t matter, who would be feeling “it” was “true.” All that is known is what is here now. It may indeed be true but it was substituting for looking and that is not helpful at all. It was hiding “someone” wanting change and believing this was the way to get there. No one to want, no where to go so those two lines go.

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,

When this was written there was a sense of “I” in it. It was seen and still it was written. Now, looked at again there is a seeing that it doesn’t matter, who would be feeling “it” was “true.” All that is known is what is here now. It may indeed be true but it was substituting for looking and that is not helpful at all. It was hiding “someone” wanting change and believing this was the way to get there. No one to want, no where to go so those two lines go.

Yes. But it’s important to mention here that we are not after stopping the ‘sense of I’ to appear. We are not after changing the experience into a different state where the ‘sense of I’ never appear ever again.

Rather, we are after the FACTS of reality, to see that even though there is the appearance of a ‘sense of I’, there is no ACTUAL or REAL I behind words and sensations.

To see that thoughts and sensations doesn’t happen TO anything or anyone.

Let’s look at some other aspects of the self to make sure that everything is clear.

Please go to the fridge and take out some food or drink. Watch like a hawk.
How is a decision is made?
WHAT is making the decision?

During the day when there is a seeming choosing or decision making is happening, look for the exact moment when choosing happening.
Is there a chooser at ANY time?

Vivien

[StellaA]

Yes. But it’s important to mention here that we are not after stopping the ‘sense of I’ to appear. We are not after changing the experience into a different state where the ‘sense of I’ never appear ever again.

Rather, we are after the FACTS of reality, to see that even though there is the appearance of a ‘sense of I’, there is no ACTUAL or REAL I behind words and sensations.

To see that thoughts and sensations doesn’t happen TO anything or anyone.

Let’s look at some other aspects of the self to make sure that everything is clear.

Please go to the fridge and take out some food or drink. Watch like a hawk. 
How is a decision is made?
WHAT is making the decision

During the day when there is a seeming choosing or decision making is happening, look for the exact moment when choosing happening. 
Is there a chooser at ANY time?

There is a remembering, thoughts about what in the past was done. "Don't forget to take your pills this morning." Getting out of bed, snoozing the buzzer, there's a moment when instead of lying down, the body is getting up. There are thoughts about getting up but in the moment when the change from one to the other happens, it isn't like someone says, Ok, get up now. Even looking at it, it seems blank. Much of what happens in the day is repetitive for Stella/me. I don't think of it as making a decision.

The body movements are similar. Automatic. To sit back in this chair. To lean forward and type. There's no one there saying. "Do this. Do that." It happens. That's very clear.

Even getting something to eat. Thoughts arise even before I get to the refrigerator. What's in there. Anything Stella/me wants to eat? Memories of what's there, memories of what she likes and will eat. It's all tapes playing and if there is a decision made it is made by that. Yesterday I was shopping and trying to find something easy to make for lunch. Stella/me walked up and down the aisles..not that, not that...then her eye caught the eggs. Boom. Fried egg on an english muffin would be great! Love them. Who loves them....Stella/me. So if I had to say what decides what to eat or do in any given moment it would be desire. But this is all a play though.. That's all the mask that cover the moment. Eggs were chosen because that's what happened.

I think you are telling me that Stella/me is always going to love eggs on an english muffin. Until she doesn't at least. All of that is wrapped up in the illusion of Stella/me. It's all part of that made up story. It shores up the story of Stella, that she choose what she likes and that was eggs. But the truth is that eggs happened because eggs happened. The window was opened because the window was opened. Not because Stella likes it opened.....but because it was opened.

I've been watching this for a couple of days now, since the recognition that it's just raining. That next morning when I came to my meditation space, instead of sitting and doing my usual, an urge to get up and go to the local CVS to pick up some plastic spoons the room needed rose. I got up and went. The fact that this was "new" wasn't lost on me. On the way back another urge to stop and get a decaf coffee (this is really strange. I drink water.) And I could feel the questioning of whether to do it or not. And remembering it's raining, I wondered how it would go...and like getting up out of bed, one step was going straight towards my building and the next was in the road, crossing it to the coffee shop.

It feels a bit like when trying to watch thoughts...all of a sudden it gets really quiet. Watching for decisions feels like that too. There's a lot of thoughts that surround the moment where movement from one direction to another happens but that moment is very quiet, feels non-existent almost. The surrounding thoughts makes it feel like Stella/me is deciding but so far there is no moment where the decision is made. Of course, the thoughts can't know what the next moment is!!! Thoughts can only pick up once what happens, happens. If stella/me had bought watermelon yesterday instead of eggs, the story, thoughts would have supported the story using that as the reason why watermelon had been chosen... that's why the "process" of making a decision feels like a leap across a chasm instead of a steady path....wow!

All day, from thing to thing, most decisions when looked at with thoughts surrounding them, seem to belong to Stella/me, but that gap from one path to the next is consistent. It SEEMS like a decision is being made but there's no decision maker there. It's just empty. And then the next thing happens.

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,
Your description is quite complicated with intellectual reasonings. I would like to ask you to write about your experience as if you were trying to tell it to an eight-year old child. Use langue and expressions that an eight-year old can understand.

I think you are telling me that Stella/me is always going to love eggs on an english muffin. Until she doesn't at least

How can Stella/me love eggs, if Stella/me is just a concept?

The surrounding thoughts makes it feel like Stella/me is deciding but so far there is no moment where the decision is made.

Can an imagined character (Stella) make decisions?

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Vivien

[StellaA]

Your description is quite complicated with intellectual reasonings. I would like to ask you to write about your experience as if you were trying to tell it to an eight-year old child. Use langue and expressions that an eight-year old can understand.
I think you are telling me that Stella/me is always going to love eggs on an english muffin. Until she doesn't at least
How can Stella/me love eggs, if Stella/me is just a concept?

I understand that Stella/me is a concept. This was in response to your comment that we are not after changing the experience into a different state where “the ‘sense of I’ never appears again. Perhaps I didn’t understand your comment.

The surrounding thoughts makes it feel like Stella/me is deciding but so far there is no moment where the decision is made.
Can an imagined character (Stella) make decisions?

No, everything that Stella/me says, does, doesn’t do, doesn’t say, thinks, supposes or doesn’t suppose is not real. If looked at closely it dissolves like an ice cube on hot summer pavement. The moment of “decision” is an empty space and what happens after, just happens. It is not effected by Stella/me’s supposed thoughts/actions because there is no one there.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it completely clear that there is no I/me choosing or deciding?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?

Yes, it is clear that there is no person/self

If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

The only time things seem muddled is when it is forgotten that what is happening does NOT depend on any thought, sight, action. It is free from all things that previously were thought to tie it down or effect it in any way. In looking that is sometimes forgotten and weight and meaning is given to thoughts that arise instead of just looking. This clouds things for a bit.

I cannot tell you how grateful I am for your time and guidance. It is seen how easily looking can change into thinking and confuse. So many thanks!

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,

I cannot tell you how grateful I am for your time and guidance. It is seen how easily looking can change into thinking and confuse. So many thanks!

You are very welcome :)

The only time things seem muddled is when it is forgotten that what is happening does NOT depend on any thought, sight, action. It is free from all things that previously were thought to tie it down or effect it in any way. In looking that is sometimes forgotten and weight and meaning is given to thoughts that arise instead of just looking. This clouds things for a bit.

Yes, this is normal.

But please check…
What is it that forgets that ‘what is happening doesn’t depend on any thought, sight, action’?

Yes, it is clear that there is no person/self

Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

What is the main difference from when you first started this exploration to now? How does it feel to realise this?

Has anything changed? What hasn't changed?

Is seeking still going on?

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

While guiding, when/where (the point in the thread) did you sense a shift?

Vivien

[StellaA]

But please check…
What is it that forgets that ‘what is happening doesn’t depend on any thought, sight, action’?

When thoughts arise and looking is second, it’s like falling asleep. One thought snags onto another and another. So it’s a process that seems to forget.

Yes, it is clear that there is no person/self
Can you say with 100% certainty that you have realised that there is no separate self as it is thought to be?

There is still awareness of Stella/me as an illusion, a collection of thoughts and beliefs, recognized by other personalities. There is a hesitancy to use “100% certain” because this is still new and there are moments that happen where thoughts, old habitual thoughts, are present and given weight and meaning, as mentioned before.

What is the main difference from when you first started this exploration to now? How does it feel to realise this?

The main difference is that this moment is unfolding without Stella/me or anyone else’s help or effected by those illusions. The moment is unfolding just as it is.

It’s a mixed bag of reactions that have arisen.

Shock. Really? All that has been thought all these years was just some ridiculous merry-go-round? The idea if you try hard, you’ll make a difference?

Dismay. Stella/me is nothing but a lie. All those billions of cherished beliefs were lies. No need to strive. No need for “me.”

Emptiness. Doesn't feel like a bad thing...just a lot of space. The body sits and rocks. No pressing needs, wants, desires... like everything is stalled. Just this. So much of what was is not here any more. Thoughts, worries, desires, if they do rise, disappear very quickly. Thoughts of what life is going to be like from here on rise and disappears.

Freedom. All that was just mentioned have been anchors, chains, unending pain and futile endeavors that now can just be let go of. Stella/me isn’t in charge of anything. She doesn’t even exist. There’s only the moment unfolding.

So much of life before was "lived" in thought. Other than when I do this...write to you...there's little thought fully engaged with. Practical stuff, sure. Turn right, turn left. Dodge that hornet's nest...but not "why did that happen? What did I do to cause that? They did that on purpose...how dare they?" Some but not much, and mostly it's just seen and released.

Has anything changed? What hasn't changed?

Actually, mostly everything is pretty much the same as it was. (Except for the changes you requested when we started) There’s waking, eating, sleeping, typing, reading, talking... thoughts arise but are more seen than believed....emotional states seem to have settled down...there is much more quiet appearing. Moments of peace and flow.

Is seeking still going on?

Each day there is checking for your email to hear if the understanding shared the day before was illusion based or based on looking. But much of the voracious “eating” of other’s experiences seems to have stopped showing up. What else is there to look for?

Is there anything that you need clarified...anything you are not clear about?

Nothing rises.

While guiding, when/where (the point in the thread) did you sense a shift?

Three moments
• The person yelling at the rain to stop raining.
◦ This was the beginning. How absurd for anyone to do this. What’s happening is happening. Yelling or trying to make it different is just plain stupid. But there was still an idea of a “me” being there, yelling.
• It’s just raining.
◦ There’s no one there yelling. It’s just happening the way it’s happening. This still had a bit of connection with actions of this form, environment, thoughts...might be interacting with what was happening.
• What is happening is free of any thought, action or belief.
◦ This is like the release in the belief of cause and effect. Life unfolds as it does unbound by anything. This was seen when watching for decisions being made by Stella/me. The gap of emptiness and resulting story of a “decision.”
◦ The illusion of thought is that if A does B then C will happen. So A works really hard at doing B. If C does happen, A declares a belief in B. If C does not happen then A chastises herself and works harder at B to get C. All of which is not real, is not true.
◦ The thought bubble tells a story to explain what unfolds in connection with the illusory self to give the illusory impression that A has something to do with what is unfolding...when there's no connection and no "self" to make those decisions.

The last one was the big ice breaker. And I know there is a thought that comes back and says, “then why not just sit on a park bench and do nothing.”... Ha! Like there’s anyone who exists who decides they will sit on a bench and do nothing! Life unfolds as it does unbound by anything.

Again, thank you,
Stella

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,

There is still awareness of Stella/me as an illusion, a collection of thoughts and beliefs, recognized by other personalities.

Do you expect that Stella/me should stop appearing?
Or that the self/me should be constantly seen/recognized as an illusion?

And what do you mean by ‘recognized by other personalities’?

There is a hesitancy to use “100% certain” because this is still new and there are moments that happen where thoughts, old habitual thoughts, are present and given weight and meaning, as mentioned before.

I understand what you mean but it seems that there is an expectation here that some sort of experience which was not happening before should be switched on permanently?

You wrote before:

The only time things seem muddled is when it is forgotten that what is happening does NOT depend on any thought,

Is there an expectation that the forgetting should never happen?
That the recognition that the self is just an illusion should be ON 24/7?

Is there a self/YOU that forgets?

When thoughts arise and looking is second, it’s like falling asleep. One thought snags onto another and another. So it’s a process that seems to forget.

And who/what is concerned if there is forgetting or not?
Is forgetting a problem? For who/what?

As you say it’s now possible to notice the way that thoughts create an illusion. You may find that this noticing keeps happening many times naturally but maybe not all the time.

The illusion only needs to be seen for a split second. But many times.

Seeing through the self doesn’t mean to get into a STATE where there are no more forgetting about this illusion.

We are not looking for a different experience (than what is), but for the FACTS of reality.

Vivien

[StellaA]

Hi Vivien,
So today is long...and it loops a bit but here's hoping it makes some sense.

Do you expect that Stella/me should stop appearing?

Hmmm... no. Stella/me is part of what is happening. And I don't mean as anything real but as a body form, living, moving interacting with other "people/you". That's what I meant by personalities. The perceived forms moving around that are seen. They are labeled and perceived.

Here's an example. Today I went to the grocery store. The store was very busy and there weren't a lot of parking spots. One car started to back out and I prepared to take its place. A minute later, another car entered that row and I put on my blinker to let them know, I was already planning on taking the space. Which I did. The other driver in the other car honked at me several times as they drove by. A state of annoyance rose up, a thought "too bad buddy, I had my blinker on." rose up.

Is Stella/me there? In the typing above the word "I" was purposely used. That's the process that gets used through the day. Someone asks who drove into the parking space and the response is, "I did." Who is I? Stella/me. Is Stella/me there? No. But the way this world works, it's a useful label for the form that drove that car into the space. If it had ended there, I think that would have been living as no-self. Things happen. States arise and they pass away. Thoughts come and go. Next moment.

I thought about that encounter after it happened. Realized that the feelings that rose were a state, part of what happened. Where before I might have been hard on myself, chastised myself for not being polite, for having those feelings of "too bad buddy" and irritation, this time, they had just disappeared.

The process is seen like this, 1) part of what seemed to help ease the response in the moment was that thought that "this is a state. it shows up and it will go." 2) the moment was being looked at in retrospect. Everything had already happened. 3) Comparing what happened in this moment to a previous moment, seemed to indicate that something had changed. 4) An assessment is made that things are getting better. This work is helping.

BUT...
This whole thing that I just relayed in italics, is a story that was put together after the fact. No one decided to remember that states arise and go on their own. That thought showed up. And it was looked at, recognized but AFTER the moment to give a reason why the irritation had dissipated in the first place! THIS is Stella/me. The story of a person built out of thoughts, cause and effect, reassuring itself that it's personal actions mean something, result in change, And Stella/me does hope that she'll "be better" and "get it." But that too, is just more of the story. It is true that the act of looking seems to be seeing the story more than it did but that can only been done in retrospect and so is part of the story. And it will continue until it doesn't.

The moment unfolds free of the story. It all just happens. And every time Stella/me tries to assess what is going on, why it's going on, what meaning it has, she builds her story a bit more. There's just looking...just what is happening right now.

Or that the self/me should be constantly seen/recognized as an illusion?

Well, hmmm... yes. Once truly seen as an illusion, there is an expectation that it will always be recognized as untruth. Yet, even as that was written, the word expectation sent a warning signal that that thought might be off the mark. What happens, happens, free of any expectation. There isn't any way to foretell what will arise. Who would be expecting anything? Just this.

And what do you mean by ‘recognized by other personalities’?

Other forms "people/you" that refer to this form as "stella/me"

There is a hesitancy to use “100% certain” because this is still new and there are moments that happen where thoughts, old habitual thoughts, are present and given weight and meaning, as mentioned before.

I understand what you mean but it seems that there is an expectation here that some sort of experience which was not happening before should be switched on permanently? 

You wrote before:
The only time things seem muddled is when it is forgotten that what is happening does NOT depend on any thought,
Is there an expectation that the forgetting should never happen?
That the recognition that the self is just an illusion should be ON 24/7?

Ok, so here's where the confusion might be. Thoughts about Stella/me happen. There is no control over what thoughts arise. Even though looking may have shown that there is no Stella/me, that does not stop those thoughts from happening. But if ???who???? decides to focus on looking at what arises, thoughts that arise, ???who??? can recognize that a particular thought is untrue. So the expectation is that there is something that can be harnessed to "look closely" and see the truth. When we started this process you requested that I restrain from certain activities, to put my focus on your questions. And true, I could find no Stella/me but what complied with the requests?

Truly what the answer that came to me was "no one" and there wasn't anyone doing what was asked, it was just life unfolding. One day this form stella/me didn't know about LU and another day what happened was that Stella/me did become aware of it. One day Stella/me was real and one day she was seen as not. Stella/me thinks she's concentrating but that's just what happened as part of life unfolding. "SHE" had nothing to do with it.

In retrospect a story can be spun, can look back and say, "Yes, I heard about LU from Eswhar's talk at Awakening Together. That brought me there and then I got Vivien as a guide and I followed her instructions and little by little I got what she was pointing to." but that's Stella's story of how she guides and decides her "life." But in truth, there is no one deciding, focusing other than as part of life as it unfolds. No consultations with Stella/me to figure out how she wants to do anything.

Is there a self/YOU that forgets?
When thoughts arise and looking is second, it’s like falling asleep. One thought snags onto another and another. So it’s a process that seems to forget.

And who/what is concerned if there is forgetting or not?

No one.

Is forgetting a problem? For who/what?

There's no problem. No one for it to be problem for. Life unfolding. What happens, happens.

As you say it’s now possible to notice the way that thoughts create an illusion. You may find that this noticing keeps happening many times naturally but maybe not all the time.

The illusion only needs to be seen for a split second. But many times.

Seeing through the self doesn’t mean to get into a STATE where there are no more forgetting about this illusion.

We are not looking for a different experience (than what is), but for the FACTS of reality.

See this is kind of what confuses things. There's no one looking for anything, right? Again, just life unfolding. The words and retrospective stories trail in the sky like the tail of a comet and dissipate as quickly...it can't be any other way as there is no one to change it. I guess that's why talking about Stella/me gets difficult. And I guess why you pick up that there's an expectation that she disappear or at the very least is always seen as unreal. Thinking about this seems a pay grade higher than thinking can handle.

Right now, all that is known is that this moment is here, unfolding as it is.

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,

V: Or that the self/me should be constantly seen/recognized as an illusion?

S: Well, hmmm... yes. Once truly seen as an illusion, there is an expectation that it will always be recognized as untruth.

But look, is there a self/me when it’s not seen/recognized as an illusion?

Just because the self is seen through, it doesn’t mean that the illusion will be seen through 24/7. Not even close. Many people have the belief that seeing through the self means that the illusion will be seen as an illusion all the time, or at least most of the time. But this is not how it is.

Realising that there is no inherent self is just a beginning and not an ending. There are still many beliefs, patterns and emotions that will need clearing as not everything is rewritten in one fowl swoop. So please put aside all expectations that by the end of this exploration you should be seeing/feeling this 24/7. There has never been a separate self….ever…so things aren’t going to change. The only thing that changes is how life and the idea of a separate self are perceived.

Ok, so here's where the confusion might be. Thoughts about Stella/me happen. There is no control over what thoughts arise. Even though looking may have shown that there is no Stella/me, that does not stop those thoughts from happening. But if ???who???? decides to focus on looking at what arises, thoughts that arise, ???who??? can recognize that a particular thought is untrue. So the expectation is that there is something that can be harnessed to "look closely" and see the truth.

Let’s look at this a bit more closely.

But if ???who???? decides to focus on looking at what arises, thoughts that arise, ???who??? can recognize that a particular thought is untrue.

So the focus was on thoughts so far. Now you have to turn the attention around, and look for the one that is supposedly decides to focus on what arises and recognized that a thought is untrue.

This turning around is similar to doing a selfie on your phone. When you turn on the camera, the camera is focused on the object in front of you. So the focus is away from you. But then you press a button, and the camera makes a 180 degrees turn, and now it’s facing you, so you can take a selfie.

So LITERALLY turn the focus of attention with 180 degrees to the PLACE where the decider and recognizer seemingly resides. What do you find there?

. So the expectation is that there is something that can be harnessed to "look closely" and see the truth.

But is there ANYTHING ‘that can be harness to look closely and see the truth’?

See this is kind of what confuses things. There's no one looking for anything, right? Again, just life unfolding.

Is this clearly SEEN that there is no one looking for anything, or is it rather a logical conclusion?

Turn the attention to the ONE that supposedly looking. Can you find an entity there?
Can you find anything there?

Vivien

[StellaA]

Good morning Vivien,

Turn the attention to the ONE that supposedly looking. Can you find an entity there? 
Can you find anything there?

I have done this exercise, I have looked, and there's no one there. No entity. Just what is.

Let’s look at this a bit more closely.
But if ???who???? decides to focus on looking at what arises, thoughts that arise, ???who??? can recognize that a particular thought is untrue.
So the focus was on thoughts so far. Now you have to turn the attention around, and look for the one that is supposedly decides to focus on what arises and recognized that a thought is untrue."

"Now you have to turn the attention around,

Who or what is the "you" that needs to turn attention around? And implied is a decision to push the button. Prior to doing this work with you I would have said awareness is what turns attention to this object versus that one. But there's no one there! There's no you to turn attention to anything. If that is true, and we have looked (I have done the exercise) and there is no one, no self there. There is just what is happening here, now.

If attention turns around it is because that is what is happening in the moment. As part of life unfolding. Freely.

Thoughts may arise and explain that this Stella/me did this exercise because Vivien asked her to but there's no Stella/me, no self, no Vivien, no self so how did that exercise happen? It just happened as part of life unfolding. The thought tries to make sense of it but it was just the way life unfolded. And any millions of things could have happened, this body didn't do the exercise, this body whined it was too hard, it didn't get it, not replied at all and the thoughts would have rose to explain each one of them was due to something that happened before...all lies.

For me the unconnectedness of this moment from any other moment is the only way to understand no self in the present moment.

Otherwise, there is always a "who" or "what" caused this to change, to be different, to stay the same...

"There are still many beliefs, patterns and emotions that will need clearing as not everything is rewritten in one fell swoop."

And who will clear out these beliefs, patterns and emotions? If there's no one there, no decision maker, who will do this? Stella/me can't do it, she's not here. Again, just life unfolding. There's no knowledge of the future. Just now.

Maybe it's just the limitations of language but look back....

Let’s look at this a bit more closely.
When you turn on the camera,
What do you find there?

Who or what are these questions addressed to? LOL! for that matter who am I typing this to? A body unit? The best answer that comes goes back to Awareness. As this body sits here, there is a sense of being aware. That's the looking. Nothing "personal". There's no self in it. It's just aware of life unfolding as it does.

I hope this is clearer about where this unit's understanding/seeing is at this moment. It's feeling much clearer here.

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,

For me the unconnectedness of this moment from any other moment is the only way to understand no self in the present moment.

Is no-self an intellectual understanding?
Or is it SEEN EXPERIENTIALLY that the self is just a fiction?

Maybe it's just the limitations of language but look back....

Yes. Just because it’s clear that there is no self or doer anywhere, it doesn’t mean that we stop using the words you/I/me/mine. We are free to use these words for the sake of conversation.

Who or what are these questions addressed to? LOL! for that matter who am I typing this to? A body unit? The best answer that comes goes back to Awareness. As this body sits here, there is a sense of being aware. That's the looking. Nothing "personal". There's no self in it. It's just aware of life unfolding as it does.

Can you see what is happening here?

There is a clear seeing that there is no self anywhere, but then it’s grasped intellectually with a logical/intellectual conclusion that it must be awareness what is being addressed by these questions.

Can you find this thing called awareness in reality?
Is there both awareness AND objects?

The idea of awareness sounds like an idea you may have picked up through spiritual circles or through reading.

Right now it's a concept. Can you find it in reality?

there is a sense of being aware.

Sense = sensation

Sense (sensation) of being aware? How does being aware is sensed? By which of the 5 senses?

Is there an awareness to sense?

Vivien

[StellaA]

Hello Vivien,

For me the unconnectedness of this moment from any other moment is the only way to understand no self in the present moment.

Is no-self an intellectual understanding?
Or is it SEEN EXPERIENTIALLY that the self is just a fiction?

Was it the word “understanding” that triggered to ask if this statement was intellectual? I have seen that there is no one there and expressed that several times. It is that seeing that has prompted the comments made. And perhaps understanding is not necessary. Every moment unfolds as it does. Period.

Maybe it's just the limitations of language but look back....

Yes. Just because it’s clear that there is no self or doer anywhere, it doesn’t mean that we stop using the words you/I/me/mine. We are free to use these words for the sake of conversation.

Another try. As there is no one to focus attention (which you pointed out to me earlier in our conversations) how can you ask me to do so now? Yes, they are words but they are pointing to someone doing something, someone deciding to agree and do it. So that statement is a non-statement all together. I can’t control what the next moment will be, what will be seen or not seen. The moment will unfold. There’s no way to have me see there’s no one there and then ask that no one to do something. Life just unfolds and any thinking that I can change what the next moment will be is all part of the story.

That’s the only point trying to be shared. The seeing that even what we are doing in our conversing is just what it is, no expectations that “anyone” will “get” it. And even “putting attention” is a story. That accepting each moment is all there is exactly as it arrives. Getting simpler all the time.

Who or what are these questions addressed to? LOL! for that matter who am I typing this to? A body unit? The best answer that comes goes back to Awareness. As this body sits here, there is a sense of being aware. That's the looking. Nothing "personal". There's no self in it. It's just aware of life unfolding as it does.

Can you see what is happening here?
There is a clear seeing that there is no self anywhere, but then it’s grasped intellectually with a logical/intellectual conclusion that it must be awareness what is being addressed by these questions.

This is not an intellectual understanding. This is a lived experience. It is a felt sense of existence. Not personal, not specific, not willful. Yet ever here in every moment. A different word for the looking that’s been the foundation of what we’re doing here.

Can you find this thing called awareness in reality?

Like I said, yes....it is here every moment. And it is not a thing, it happens, all the time. More of a process, a flow but beyond words. It just is.

Is there both awareness AND objects?

This awareness/looking process is aware of objects, thoughts, sensations, movement, sound, light, and the absence of all of those as well.

The idea of awareness sounds like an idea you may have picked up through spiritual circles or through reading.

Of course the idea of awareness has come up in all the reading/talking/thinking done. But it is now an experience.

Right now it's a concept. Can you find it in reality?

Again, yes. It is a felt presence of existence. Not personal, not willful.

there is a sense of being aware.
Sense = sensation
Sense (sensation) of being aware? How does being aware is sensed? By which of the 5 senses?

It is what allows the 5 senses to appear so no the 5 senses cannot see it. There’s nothing to see. It is before all of them. If the body’s eyes close, it is sensed. If there is no sound, it is inwardly sensed. No name, no form, no beginning, no end. Just is. Life.

Is there an awareness to sense?

Yes. Not by the 5 senses. But any moment of looking has been a moment of awareness. One after another, flowing.

Do you not have a feeling of existence? Not as Vivien but as life? Perhaps it’s just the words being used. They are limited.

[Vivien]

Hi Stella,

What I am about to write might trigger resistance, anger, frustration or any other emotions. Please watch out for them.

When it’s seen that a seer, taster, smeller, feeler, thinker, etc. cannot be found, the identification often goes to the seeming appearance of a self-existent, self-aware awareness, which is the knower of everything that appears.

So the identification with the body and the senses (feeler, hearer, thinker, etc) is replaced with a subtle form of identification with a SEEMING awareness…. So there is still some sort of separate entity which is aware and holds and knows all experience (object).

So before, there was an identification of a separate self being the doer, the one that sees/hears/knows/experiences, etc.
And now, the identification is moved to a stand-alone independent impersonal awareness.

Now the doer is this awareness.
Awareness sees, hears, knows, looks… etc. and allows the 5 senses to appear.

So there is still a subtle form of an entity, just now it’s moved from the separate self to an impersonal awareness.
It’s a belief about separation.
But there is NO separation.

Do you not have a feeling of existence? Not as Vivien but as life?

No. Existence is a concept. A concept cannot be felt. ONLY SENSATIONS can be felt.

So no, there is no ‘feeling of existence’. There is ONLY sensations.
And only thoughts interpret / label these sensations as ‘the feeling of existence’.

Not as Vivien but as life?

This questions shows that there is an identification here.

So far, the word ‘I’ was equated to this body-mind with a separate self.
Now the identification is moved to life/awareness.

This ties back to the beginning of our conversation, when we talked about expectations.
You wrote in your intro:

I have learned in my travels that the sages say we are One. One Self. How is it then possible that there could be all these little selves running around?
And perhaps, even the One Self is not the truth either.

So there is no One Self, or Awareness that is hiding in the background waiting for objects to appear to know them.

V: There is a clear seeing that there is no self anywhere, but then it’s grasped intellectually with a logical/intellectual conclusion that it must be awareness what is being addressed by these questions.

S: This is not an intellectual understanding. This is a lived experience. It is a felt sense of existence.

You wrote: “This is a lived experience. It’s a felt sense of existence”
But only sensation can be felt.
And just thoughts add the label to these sensations as ‘existence’.

Check this out in experience.
See if the sensations themselves suggest in any way that they are the ‘felt sense of existence’, or only thoughts suggest so?

V: Is there both awareness AND objects?

S: This awareness/looking process is aware of objects, thoughts, sensations, movement, sound, light, and the absence of all of those as well.

You are saying that there is separation.

There is a separate impersonal awareness that is aware of objects, thoughts, etc.

So this assumes that there are 3 things present:

1. There is an independent separate impersonal awareness
2. There are separate objects, separate thoughts, separate sensations, etc.
3. And 1&2 are linked with the awareness aware-ing ability

But is this what experience shows?

Is there a thought + the awareness of it?
Where does the thought end and the awareness of it starts?
Where is the dividing line between the thought and the awareness of it?

Is this awareness you talk about something separate from all the rest?
Looking happens - how do you know awareness is what is looking?

Does this awareness have a shape, a location, a weight? Can you point to this awareness?
Is awareness something other than, different to, or separate from experience (what is)?

Can you find anything at all that is called "awareness", or do you just find experience (what is)?

In other words, is there a knower and the known? Or is there only the known?

V: Right now it [awareness] is a concept. Can you find it in reality?

S: Again, yes. It is a felt presence of existence. Not personal, not willful.

HOW do you know that the sensation that is felt is the ‘felt presence of existence’?
HOW do you know that this sensation is awareness that is aware of everything else?

It [awareness] is what allows the 5 senses to appear so no the 5 senses cannot see it. There’s nothing to see. It is before all of them. If the body’s eyes close, it is sensed. If there is no sound, it is inwardly sensed.

This is an idea, a thought speculation only.

If awareness cannot be experienced by the 5 senses, it cannot be seen, touched, heard, smelled, tasted, then HOW on Earth do you know that there is an entity called awareness that allows the 5 senses to appear?

Has this awareness ever been SEEN to allow the 5 senses to appear?

Does the seeing, hearing, touching, smelling, tasting needs approval or allowance form anything else?
Or they are just there without anything doing them or allowing them?

HOW do you know that there is an awareness before the 5 senses?

If the body’s eyes close, it is sensed

HOW awareness is sensed if not with the 5 senses?
Is there a magical 6th sense hiding somewhere of sight?
HOW do you know that what is sensed is awareness and not sensation?

V: Is there an awareness to sense?

S: Yes. Not by the 5 senses. But any moment of looking has been a moment of awareness. One after another, flowing.
This is a pure speculation.

Take a cup or any object into your hands. And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses. Can you?

Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?

HOW could awareness be senses outside of the 5 senses?

Dear Stella, what you label as awareness is nothing else than plain sensations.

I asked lots of questions this time. Please read my post several times (especially if there is resistance) and look at each questions very carefully. Be careful to avoid any knee-jerk automatic reaction, and really look what experience shows.

Vivien