How does one still live without self?

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

Before guiding in detail about your questions, let's get another tool into your tool box.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you love?

Just yes or no.I don't need the content of thoughts.

I'll assume you can find something.

Next, scan your body, particularly in your torso, and describe any physical sensations (things bodies can feel, such as tightness, heaviness, lightness, temperature, etc.) you find & name their location.

Thank you!

[iknownothing]

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you love?

Just yes or no.I don't need the content of thoughts.

Yes.

I'll assume you can find something.

Next, scan your body, particularly in your torso, and describe any physical sensations (things bodies can feel, such as tightness, heaviness, lightness, temperature, etc.) you find & name their location.  

Chest feels tight, like shards of glass, icy, crystals breaking all over my chest. My stomach feels queasy, like a wet towel being rung out, twisted in knots and relaxed repeatedly, my bones feel heavy and slimy, overall I just feel icky. It feels like I've grown cactus spikes all over my skin and I long to shed the layer of spines.

[Anastacia42]

Hi!

In the 30 years or more that I've been asking that question, yours is the most graphic & detailed description I've ever received! Do you write for a living?

So, good, yes. In general, it hurts. If it hurts, you are lying. Now, I do not expect you to believe that right away. I expect you to test this in your life. Notice when you feel a sensation of tightness & icky & hurt, etc or anything in that "family" of feelings. See if you can find a lie there.

Yes, truth generally feels the opposite way, relaxed, looser, good.

So back to your previous post.

Sensations are the actual experience of an emotion. Emotion is the label we give to sensations. Or a reporter trying to explain a symphony.

Yes, You've got half of it. Emotions are sensation plus thought arising. But not the content. Yes, similar to a reporter trying to explain a symphony (AE is hearing).

Dog standing by the door = seeing
Dog scratching the door = hearing
Dog panting = hearing

Previously, you told me something about letting the dog out. So wouldn't there also be thought arising?

Doesn't that then mean that if I'm not directly experiencing my dog for instance (I've left the house or left her) that she stops being real? If I can't see her or otherwise directly experience her, she ceases to be real?

That is an age old meditation question. If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound?

We have to go beyond our conditioned, trained, every day thinking, to get an answer that lies beyond the world were familiar with.

The same is true with the rest of your questions about outer space et cetera.

Doesn't this really limit life?

That & many of your questions are best answered by your LOOKING. By looking and seeing through appearances, you will be able to answer this for yourself.

Speaking of limiting life, what about God? Unless God is a sensation, but "feeling" God's presence usually is related to a thought. Thought contents aren't real, ergo God can't be real? I'm not sure I like where this rabbit hole is going.

First, you do not have to go down this rabbit hole. It is completely your "choice." You can tell me you want to stop at any time.

Second, we can look at everything except God for a while. And you can come to your own conclusions. I'm not selling anything.

Yes, my training is in psychology and I know about the responses we have when we imagine something. It can get confusing to mix other disciplines with what we do here. We ask you to drop those during your time learning to see no South. You can pick them backup when you're done, if you still want them.

Let's stick to our exercises. You'll be able to answer these questions for yourself.

It's far better for you to come up with your own answers. I can't give me mine very much. All I can do is point.

I do love how you ask what is it you are not seeing. That is exactly the right question.

What we do not see is reality. What we do not see is the truth. We were taught so many labels and so many things and it can be a challenge to shake them. Don't worry, the world will still be there. And yes, if you walk out in front of a car, you will die. There's a whole different way of looking at this and that is what we guide to here. With no self it all looks very different.

And remember, you are already living with no self. There's just a story overlaid.

Any more on these before we continue?

Loving,

[Anastacia42]

I missed a couple of typos. South should be self.

And I can't give you mine.


I often post these on my cell phone with talk to text which isn't always accurate.

Thanks,

[iknownothing]

In the 30 years or more that I've been asking that question, yours is the most graphic & detailed description I've ever received! Do you write for a living? 

Thank you for the compliment. I actually don't *yet* write for a living. It's one of the many reasons I started down this path - writing is my life blood and yet it invokes 1,000+ stories, fears, anxieties, etc. When I read your question, I felt like I had been slapped across my face (not digging into this any deeper, I know it's a story). I try so hard to hide my "writing" and yet you saw it (and my life blood). It's simultaneously beautiful and gut-wrenching to be so seen.

See if you can find a lie there.
Yes, truth generally feels the opposite way, relaxed, looser, good. 

Wow, just reading that elicits quite a strong reaction for me. I plan on sitting with it as you suggest.

Previously, you told me something about letting the dog out. So wouldn't there also be thought arising? 

Yes, you are absolutely right. Funny how quickly I forgot the thought and yet the rest of the actual experience stuck in recall.

Any more on these before we continue?

No, your responses have been most helpful and clarifying. Thank you Stacy! I appreciate your patience and support when addressing them. I am ready to continue with the exercises. 

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

Here is the next exercise to try:

Mind labeling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Post this list.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

Post this list, too.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one? (You can use what you just learned, that if it hurts you are lying.)

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.


Much love

[iknownothing]

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”. 

I am typing, I am smelling, I am breathing, I am thinking, I am hearing the computer keys make noise, I am hearing the computer fan make noise, I am thinking, I am exhaling quickly (relaxation), I am thinking, I am watching my fingers move, I am thirsty, I am drinking my water bottle, I am hearing the noise of the straw cap, I am thinking, I am typing again, I am thinking, I am hearing the door rattle, I am thinking, I am sighing, I am breathing, I am hearing the sound of air through my nose, I am feeling the air through my nose, I am feeling tightness in my upper back, I am feeling tired, I am feeling my eyes that feel tired and heavy, I am feeling my nose itch, I am feeling my hand touching my nose, I am feeling more relaxed as the itch is gone, I am breathing, I am typing, I am thinking, I am sighing, I am breathing, I am feeling my chest rise and fall, loosening, I am feeling my fingertips on the keyboard, I am thinking, I am feeling my feet on the floor, I am thinking, I am seeing the computer screen have lots of issues, lights flickering, I am thinking, I am making changes to the computer screen, I am thinking, I am noticing that the computer screen stopped flickering, I am typing, I am sighing, I am feeling my feet move off the floor to the chair, I am thinking.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.  

Typing, sitting, fingers typing on keyboard keys, noise of keys, swallowing, breathing, sighing, watching the words on the screen appear, thinking, feeling feet on the floor, breathing, sighing, thinking, feeling fingertips on the keys, feeling the pressure of the keys, hearing the sound of the keys, feeling body relax, thinking, feeling an itch nose, feeling the keyboard keys, feeling the pressure and tension of the keys, the weight under fingertips, hearing the sound of the keys, thinking, hearing the car noise outside, thinking, feeling the chair underneath, feeling the table, thinking, sighing, hearing the computer fan turn on, pausing, feeling an itch on my hand, scratching, feeling the chair become uncomfortable, moving around to find comfort, feeling upper back tightness, feeling heavy eyes, feeling fingers become uncomfortable, wringing out fingers and hands, sighing, thinking, more itching and scratching, sighing, thinking.

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one? (You can use what you just learned, that if it hurts you are lying.)

No, the "I" actually seems pretty irrelevant. Everything happened without "I" or "me"

2. What is here without labels?
Experience, activities

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?
Just describe it

4. Did you notice any differences in the body? Describe this.  

My body felt way more uncomfortable removing the "I", and it got more uncomfortable as the exercise continued. Including the "I" felt more natural and comfortable.

Side note - I know you said before that I likely wouldn't believe "that if it hurts you are lying" and you are right, I'm having a hard time with that. So much of my previous experience (which I know we are suppose to set aside for these exercises and I'm trying) suggested to push into the spaces that cause the most discomfort; as in if it hurts, if it's uncomfortable, there's probably something there that needs illuminating. Or maybe perhaps because it's uncomfortable, you're lying to yourself and the only thing there is a story.

How does one discern what is comfortable is real and not more stories? The actual experience route? I'm still trying to understand one can use actual experience to make decisions. This exercise helped me see that the "I" really isn't necessary to experiencing life, but is it really as easy as just leaving out the "I" and notice that "deciding" is the verb of the experience, the decision content doesn't matter? We don't have to discuss that, this can be completely rhetorical but I "write" my thoughts and it helps me work through them.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

Thank you. It's fine to keep expressing your fears.

Really, only 2 things can keep you from seeing: fear and expectations.

So much of my previous experience (which I know we are suppose to set aside for these exercises and I'm trying) suggested to push into the spaces that cause the most discomfort; as in if it hurts, if it's uncomfortable, there's probably something there that needs illuminating. Or maybe perhaps because it's uncomfortable, you're lying to yourself and the only thing there is a story.

Exactly, many methods ask you to push into the discomfort to discover the truth beyond the lies that are causing the discomfort.

We do not teach ACIM here at all, as I mentioned. However, since I studied it for 25 years & you like it, I'll occasionally refer to it for your comfort.

You're asking often about decisions. ACIM asks us not to make decisions, suggesting that the student ASK what to do. Chapter 30 goes into that in detail.

https://acourseinmiraclesnow.com/course ... decision/
There will be exercises on this for you soon.

This exercise helped me see that the "I" really isn't necessary to experiencing life, but is it really as easy as just leaving out the "I" and notice that "deciding" is the verb of the experience, the decision content doesn't matter?

How much of "Gateless Gatecrashers" have you read?

We do not leave out the "I." We observe that there isn't one. That's very different.

You nailed it:

No, the "I" actually seems pretty irrelevant. Everything happened without "I" or "me"

Ready to move on or do you have more questions?

Loving,

[iknownothing]

How much of "Gateless Gatecrashers" have you read?

 
I skimmed all of it and read a few of the stories in it. I know everyone is on their own journey but it seems like the people in that book arrived at "seeing" in fewer exercises. Has me wondering what I'm missing. Their arrival at "seeing" seemed so epiphany-like...

Ready to move on or do you have more questions?

Ready to move on. 

[iknownothing]

And thank you for the ACIM reference - I understand that's not the point of this exercise but it really helped calm and quiet the "questioning" part which seems hell bent on distracting me from this process.

[Anastacia42]

Thank you, Catherine,

And thank you for the ACIM reference - I understand that's not the point of this exercise but it really helped calm and quiet the "questioning" part which seems hell bent on distracting me from this process.

You're welcome. Yes, it does that. We just ignore it for now. It's not "bad," but it's trying to run the show and that doesn't work.

The stories in "Gateless Gatecrashers," may have been chosen, in part, for their brevity. Also, Ilona was guiding using a slightly different method. She directs people only to see no self. My mentor used these exercises to make sure people aren't confused after they do see. Kind of doing some extra prep work. So, yes, it takes a little longer. When you SEE, it will be unmistakable. You will know.

Here is the next one:

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’ , what is the actual experience?

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’?


Yes, we're trying to shake the mind from its mooring, see what is Actual Experience and not lazily stick with unprovable ideas. We are looking for truth, reality as it is, not as we have labeled it. ("My thoughts are images I have made." Lesson 15)

Have fun!

[iknownothing]

These exercises and your approach have been really helpful - it's the first time I haven't come face first with a giant, insurmountable wall and fallen over... I hit the walls with this guiding process and then find another way around, to keep looking beyond the giant wall in front of me. I noticed today that something in my body feels like it's shifting. It's a new sensation. More grounded, almost safe in a way I've never felt before. Once again, I know it's just a reporter trying to report but I wanted to share that I am noticing new sensations.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’ , what is the actual experience?

I see red, and I think (green). 

But the label itself has no meaning. It's weird. There's nothing there. Perhaps a thought of the color? But I have to put additional effort into that. You could have written a label in another language and I may have had no idea what you were talking about unless you colored it a certain way, and then I would have viewed the color and assumed the word meant the color.

Is the colour red ‘experienced’, or is the colour green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Aren't they both in different ways - red is viewed, and then a thought arises. Green though really is the content of a thought so perhaps only red is actually experienced.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

It's not one-to-one. The label suggests something else.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

Green is nothing more than a label. You could have used any other word and put it in red coloring. The label is truly, in this situation, irrelevant.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Nope.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no affect whatsoever on ‘reality’? 

Labels don't matter.

I feel like I'm entering the Twilight Zone. Nothing is making sense, yet everything is making sense. Just sitting with the sensations.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine!

Excellent LOOKING!

Green though really is the content of a thought so perhaps only red is actually experienced.

Perhaps? Or is only red experienced? And, truthfully, we made up the label "red," too. It could be called K29. (And probably is on some color palette somewhere.)

Labels don't matter.

Correct! Go to the head of the class.

I feel like I'm entering the Twilight Zone. Nothing is making sense, yet everything is making sense. Just sitting with the sensations.

Perfect! That's exactly the right sensation.

Here's the next one:

Friend/Stranger

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".

Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".

Compare these thoughts.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".

After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.

Is there a difference?

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?



Just LOOK. You can SEE.

Loving,

[iknownothing]

Perhaps? Or is only red experienced? 

You're right, "red" is a label too. Even K29. This gets so tricky in that relating to other people requires some kind of communication, some kind of labeling.

Friend/Stranger
Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".
Compare these thoughts.

Okay, both are thoughts, both have sensations (friend thought feels open and warm, expansive in the body, while stranger thought feels colder, prickly, less open). Both are labels describing how I relate to humans or even animals.
How I experience a friend can also be cold and prickly, that's not just reserved for strangers. So friend and stranger are just labels - how I actually experience them really only happens when I experience one. I may feel flirtatious with a stranger and therefore be open and warm, the labels really don't actually capture the real experience of their. They are a bastardized form of various stories I have of experiences with the label. They aren't real. I'm trying to categorize a myriad of human interactions into 6-7 letter words.

Is there a difference in these thoughts?

Yes, but I seemed to have worked through that difference so no. They are the same - meaningless labels designed to boil down hundreds of various interactions into a label that contains various stories, beginning with "remember that time when".

Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Different content, different stories.

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.
Is there a difference?

Shit....why is this so hard to SEE. I get where this exercise is going but when getting to "me" it blows up.
Based on the logic above, there should be no difference. Me is just a label just like friend or stranger are labels. That I see. Why does "me" feel so much better known and understood? I actually don't know "me" just like I don't know friend or stranger. Why is this so hard to accept? (rhetorical).

"Me" is used to describe what? Nothing. There's actually nothing there. Just like under friend there is nothing there, just like under stranger there is nothing there. It's a word but that doesn't mean that I don't exist, it just means there isn't a label? I am so much more than the label "me" that's like a word to try to quantify my existence, like a reporter reporting on a symphony. It fails to capture the actual experience of this human's reality.
I write this without feeling it. Like I see it but am choosing not to accept it. There's this distance and wall.

Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"? 

Have you ever read the book "There's a Monster at the End of this Book?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JVK0-4HQTY. Basically, Grover is super scared that there is a monster at the end of this book and tries to convince the reader to not turn any more pages so as to prevent the reader from getting to the monster at the end of the book. Turns out, the monster at the end of the book IS Grover, and he's fury and loveable.

I feel like that's what this process is trying to accomplish, me seeing and accepting that the self (Grover) exists beyond any labels used to describe its existence. And I'm fury and loveable and everything I think I'm scared of doesn't actually exist.

I feel so stuck though. The "me" bit is really hard. I was really getting into the exercise until I got asked to look at "me" as a label. Then it all came crashing down and closing off.

All the thought contents are trying to prevent me from seeing that it's just the same person/same existence/it's all the same.

[Anastacia42]

Hi Catherine,

"Love is real.
Fear is uneeal.
Nothing real can be threatened.
Nothing unreal exists.
Herein lies the peace of God."

And I'm fury and loveable and everything I think I'm scared of doesn't actually exist.

Keep LOOKING. That's enough.

Let me know how things seem tomorrow.

Loving,