hide and seek

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

I can’t experience anything more than the present state of an object without thought. It’s only thought that tells me that this is the same room I came into an hour ago. The thoughts are not related. They are doing a commentary on action that ever-precedes them.

Excellent looking!

Immediately, “What about memory!” Comes up, but memory is a present thought content, I can't know if memory describes something actual.

Yes! We will investigate memory later.
Here are some statements based on our investigation so far. Please read them careful, and see if you are clear on them. If any of them are not totally clear, please let me know.

- In actual experience thoughts don’t come and go from anywhere. They just there when they are there. And when they are not there anymore, then they are just simply not there.
- The supposed ‘me’ has no power over thoughts. None.
- Thoughts just appear on their own, without anyone or anything doing it.
- There is nothing that is thinking thoughts. Thinking happens, or rather say thoughts appear but without a thinker. There is no thinker of thoughts.
- Thoughts have no power whatsoever. They cannot think or do anything.
- Thoughts have no volition. There might be thoughts about intentions, but not the thoughts themselves intending or wanting it. They just ‘talk’ about wanting or intending.
- In actual experience there is not even a mind. There might be thoughts about a ‘mind’, but ‘mind’ as such cannot be found.

Look at each statement carefully. Is there anything in the above text that is not totally clear?

Here is an exercise.
Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self, put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, write down the thought itself (not just a mark). If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened, I wonder what is my daughter doing in school (‘my’ daughter), etc.

Let me know how you go and what you notice. Also please share with me what was written under others.
Then investigate the thoughts what was written under others. Are those thoughts really about others?

During the day, try to observe as many thoughts as you can. Particularly try to pay attention to narrating thoughts. Thoughts that are constantly narrating and judging what’s going on from the perspective of ‘me’.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[Forestfriend]

Hi Vivien,

Look at each statement carefully. Is there anything in the above text that is not totally clear?

I read these over for a long time. It took some pondering and they are totally clear.

Let me know how you go and what you notice. Also please share with me what was written under others.
Then investigate the thoughts what was written under others. Are those thoughts really about others?

Before setting a timer, I watched my thoughts for the whole morning. I have a suspicion now that there aren’t any thoughts that aren’t either about the self, or imply the self. The self is thought and maybe thinking is the self.
After lunch I set the timer. These are the thoughts that might be said to be without self:
Crow is cawing.
Neighbor is snipping bushes.
The bird water has a shiny reflection.
There is a cat stalking the rat.
Toothless is on the perch.
Dante’s shirt is still on the chair—been there for days.
It’s only sense (sight, sound) impressions that I can say not to be about self. And those impressions imply self, because ‘I am hearing the crow caw and I’m the one who learned the language to describe it. I have other associations to the sound of the crow
Are these thoughts really about others? It's my thought impressions of others that locate and form an image for me. I have an idea what a crow is, who my neighbor is, that it's water in the bowl since I put it there, that the cat is actually stalking the rat and the relationship between cats and rats. That the shirt belongs to someone I know. Even the sense impressions are riddled with my interpretations and associations.

During the day, try to observe as many thoughts as you can. Particularly try to pay attention to narrating thoughts. Thoughts that are constantly narrating and judging what’s going on from the perspective of ‘me’.
Let me know what you find.

Watched all afternoon. Rather unpleasant because mood was negative.
Continual narration of a complaining nature. Pain, family annoyance, not good enough, never get it right. Then accompanied the kid to the swimming pool and shifted to judging all the folk there, body comparisons, behavior, clothing. Not an afternoon to be proud of, but then that would be more ‘me’ thinking too.

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

Are these thoughts really about others? It's my thought impressions of others that locate and form an image for me. I have an idea what a crow is, who my neighbor is, that it's water in the bowl since I put it there, that the cat is actually stalking the rat and the relationship between cats and rats. That the shirt belongs to someone I know. Even the sense impressions are riddled with my interpretations and associations.

Yes! Nice observations.

As you’ve discovered, almost every thought, if not all, is about the self. Sometimes it might not be as obvious, but when looked at it a bit more closely, it turns out that these narrating thoughts are always about me (some way or another).

Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.
These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

Please read carefully the above sentences. Look if they are really true. Let me know what you find.

Here is an interesting exercise.
Go and make a cup of tea or coffee. As you do this notice whether a 'self' does it. Also notice if there are many or any moments in the whole procedure of going to the kettle, switching it on, getting the cup (etc) when 'you' control the process?

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?
Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?
Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?
Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?
Can a chooser be located?

Vivien

[Forestfriend]

Actually, these narrating thoughts create the illusion of the self.
These thoughts describes ‘what I am’.
They describe my past, present and future.
They produce a story of my life.
They describe how I feel, and what I have to do.
They describe what things in the world and others mean to me and can give to me.
These thoughts define who I am and what is my relationship to the world.

I have no disagreement with these statements. This is my experience.

How the decision is made what to make a cup of tea or coffee?

It is automatic, and also habitual

Do ‘you’ choose putting or not putting milk into the tea (or coffee)?

Automatic and habitual.

Is there a moment of choice or it happens automatically?

Can't find the moment of choice, and thought says " But I've believed that I make a choice for so long!"

Do ‘you’ 'make the cup of tea (or coffee) happen' or it just happens?

I can only see that it just happens. The commentary follows.

Can a chooser be located?

I can't locate a chooser. Looking for anything inside is just turning up emptiness. The self is such a continual driving story.
It takes a lot of maintenance to keep up the belief. I'm curious to see what happens when these machinations are not taken seriously.

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

You did a nice looking.

I'm curious to see what happens when these machinations are not taken seriously.

An expectation is hiding here. Yes, taking thoughts seriously can lessen, but it doesn’t mean that self or the thoughts won’t be taken seriously ever again. They will! Probably more often than one might expect. But upon each looking, it can be seen again and again that there is nothing behind those thoughts.

Let’s continue with looking at the process of decision making.

Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.
Watch very carefully.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?
Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?


Vivien

[Forestfriend]

Hi Vivien

How is the movement controlled?

I can’t tell. Thought comes up,”volition.” But that’s just a word. It doesn’t explain anything.

Does a thought control it?

I can’t see anything thought that controls it except those that come after the fact.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

There is none that I can see.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

I can’t find a who or what. It just happens, and the thoughts come after with explanatory offerings.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, I can’t find a personality doing choosing, but there is a body

When the head of a sunflower turns to the sun, what is moving the flower?

Googled it and had an interesting read. It’s cells that map circadian rhythms. But theres no thought process, and cells and rhythms are names we make for things, so answer is, it just happens.

Is there a ‘mover’ somewhere inside the flower to turn its head?

No mover in the sunflower.

When the hand is turning up and down, is there a ‘mover’ hidden somewhere inside the hand or the body performing the movement?

I don’t have a perception of a mover except a thought that comes after the motion.

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

F: Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

V: No, I can’t find a personality doing choosing, but there is a body

Ok, there is the body, and there are movements.

But where is the mover of the body?
But is there ANYTHING that is moving the body?

I don’t have a perception of a mover except a thought that comes after the motion.

Does the thought that comes after the movement made the body to move?

Is there any ACTUAL link in experience between the movement and the thought? – not just an assumed one, but an actual link or connection?

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?
Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?
What makes the body get up?
Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?
When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.
How does the decision happen exactly?
Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?
Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?
What makes the body to stand up?

Now let’s investigate intention.
Sit in a chair and observe how the intention of standing up happens.
How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?
While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?
What is it that made the intention to get up?

Now, zoom onto the intention (of getting up) very closely. Look at the intention itself directly.
Stare at the intention itself. Not the thoughts of “I intend to get up”, but THE intention itself.
Can you locate THE intention itself?
How the intention is actually experienced?

Vivien

[Forestfriend]

Hi Vivien

But where is the mover of the body?

I can’t locate the mover of the body. It’s an assumption. If something moves there is a mover. So who turns the earth?

But is there ANYTHING that is moving the body?

There is movement. I can’t find a ‘thing’.

Does the thought that comes after the movement made the body to move?

No way.

Is there any ACTUAL link in experience between the movement and the thought? – not just an assumed one, but an actual link or connection?

Certainly not an ACTUAL link, but definitely an assumed one pops up.

Lie down onto a bed. Observer very carefully how the decision arises to get up.

I did that this morning. I watched as the body popped out of bed without thinking about it at all.

Can a self be found making the body leave the bed?

No self can be found and one is not needed.

Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up comes from?

I have no idea.

What makes the body get up?

It just gets up—or not.

Is there a ‘you’ that commands the body?

Not really, just a ‘you’ that makes stories out of its movements.

When lying there, shout 'GET UP' internally as loudly as you can. Does that affect the outcome?

No, and in fact, even if I shout “sit down” or “darn a sock” getting up still happens.

Repeat this with sitting in a chair. Describe in detail the decision of standing up.How does the decision happen exactly?/quote]
The decision is wrapped up in the fact that this exercise has been proposed. But I cannot see the moment when a command to get up is given. It looks to be totally automatic.

Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?

It does sometimes, but it has nothing to do with the action, only the story about the action. The self says, “Well, I decided to do this and then it happened so I did it.” But there is no observation of anything doing anything at the time of action. The self is late.

Or does standing up just happen, or not, without any doer?

It happens without any doer. Quite remarkable.

What makes the body to stand up?

I really don’t know where the motivation comes from.

How is it known that there is an intention to stand up?

The message of the intention is in the content of thought—sometimes, like right now since I am taking a slow look at it, but when I got up this morning there was no previous thought of intention. But even if I sit here and think, “I intend to get up.” The moment of getting up is independent of the thought.

While sitting there, say internally several times ‘I intend to get up’. What happens?

Nothing. I’m still sitting here. Even though I have been told in psychology class that there is subtle physical response to thoughts of exercise, I have no awareness of that response. I eventually just stand up. I can’t predict the exact moment. I could use a timer and stand just when it rings, but it will still be an automatic response, no time needed for decision.

What is it that made the intention to get up?

It’s a movement of life acting in response to all the other movements.

Can you locate THE intention itself?

No, I can’t.

How the intention is actually experienced?

It’s not describable. It’s in the gap between the thoughts. There may be such a thing as intention, but I have no way to pin it down to something I can see.
Thanks for your patience

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

V: Does a self come in and take over, weighing pros and cons, looking at possible consequences?

F: It does sometimes, but it has nothing to do with the action, only the story about the action.

Are you saying that sometimes and ACTUAL self come in and take over?

The self says, “Well, I decided to do this and then it happened so I did it.” But there is no observation of anything doing anything at the time of action. The self is late.

Is there a self that is saying the above sentence?

Where is this self exactly?
Is this self inside the thoughts?
Or outside of thoughts?

Or maybe inside the head? Behind the eyes? Or where exactly?

“The self is late” – what self? Is there a self at all?
Where is this self EXACTLY thoughts ‘talk’ about?

But even if I sit here and think, “I intend to get up.”

“even if I sit here and thing” – where is the I that is sitting there?
Is there a self sitting on the chair?

“I think” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
Where is this ‘I’ that thinks?

V: What is it that made the intention to get up?

F: It’s a movement of life acting in response to all the other movements.

This is a thought story, it doesn’t come from looking at the experience. So let’s try it again. This time look at experience directly.

What is it that made the intention to get up?

V: How the intention is actually experienced?

F: It’s not describable. It’s in the gap between the thoughts. There may be such a thing as intention, but I have no way to pin it down to something I can see.

If there is such thing as intention, then it HAST TO BE FOUND.

Can an ACTUAL intent be found outside of the realm of thoughts?
So thoughts ‘talk’ about an intent, but is there REALLY an actual one?
Is there a real intent behind the words ‘intent’?
So what is the AE of intent?

Vivien

[Forestfriend]

Hi Vivien

Is there a self that is saying the above sentence?

There are thoughts, and there is content of thought. And the content is words and the words say things and if questions are asked the thought content replies and stories are in the thought content as well. It doesn’t need a self to take over, the thoughts ‘talk’ about anything and everything all by themselves.

Where is this self exactly?

The self is no-where. It’s a reference made by thought. Instead of “Typing.” Thought says, “I am typing.” It’s a fiction.

So is this self inside the thoughts?
Or outside of thoughts?

The self is a word in the thoughts.

Or maybe inside the head? Behind the eyes? Or where exactly?

There is no self.

“The self is late” – what self? Is there a self at all?

No there is no self at all. It is the main character in a story that is not true.

Where is this self EXACTLY thoughts ‘talk’ about?

The self does not exist. It is a word used in thought, or referred to by words like I or me, it is just a word.

“even if I sit here and think” – where is the I that is sitting there?
Is there a self sitting on the chair?

There is no I sitting on a chair. There is a thought, “I am sitting.”
The thought does not refer to an actual I.

“I think” – what does the word ‘I’ refer to in this sentence?
Where is this ‘I’ that thinks?

There is no I, it’s a convention of language. It could be left out of the sentence.

What is it that made the intention to get up?

Intention is a word in the content of thought. It doesn’t exist.

Can an ACTUAL intent be found outside of the realm of thoughts?

No, It’s only in the realm of thought.

So thoughts ‘talk’ about an intent, but is there REALLY an actual one?

No, thoughts talk about many things that are not actual, in fact words themselves are removed from actuality.

Is there a real intent behind the words ‘intent’?

No, intent is a thought concept.

So what is the AE of intent?

There is no AE of intent.

Thanks

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

V: So is this self inside the thoughts?
Or outside of thoughts?

F: The self is a word in the thoughts.

Yes! :) How much of this is an intellectual understanding, and how much of it coming from a clear seeing?

No, thoughts talk about many things that are not actual, in fact words themselves are removed from actuality.

Yes, nice observation. You did great looking.

Please put some chocolate (or something you think you shouldn’t eat or drink) in front of you. Look at it. Inspect it closely. Smell its delicious fragrance. And pay attention to emerging desire to eat it.

When the desire is there, pay close attention to the thought process.
See how thoughts list pros and cons why you should or shouldn’t eat the chocolate.
These opposing thoughts might even try to argue or convince each other what to decide.

What is it that is considering these options?
Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Now, make a decision, but whatever you decide, don’t eat the chocolate (yet). Rather just pay very close attention when the decision is made. Particularly pay attention to thoughts, as the decision is made.

Let’s say a thought appear: “I decided not to eat the chocolate”
So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?
Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?
How exactly the decision is made?

Now, do according to the decision. (Either eat or don’t eat the chocolate.)
What is it that performed the chosen action?

Vivien

[Forestfriend]

Hi Vivien, Thanks for your help and guidance.

Yes! :) How much of this is an intellectual understanding, and how much of it coming from a clear seeing?

I grab on to intellectual understanding. It gives me belief in myself that I am grasping the understanding. At the same time it can be known that I can never understand or hold on to anything since I am only a fictitious mental convention. Here when I am being asked to look this fiction is seen, there are other times when I forget to look and it is business as usual.

The choosing experiment:
What is it that is considering these options?

Thoughts are following, one after the other, “Shall I drink the beer; What if I am found out; It’s so good on a hot day; Could be seen as unsupportive to the non-drinker; Never would have thought of it if it weren’t for this exercise; Had to come up with something I might want to prohibit.

Is there anything that is listing the pros and cons, or only just thoughts appear about pros and cons? – look very carefully

Thoughts can be seen to follow one after the other without being able to see an agent creating them.

So the thought about the decision just appeared. What made that thought to appear?

It just popped up after the others.

Can you find the thing that made that decision, apart from the presence of the thought about the decision?

No, I can’t find anything other than the thought.

How exactly the decision is made?

A thought content says, “This is the decision.”

What is it that performed the chosen action?

The body.

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

I grab on to intellectual understanding. It gives me belief in myself that I am grasping the understanding. At the same time it can be known that I can never understand or hold on to anything since I am only a fictitious mental convention.

It’s important to not grab onto this intellectually. Since this is not an intellectual endeavor.
What we are doing here is quite the opposite.

We are investigating whether what intellect/thought says is in actually in line with experience.
Thoughts make all sorts of statements.
The whole illusion is created by THOUGHTS.

So what we are doing here is that we investigate EXPERIENTIALLY (and not by analytically, not by thinking) if what thoughts ‘claim’ are in line with experience.
So we are checking if thoughts are telling the ‘truth’.
Can you see the difference?

So it’s very important that with looking, you ALWAYS have to LOOK AFRESH and NEVER RELY ON MEMORY of previous looking. Why? Because if you rely on the memory of a previous looking in a form of a thought: “I know there is no self” without actually looking afresh for a self, then in that moment the no-self is just a belief. So every time it seems like or feels like as if there were a self, but you just remind yourself with the thought “there is no self”, then you just covering up one belief (the seemingly perceived self) with another belief (there is no self).

You might already doing this, looking with each questions, and not relying on memory, but I have to remind you about this, since it’s very easy to get into the habit of not looking again and again.

It’s the looking and looking and looking and not finding that brings about the realization.

So every time I ask a question, you always have to look afresh, to see it again and again what is being pointed it. Can we agree on this?

V: What is it that performed the chosen action?

F: The body.

But is there something somewhere inside the body that orchestrated the movements of the body to drink the beer?
Is there something inside the body moving it to perform an action?

Investigate the followings one-by-one very carefully. Spend several minutes with each question.

Is there a control over ‘sensations’?
Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?
Is there a control over ‘sounds’?
Is there a control over ‘image/color’?
Is there a control over ‘smells’?
Is there a control over ‘tastes’?

Is there a control over anything?

Vivien

[Forestfriend]

So what we are doing here is that we investigate EXPERIENTIALLY (and not by analytically, not by thinking) if what thoughts ‘claim’ are in line with experience.
Can you see the difference?

Yes, I see the difference. Words are not experience.

So it’s very important that with looking, you ALWAYS have to LOOK AFRESH and NEVER RELY ON MEMORY of previous looking. Why? Because if you rely on the memory of a previous looking in a form of a thought: “I know there is no self” without actually looking afresh for a self, then in that moment the no-self is just a belief.

Thank you for these statements! This is where I have been stuck for ages. When you ask me to look, I look, but most of the time I rely on memory.

So every time I ask a question, you always have to look afresh, to see it again and again what is being pointed it.
Can we agree on this?

Yes, certainly.

V: What is it that performed the chosen action?
F: The body.
But is there something somewhere inside the body that orchestrated the movements of the body to drink the beer?

No the movements happen spontaneously.

Is there something inside the body moving it to perform an action?

There is nothing there.

Investigate the followings one-by-one very carefully. Spend several minutes with each question.
Is there a control over ‘sensations’?

No

Is there a control over ‘thoughts’?

No

Is there a control over ‘sounds’?

No

Is there a control over ‘image/color’?

No

Is there a control over ‘smells’?

No

Is there a control over ‘tastes’?

No

Is there a control over anything?

Wow! No.

[Vivien]

Hi Forestfriend,

V: Is there a control over anything?

F: Wow! No.

Is it totally clear that there is no such thing a chooser?
Is it totally clear that there is no such thing as choice or free will?
If not, please write some examples when it seems to be otherwise.

Let’s start to investigate the body and sensations. The illusion of the self is not just simply coming from thoughts, but also from the belief that “I am the body” or “I have a body” or that this or that sensation is ‘me’ or the location of the ‘me’, or that this or that sensation is happening to ‘me’. So the thought label ‘this is me’ and the appearing sensations are welded together, creating a ‘sense of self’.

Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on verbal or visual thoughts:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc) before replying.

Vivien