Not sure if I have crossed the gate

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay, here you go.

For whom/what is it a “necessary functionality in life”?

No one, lol... just a thought labeling that idea.

Is there an author of thought?

No.

Is there a ‘you’ that brings forth the label ‘tree’ when the colour ‘tree’ appears, or does it appear automatically?

Automatically.

What if the word/thought ‘anitinus’ appeared instead. Would you know what it was pointing to? Would you know that it was a name for ‘tree’?

No, lol...

Here is a signpost that points to Moscow, London, Berlin etc. All of these signposts are labels that seemingly point to something. Do the signposts have any idea what they are pointing to? Does what they are pointing to actually exist in AE?

Its a funny image lol.... almost like a prop... of course it doesnt point to 'anything', just colors, labels.

Can depth actually be experienced?
Is there really a 3 dimension or only 2?

Look at the white colour labelled ‘clouds’. Are those far or further away from the tree?
And is the tree closer?
Can ‘closer’ and ‘far’ be experienced at all?

They all appear at the same distance, a flat image, colors... closer and far, are experienced the same, there is no far or close.... this is same as inside or outside or up and down, which I have looked at before too....

But is there really an object hiding somewhere behind the colour, or an object which is ‘emitting’ the colour?
Is there the experience of a physical object (tree) behind the colour, or that is independent of colour?

No, no object hiding or experience of it.

Yes, but labels are raw experience too…it is only thoughts about labels and thoughts about thoughts that give labels and thoughts meaning. The content of thought is what give labels and thoughts meaning. However, if thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? So what meaning is given to thoughts, are only just thoughts about thoughts.
Is this clear?

Yes, getting there.... meaning: a thought about a thought... This is a practice I got going daily... just noticing thoughts. Sometimes the 'bite' or 'sting' out of the initial thought triggers another thought and a sensation, so it takes discipline to stay just noticing... hopefully little by little this becomes more natural.

Thanks Kay

[forgetmenot]

Hello Z,

Yes, getting there.... meaning: a thought about a thought... This is a practice I got going daily... just noticing thoughts. Sometimes the 'bite' or 'sting' out of the initial thought triggers another thought and a sensation, so it takes discipline to stay just noticing... hopefully little by little this becomes more natural.

Without thought, how is it known that a “thought triggers another thought and a sensation”?

Here is a thought exercise. Look carefully when doing this exercise and do it several times if necessary. Please answer each question individually.

Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts. Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear, without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?
Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?
Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?
Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?
Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?
Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?
Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay, I liked this exercise, did it twice...

Without thought, how is it known that a “thought triggers another thought and a sensation”?

Its not known...

Where are they coming from and going to?

Coming from nowhere, and going nowhere, just fading in and out...

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

No

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

No, nothing at all.

Can you predict your next thought?

Nope, lol.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Some people in other spiritual practices would say, 'Of course I can, I can program my mind to have only good thoughts!".... lol. I tried that for a while and noticed it didn't work. So so answer your question from my experience, no. you cant.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

No.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

No.

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

No

Can you stop thinking a thought in the middle?

No

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

No organized sequence, I see it as just one thought following another one, forming a story, then later a thought about waking up from that sequence of thoughts.

Let me add something I've been pondering. Maybe its just thought saying this, but I notice that when the thoughts came, out of random order or themes, that the AE was only thought.... colors or sounds, sensations disappeared in that moment. Like in that moment only thought IS... so this takes me to this conclusion I got going, its not that I disappear during these thoughts (daydreams, etc), then wake up from thought saying 'Oh, I just had these thoughts, now Im in the present moment", (that would be thought) its more like I as awareness or beingness, or what ever you want to call this sensation of being aware, becomes just the thought.... Why? because theres the experience of just being a thought.... then after that, the awareness becomes color, sounds, sensations... makes sense? Like its a continuous morphing of experiences.... I like the metaphor of the sea. When a wave if formed, its still the sea. In this case, a thought comes, it seems I disappear (the character disappears), but no, I just become thought, another wave in this continuous motion that is awareness.

Makes sense? (to who right? lol)...

Thanks Kay.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence. Or is it just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that "one thought follows another thought"?

No organized sequence, I see it as just one thought following another one, forming a story, then later a thought about waking up from that sequence of thoughts.

Without a thought saying that thoughts are in a sequence that form a story…how would this be known?

Let me add something I've been pondering. Maybe its just thought saying this, but I notice that when the thoughts came, out of random order or themes, that the AE was only thought.... colors or sounds, sensations disappeared in that moment. Like in that moment only thought IS... so this takes me to this conclusion I got going, its not that I disappear during these thoughts (daydreams, etc), then wake up from thought saying 'Oh, I just had these thoughts, now Im in the present moment", (that would be thought) its more like I as awareness or beingness, or what ever you want to call this sensation of being aware, becomes just the thought.... Why? because theres the experience of just being a thought.... then after that, the awareness becomes color, sounds, sensations... makes sense? Like its a continuous morphing of experiences.... I like the metaphor of the sea. When a wave if formed, its still the sea. In this case, a thought comes, it seems I disappear (the character disappears), but no, I just become thought, another wave in this continuous motion that is awareness.

Wonderful ponderings Z! Yes, there is no choice in what is being ‘awared’ so to speak, however, let’s just clarify a couple of points.

Thought is not what thought says it is or describes itself as. We can’t find where thoughts come from or go to because thought is not a ‘thing’, just like sound, colour, smell, taste and sensations are not ‘things’. A thought isn't known because of its appearance or its content...it is known because it is THIS/experience. A colour isn’t known because it is a colour, or that it is an appearance...it is known because it is THIS. The same goes for sound, sensation, smell and taste. It is a thought that divides experience/THIS into sound AND smell AND thought AND taste AND colour AND sensation. There is no AND because experience/THIS is not divided. It is whole, complete and seamless. So thought is not something separate from experience/THIS…it is THIS, appearing exactly as it is. Soundsmellthoughttastecoloursensation = experience/THIS appearing exactly as it is…so experience/THIS is self-aware.

Here is an exercise that speaks to what you have said :)

So, do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of?
If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?
Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?
Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?
Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?
If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?


The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with. Notice how the sports commentator is like the 'inner narrator' labelled 'my thoughts'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (aka thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice, seems to feel as though they can influence somehow what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome, the commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off. Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay :)

So, do you have any choice, whatsoever, about what you're aware of?

No

If thoughts say, "I can change what I'm aware of by closing my eyes", and suddenly eyes seem to close, and you are aware of only colour black.
Did you REALLY have any choice about being aware of all of that?

No, its just there, as IS.

Did you have any choice about being aware of the thoughts, or the apparent closing of eyes, or the colour black?

No.

Could you have chosen not to have thoughts about closing eyes?

No

Could you have chosen for the colour to be green instead?

No

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Nothing...

Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off.

When the sound is off, its like that is just happening by itself, without 'me' being involved, if that makes sense. Its more peaceful and smooth. When the sound is on, it becomes a burden to hear it, like you mentioned in your comments, its like unnecessary to have these commentators (thoughts) explaining stuff. Its a bit comical to be honest, lol.

Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Sound off= just colours changing. Sound on= Colours, sounds.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

Not at all, its unnecessary, like a thing on top that doesnt add nothing really to the meaning.

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No, I see what you mean.... life just is lifeing without any added 'flavor' to it to give it a special meaning lol!
... but I could add here that what if life turns dangerous or something happens where thought comes in to 'alert' you of something... then the narrator is necessary no?

Thanks Kay :)

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Nothing...

Yes…exactly. When you see this, how do you feel?

Let me know how you feel and what you notice when the sound is on and when the sound is off.

When the sound is off, its like that is just happening by itself, without 'me' being involved, if that makes sense. Its more peaceful and smooth. When the sound is on, it becomes a burden to hear it, like you mentioned in your comments, its like unnecessary to have these commentators (thoughts) explaining stuff. Its a bit comical to be honest, lol.

Haha…yes, it is like cartoon characters who talk! As we know, they are cartoon characters so they certainly wouldn’t be thinking or talking!

When the sound is on, we get swept away with the commentator. Getting excited when we here the excitement in his commentating etc. When the sound is off, everything is neutral. It is via the commentator that meaning is given and it is via meaning that it SEEMS like life is either good or bad.

Did you notice that when the sound was off, whatever was happening was happening in that moment, whereas when sound was on, the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened or what may happen? So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Z’!

Also, when you turn the sound on and off, and without thought, what is actually appearing/happening etc?

Sound off= just colours changing. Sound on= Colours, sounds.

Yes…all there is, is colour.

Is colour really changing? Are there many different colourS or just colour?
Without thought, how is it known that one colour ends and another begins? LOOK carefully at the picture. How is it known that the colour labelled 'brown' is a tree and that the outside of the tree is the border which differentiates and separates the tree from the 'sky', 'grass', 'other tree'? Without thought, how would this be known?

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

Not at all, its unnecessary, like a thing on top that doesnt add nothing really to the meaning.

If you look at the game with no sound…there is no meaning. It is thought that seems to give it meaning (and it is only a thought that says thought knows anything!). This is the same with the game called Z’s life.

And in the same way: Is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No, I see what you mean.... life just is lifeing without any added 'flavor' to it to give it a special meaning lol!

Yes, precisely.

... but I could add here that what if life turns dangerous or something happens where thought comes in to 'alert' you of something... then the narrator is necessary no?

Let’s test that theory, shall we? The following exercise will not only answer your question, but it looks at the idea of control, choice and decisions.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay!
back for a second round today :)

Yes…exactly. When you see this, how do you feel?

Relieved, surprised, astonished...

It is via the commentator that meaning is given and it is via meaning that it SEEMS like life is either good or bad.

Lol, its like a on-going joke no? The commentator trying to give meaning to something that just IS. Thats for me the paradox of all this, I know I know, this is thought labeling lol...

Did you notice that when the sound was off, whatever was happening was happening in that moment

Yes, just THAt happening NOW...

whereas when sound was on, the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened or what may happen? So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Z’!

Lol! Yes, thanks. This commentator, hes a sly one too, his comments sometimes are right on point to stir the situation, lol.

Is colour really changing? Are there many different colourS or just colour?
Without thought, how is it known that one colour ends and another begins? LOOK carefully at the picture. How is it known that the colour labelled 'brown' is a tree and that the outside of the tree is the border which differentiates and separates the tree from the 'sky', 'grass', 'other tree'? Without thought, how would this be known?

Not known.... if I really look into it... no differentiation, basically just THAT. Just colors... just THAT.

---

How is the movement controlled?

Lol... this got me laughing... yes, I see this.... no control, just hand moving.

Does a thought control it?

No

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, lol... wow.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Cant locate anything or any thought.... just hand moving... apparently by itself, lol.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, lol!... wow, have to work on this and continue to look, on other type of movements.... its something that was seen before, but in this LU inquiry, the key ingredient, 'without going to thought'... gives this exercise another dimension. All this time, this movement with no controller has been like this... all this time a Z thinking he is the one controlling the body, and is responsible for keeping the body safe... wow. So basically, all a illusion, ownership illusion....lol.

Thanks Kay :) You are a true inquisitor of the false self lol! Love back.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

Love your enthusiasm for this inquiry!

whereas when sound was on, the commentator was mostly referring to what just happened or what may happen? So this is how it goes with the story about a character called ‘Z’!

Lol! Yes, thanks. This commentator, hes a sly one too, his comments sometimes are right on point to stir the situation, lol.

Only if you believe that thought knows what it is talking about ;) If thoughts were expressed via the tweeting of birds or an unknown language, how would you know what they meant? What meaning is given to thoughts are only just thoughts about thoughts.

Is colour really changing? Are there many different colourS or just colour?
Without thought, how is it known that one colour ends and another begins? LOOK carefully at the picture. How is it known that the colour labelled 'brown' is a tree and that the outside of the tree is the border which differentiates and separates the tree from the 'sky', 'grass', 'other tree'? Without thought, how would this be known?

Not known.... if I really look into it... no differentiation, basically just THAT. Just colors... just THAT.

Just colour…not colourS! It is only thought that labels THIS/experience as something called ‘colour’ and then further breaks that down into pink, purple, green, yellow, brown etc.

How is the movement controlled?

Lol... this got me laughing... yes, I see this.... no control, just hand moving.

And is the hand really moving? This exercise helps to see how the illusion of the body is ‘created’, so to speak. Normally we believe that sensation is coming from sight (ie colour) - the object seen. In this example, the object being the ‘hand’ (colour labelled as ‘hand’)

1. Close the eyes and hold up one hand. Pay attention only to the felt sensation ‘of the hand’.
2. Open the eyes, and now observe the hand by looking only.
3. While looking at the hand, pay attention to the felt sensations.

Repeat 1 to 3 as many times as needed and investigate…

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

Does a thought control it?

No

So does thought control whether you jump to action or not when danger seems to be imminent?

Can you imagine if a thought was needed to apply the brakes in the car? First the thought would have to appear from somewhere and know that it needs to appear at that particular time. Then you would have to wait for a thought to appear to start to move your leg towards the brake and another thought to apply the foot to the brake and so on. By the time all that happened...the accident would have already occurred!~

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No, lol... wow.

Yep..wow indeed! :)

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Cant locate anything or any thought.... just hand moving... apparently by itself, lol.

Exactly! :) So is thought needed as a narrator to ‘alert’ you to danger?
And by the way…where exactly is this ‘you’ that needs to be alerted?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No, lol!... wow, have to work on this and continue to look, on other type of movements.... its something that was seen before, but in this LU inquiry, the key ingredient, 'without going to thought'... gives this exercise another dimension. All this time, this movement with no controller has been like this... all this time a Z thinking he is the one controlling the body, and is responsible for keeping the body safe... wow. So basically, all a illusion, ownership illusion....lol.

YES! Lovely looking Z! So whether or not ‘you’ run away from a tiger or not…is not up to you! There is no ‘you’ who is controlling anything! :)

Thanks Kay :) You are a true inquisitor of the false self lol! Love back

I absolutely love being the true inquisitor. Without it the idea of suffering would have continued :(, although paradoxically there is no ‘me’ to suffer!

Let’s continue with looking at the idea of choice.

The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay :)

Can you see that both the ‘visual sight’ (colour) and the sensation appear simultaneously but ‘separately’, meaning that none of them is coming from the other or contained by the other?

Yes, I see this. Each has its own quality, but appear simultaneously

Do they just appear equally, ‘beside’ each other without any hierarchy or link between them?

Yes, no hierarchy or link...

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

yes, no link, each one has its own quality... only thought makes appear there is a link...I've been seeing this more and more on my daily inquiries, experience without thought is just experience.

So does thought control whether you jump to action or not when danger seems to be imminent?

No, it just happens.... Im understanding this more... today I went for a walk and I was seeing this, how the body just does its thing moving... so in a danger situation, which Ive had in the past, it was just the body moving out of the way or saving itself...in a sense, it takes the feeling of guilt or fear that it was up to me to save myself... very interesting realization, it lifts a burden that it was just life doing life.

Yep..wow indeed! :)

Wow to the wow LOL!... today washing the dishes, I saw that IT was just washing the dishes. It lifts the burden of the doer... lol.

Exactly! :) So is thought needed as a narrator to ‘alert’ you to danger?

No! never was, never will lol... thought could be the narrator later, "Oh wow, thank God I stepped put of the way of that car, I saved myself!" lol! it takes ownership of the action... this is something that I plan on integrating more on my writing, I like to write, but now I know that any writing is just writing... no author needed lol! Bad writing? no problem, not my fault! Good writing, it wasn't my doing!

And by the way…where exactly is this ‘you’ that needs to be alerted?

Lol... mama mia... you crack me up K... lol... thats a good one. good joke! where was that person that needed to be alerted and saved?...

YES! Lovely looking Z! So whether or not ‘you’ run away from a tiger or not…is not up to you! There is no ‘you’ who is controlling anything! :)

Cant stop laughing! lol...

I absolutely love being the true inquisitor. Without it the idea of suffering would have continued :(, although paradoxically there is no ‘me’ to suffer!

Lol!

---
Sidenote: Ive gone to 2 social events these days, and i have reflected on these ponderings... seeing people move around on, everyone thinking they are doing all these important actions, when its all a very intricate play, just life playing out a interesting (sometimes crazy) screenplay lol... I imagine this could be another topic to inquire, if there are 'others' or just colors?...I was going to ask you this one.... I know its thought that says its others.... but this body interacts with others.... etc etc
----

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Didn't choose, these just manifested as thoughts.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I didnt choose to shut down the preferences, they were replaced by the counting, that apparently took place because I followed the instruction.... but yes, preferences went away without any apparent chooser or choice.

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Lol, this one looks like the hand movement exercise....no chooser located.... just the action happening lol.... like any other action if I pay attention to it

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Exactly! Its not like a thought said, "Ok, now I am picking up the glass and taking a sip".... basically its a feeling like you mention, feeling I did that... and a feeling cant choose, they are illusions of a chooser, of a 'somebody' doing 'something'.

Thanks Kay :)

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

Is there any link between the sensation and the sight ie colour? In other words is the sensation actually ‘coming from’ the sight (colour labelled as ‘hand’), or only thought and mental constructs link them?

yes, no link, each one has its own quality...

And how is it known that each one has its own quality?
What is it that divides experience and labels it as sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation and colour? With this in mind…does experience actually have qualities?

only thought makes appear there is a link...I've been seeing this more and more on my daily inquiries, experience without thought is just experience.

Yes! Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

So does thought control whether you jump to action or not when danger seems to be imminent?

No, it just happens.... Im understanding this more... today I went for a walk and I was seeing this, how the body just does its thing moving... so in a danger situation, which Ive had in the past, it was just the body moving out of the way or saving itself...in a sense, it takes the feeling of guilt or fear that it was up to me to save myself... very interesting realization, it lifts a burden that it was just life doing life.

Yes, just like there is no need for a ‘you’ to make breathing happen or make digestion happen and so on. Life is just lifing.

Yep..wow indeed! :)

Wow to the wow LOL!... today washing the dishes, I saw that IT was just washing the dishes. It lifts the burden of the doer... lol.

YES! Much freedom in this!

Exactly! :) So is thought needed as a narrator to ‘alert’ you to danger?

No! never was, never will lol... thought could be the narrator later, "Oh wow, thank God I stepped put of the way of that car, I saved myself!" lol! it takes ownership of the action... this is something that I plan on integrating more on my writing, I like to write, but now I know that any writing is just writing... no author needed lol! Bad writing? no problem, not my fault! Good writing, it wasn't my doing!

Haha! Yes, exactly! And isn’t that also freeing! And what determines writing as good or bad?

There is an idea that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. It is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’, but let’s investigate that even!

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?
Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?
Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?
Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?
Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

And by the way…where exactly is this ‘you’ that needs to be alerted?
Lol... mama mia... you crack me up K... lol... thats a good one. good joke! where was that person that needed to be alerted and saved?...

YES! Lovely looking Z! So whether or not ‘you’ run away from a tiger or not…is not up to you! There is no ‘you’ who is controlling anything! :)
Cant stop laughing! lol...

Haha….you are making me laugh!

Sidenote: Ive gone to 2 social events these days, and i have reflected on these ponderings... seeing people move around on, everyone thinking they are doing all these important actions, when its all a very intricate play, just life playing out a interesting (sometimes crazy) screenplay lol... I imagine this could be another topic to inquire, if there are 'others' or just colors?...I was going to ask you this one.... I know its thought that says its others.... but this body interacts with others.... etc etc

How does “this body interact with others”? How does colour interact with colours?

Okay…so let’s look at ‘others’.

The belief that others are aware is based on two key assumptions, which seem to overlap:
1. You are a person that is aware.
2. There is an ‘outside’ to experience as it is known (smell, taste, sound, thought, image, sensation)

Are you a ‘person’ that is ‘aware’?
Do ‘you’ perceive through a ‘body’?

What is the AE of ‘others thinking’?
What is the AE of ‘others’?
Are you a ‘person’ that others can think of?
What is the AE of 'other' being ‘aware’?
Is there anything other than ‘you’ that is ‘aware’?
If there is no personal 'me' then what are others?
What are 'others' made of?
How is it known that others have thoughts? Because they tell you?
Is there any evidence that you have thoughts? If you don't, can others have them?
How is it known that others experience?
How is it known that there is a “other”?
Can you find an ‘inner world and an ‘outer world’? Or is it thought that says there is an ‘inner world’ and an ‘outer world’?
Where exactly is the dividing line between an ‘inner world’ and an ‘outer world’?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I didnt choose to shut down the preferences, they were replaced by the counting, that apparently took place because I followed the instruction.... but yes, preferences went away without any apparent chooser or choice.

Did the words on the screen actually make you do this exercise? Was there a choice to do it or not?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Lol, this one looks like the hand movement exercise....no chooser located.... just the action happening lol.... like any other action if I pay attention to it

And what about actions you only become aware of during the actions ie absent mindedly scratching an itch?!

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Exactly! Its not like a thought said, "Ok, now I am picking up the glass and taking a sip".... basically its a feeling like you mention, feeling I did that... and a feeling cant choose, they are illusions of a chooser, of a 'somebody' doing 'something'.

Lovely! If it is not an actual sensation...then it is simply an idea/thought.

Love, Kay

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay :)

And how is it known that each one has its own quality?

Its not known, just thought labeling that...

What is it that divides experience and labels it as sound, thought, smell, taste, sensation and colour?

Thought...

With this in mind…does experience actually have qualities?

Now that you put it this way, no... its just as IS... life being life, no qualities...awareness, beingness.

Yes! Here is a great clip which shows how there is no correlation between sensation and hand!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dphlhmt ... e=youtu.be

Wow...! So what I get here is that thought labels, associates and gives meaning to experience, without thought its just experience. Makes sense?

Haha! Yes, exactly! And isn’t that also freeing! And what determines writing as good or bad?

Hahaha! This is the ultimate joke lol.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Color

Is the colour red experienced, or is the colour green experienced as the label suggests?

Just the color red is experience.

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’?

No...

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here and now (red colour)?

Yes!

Is green-ness inherent attributes of the experience of the colour red, or is green just a word label on the experience of the colour red?

It was just a label on top of the AE of color red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Lol! No effect whatsoever on what is... Red didnt become bad or good lol... because the AE is just color.... label would be a meaning on top! lol...

Okay…so let’s look at ‘others’.

The belief that others are aware is based on two key assumptions, which seem to overlap:
1. You are a person that is aware.
2. There is an ‘outside’ to experience as it is known (smell, taste, sound, thought, image, sensation)

Are you a ‘person’ that is ‘aware’?

No, theres just awareness.

Do ‘you’ perceive through a ‘body’?

Well no... theres just the perceptions, even the body would be a sensation, color, smell (lol).

What is the AE of ‘others thinking’?

Thought! Lol... yes?

What is the AE of ‘others’?

Colors... lol.

Are you a ‘person’ that others can think of?

No! lol

What is the AE of 'other' being ‘aware’?

Thought! lol.... Im laughing over here, because its just surreal to think (thought!) of these things, nobody's aware, just colors... By the way, Im having (who is right? lol) another social event this Friday, lots of colors will be there lol.

Is there anything other than ‘you’ that is ‘aware’?

No! Lol! .... This is in line with something Ramana Maharshi says, that there are no others. Papaji says, 'You are all alone!" lol...

If there is no personal 'me' then what are others?

Lol... colors lol. Hahaha.

What are 'others' made of?

Colors.

How is it known that others have thoughts? Because they tell you?

Lol! Kay you are killing me over here lol... Of course... its not known.

Is there any evidence that you have thoughts? If you don't, can others have them?

Only evidence would be a thought: memory, that I have had thoughts....

How is it known that others experience?
Its not... other than that a 'other' (color), tells me (sounds) something that he is experiencing.... sounds, then thoughts maybe.

How is it known that there is a “other”?

Only by labels, thought. Other than that, its not known. Just colors.

Can you find an ‘inner world and an ‘outer world’? Or is it thought that says there is an ‘inner world’ and an ‘outer world’?

Ive seen this one before during some daily inquiries I do while I take walks... theres no outer, or inner (no up or down, no far away or close).... only same awareness. Its thought that labels.

Where exactly is the dividing line between an ‘inner world’ and an ‘outer world’?

None whatsoever....

Did the words on the screen actually make you do this exercise? Was there a choice to do it or not?

Lol... it just happened lol. Thought came later to label that it followed the instructions lol. But in reality it just happened like that, and no choice or chooser, just the action, what happened.

And what about actions you only become aware of during the actions ie absent mindedly scratching an itch?!

No doer there neither, just things happening on automatic pilot lol. Driving! Walking, taking a shower, saying hi to another color (someone) lol... thought then comes in and labels, "Oh, I should have been more courteous to her/him, I was a bit rude", etc etc... lol

Thanks Kay again for your continuous patience and great pointings!
Love Z!

[forgetmenot]

Hey Z,

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?
Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Lol! No effect whatsoever on what is... Red didnt become bad or good lol... because the AE is just color.... label would be a meaning on top! lol...

So, if you now replace the label ‘colour’ with experience/THIS, is experience itself affected by labels ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘red’ or ‘green’? Do those labels describe experience in any way?

Are you a ‘person’ that is ‘aware’?

No, theres just awareness.

What is "awareness"? Is it something other than, different to, or separate from, experience?
What does this ‘awareness’ look like exactly? Where can this awareness be found?

Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin?

Is experience, using sensation as an example, and the awareness of sensation two things? Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?

What is the AE of ‘others thinking’?

Thought! Lol... yes?

Yes, exactly. Without thought how could it be known that others are thinking? Is there a 'you' who is thinking? If not, then why would seeming 'others' be thinking?

Is there anything other than ‘you’ that is ‘aware’?

No! Lol! .... This is in line with something Ramana Maharshi says, that there are no others. Papaji says, 'You are all alone!" lol...

You that IS…are alone. For there to be something else…then there would be 2 and there is not 2 

How is it known that others have thoughts? Because they tell you?

Lol! Kay you are killing me over here lol... Of course... its not known.

LOL exactly! The thoughts that you think others are thinking about you, are arising thoughts. Do thoughts belong to you? Is there are you that is actually having thoughts?

What is called ‘others voices’ is AE of sound and are not them voicing thoughts/speaking! Check it out for yourself.

How is it known that others experience?

Its not... other than that a 'other' (color), tells me (sounds) something that he is experiencing.... sounds, then thoughts maybe.

Yes…so all there is, is an appearing thought story about an ‘other that is speaking about experiences’. When you LOOK at that…how can colour speak or think or experience.

So looking at ‘others’ sort of ties in with looking at the idea of the body.

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay

[Samadhi01]

Thanks Kay, let me work on that last exercise for a few days. Z.

[Samadhi01]

Hi Kay, :)

So, if you now replace the label ‘colour’ with experience/THIS, is experience itself affected by labels ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘red’ or ‘green’? Do those labels describe experience in any way?

No. I tried something similar today, driving around I saw some homeless people under a bridge,they were probably doing drugs or making deals, who knows, but first reaction was to label it as something bad... but after removing the labels, the situation became just as it was. Similar to the video we saw of the soccer game, without narrator. Just colors, just what IS.

What is "awareness"? Is it something other than, different to, or separate from, experience?

No, lol! Its actually one with what Is. Was just a manner of me saying that there was this whatever beingness or consciousness.

What does this ‘awareness’ look like exactly? Where can this awareness be found?

You cant find it, its the knowing, and that knowing is one with what is known.

Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin?

Really looking at this, theres no separation or limit where one ends and other begins... so its the same, knowing knowing itself as sensation.

Is experience, using sensation as an example, and the awareness of sensation two things? Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?

Theres no 2 things, because you cant find a knowable limit where one ends and other begins. Its experience being self aware of itself as a sensation, color, sound, thought.

Yes, exactly. Without thought how could it be known that others are thinking?

This is a big one, lol...

Is there a 'you' who is thinking? If not, then why would seeming 'others' be thinking?

Lol. Yes, this is cosmic joke time lol.

LOL exactly! The thoughts that you think others are thinking about you, are arising thoughts. Do thoughts belong to you? Is there are you that is actually having thoughts?

No, lol... thoughts just appear and disappear. Just 'The story' of Z, thinking there are others and that they are thinking things about him...

What is called ‘others voices’ is AE of sound and are not them voicing thoughts/speaking! Check it out for yourself.

Thank you! So 'other voices', AE of sound. And to say 'other voices', that is AE of thought no? labeling sounds as other voices.

-----

Can it be known how tall the body is?

No

Does the body have a weight or volume?

Not known.

In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

No

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

No... only sensations....

Is there an inside or an outside?

Nope... even with eyes open, its the same as inner....

If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?

There isn't inside

If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

No outside...

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

To nothing... just a label, not AE....

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Colors, sensations, smells, sounds...

Thanks Kay, ;)

[forgetmenot]

Good afternoon Zazen,

So, if you now replace the label ‘colour’ with experience/THIS, is experience itself affected by labels ‘good’ or ‘bad’, ‘red’ or ‘green’? Do those labels describe experience in any way?

No. I tried something similar today, driving around I saw some homeless people under a bridge,they were probably doing drugs or making deals, who knows, but first reaction was to label it as something bad... but after removing the labels, the situation became just as it was. Similar to the video we saw of the soccer game, without narrator. Just colors, just what IS.

Lovely example, thank you! Yes, without thought, nothing is affected.

What does this ‘awareness’ look like exactly? Where can this awareness be found?

You cant find it, its the knowing, and that knowing is one with what is known.

Yes! Knowing and known are one and the same (knowingknown). Just as soundcoloursmelltastethoughtsensation is synonymous with knowingknown/THIS/experience/knowing/consciousness/awareness.

Where does sensation (known) end and the knowing of it begin?

Really looking at this, theres no separation or limit where one ends and other begins... so its the same, knowing knowing itself as sensation.

Yes, however, without thought how is a sensation known as a sensation. Is it not simply experience which thought has labelled as ‘sensation’? Therefore Knowing knows itself as itself, no matter what is SEEMS to appear as or be labelled as?

Is experience, using sensation as an example, and the awareness of sensation two things? Is there experience AND awareness, or is experience self-aware without a separate thing which is aware?

Theres no 2 things, because you cant find a knowable limit where one ends and other begins. Its experience being self aware of itself as a sensation, color, sound, thought.

As above, if you ignore all those labels..what remains?
If you look at a table, and for the sake of this experiment, let’s say it is the colour brown. Now totally ignore the label ‘table’ and you are then left with the label ‘brown’. Totally ignore the label ‘brown’ and you are left with the label ‘colour’. Now ignore the label ‘colour’ and what are you left with?

Yes, exactly. Without thought how could it be known that others are thinking?

This is a big one, lol...

The thoughts appearing that are labelled as ‘others thoughts’ are simply thoughts appearing. Are ‘your’ thoughts actually happening in a head? Do thought actually have a location?

Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?

LOL exactly! The thoughts that you think others are thinking about you, are arising thoughts. Do thoughts belong to you? Is there are you that is actually having thoughts?

No, lol... thoughts just appear and disappear. Just 'The story' of Z, thinking there are others and that they are thinking things about him...

Just the story of a character called Z, who SEEMS to be the thinker of thought and thinks that there are others and that they are thinking things about him!
Do thoughts know what they are saying?

What is called ‘others voices’ is AE of sound and are not them voicing thoughts/speaking! Check it out for yourself.

Thank you! So 'other voices', AE of sound. And to say 'other voices', that is AE of thought no? labeling sounds as other voices.

Yes…bingo! The AE of ‘others voices’ is AE of sound, and the thoughts ABOUT others voices etc is AE of thought.
Without thought, how is it known that what is being said is an actual language that is understood by the ‘me’ and by the other?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

To nothing... just a label, not AE....

The WORD/LABEL ‘body’ actually refers to AE of thought and NOT AE of a body. A label is a thought, so a label is AE of thought.

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Colors, sensations, smells, sounds...

The actual experience of the body is thought. Thought points to colour, sensation, smell, sound etc and infers that it is a body. Can an actual body be found in colour, sensation, smell, sound etc?

Love, Kay