Seeking guide to help stop seeking and start seeing

[adilerten]

Thoughts can't think so if the mind is just a thought what produces thought?

All we can directly know is "Thought is." "Thought exist"
All other explanations are more thoughts. Stories.

If thoughts come from nothing did beings like Eisenstein have a unique relationship with nothing to produce their revolutionary thought theories?

What is the actual experience of "Einstein" Neil ?
Isn't it another (agreed) thought story ?

Also is there Einstein -AND- his thoughts ?
How can you know that someone has thoughts ?
Because a thought says so ?

Question- If someone suffers from visual or auditory hallucinations are these actual direct experiences more real to that person than the quiet empty room most other people would observe?

There is only the experience.
Now close your eyes and focus on any sound you can hear..Can be the tick tock of the clock anything..

Are you able to find a division between hearing and sound?
Are you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just pure experience labelled as sound?

What about a person on hallucinogenic drugs. If I took LSD would my direct seeing and awareness be that of reality?
( this is just theoretical question I'm not interested in those drugs)

The experience will arise and fall. Like all other experiences.
Awareness embraces all experience. No matter what..Smell-sight-touch-sound-sensations arise and fall.

[adilerten]

Also when these experiences arise, is there any kind of control Neil ?
let's look what is happening not by itself..

when you open eyes and see colors and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?
do you need to do anything to hear sounds?
how about touching things, is the sensation there by itself or you switch it on and off?
taste, smell, are you in charge of that or it's simply there?
do you move the blood and make heart beat?
do you need to manage other bodily functions or not?

what are you in charge of? what can you turn on and off at will?

are you the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?
are you in charge of being, or it's on by default, no matter what?

[drewr007]

What is the actual experience of "Einstein" Neil ?
Isn't it another (agreed) thought story ?

Also is there Einstein -AND- his thoughts ?
How can you know that someone has thoughts ?
Because a thought says so ?

You can't really know someone has thoughts. If they write them down or speak them to you direct experience is of the language not of the thought itself.

Are you able to find a division between hearing and sound?
Are you able to establish where hearing ended and sound begin, or was there just pure experience labelled as sound?

There is no division between the sound and hearing of it.

when you open eyes and see colors and shapes, do you need to do anything in order to see the view?

Nothing except for opening my eyes.

do you need to do anything to hear sounds?

Nothing except for not wearing noise canceling headphones or earplugs.

how about touching things, is the sensation there by itself or you switch it on and off?

I can't switch the sensation on or off. It feels like I can direct my attention towards it or away from it but the sensation is constant.

taste, smell, are you in charge of that or it's simply there?

There is some feeling of being in charge of it. For example if a supermodel whispered to me in a noisy room the background music would probally not be registered in awareness.

So awareness can shift but and it's possible to train yourself on being aware of certain things ie. the breath while meditating. But ultimately no one is making the decision to train awareness and awareness is just operating under causes and conditions.

do you move the blood and make heart beat?

No because the heart doesn't stop when I'm in dreamless sleep. However thinking thoughts makes my heart beat faster. I don't have control over the thoughts or the heart rate at any time though.

do you need to manage other bodily functions or not?

For the most part no I do not manage them. However it feels like when I decide to go to the bathroom that I'm managing that decision.

what are you in charge of? what can you turn on and off at will?

If I killed myself I would think I would be in charge of stopping all sensations and perceptions. However the "decision" to kill myself wouldn't really be made be me. It would just be causes and conditions.

* this is an example I'm not suicidal *

are you the doer of thinking, sensing, experiencing?

No those things just happen by themselves.

are you in charge of being, or it's on by default, no matter what?

No one is in charge of being. Life is all causes and conditions. Sometimes it feels like I have some control but that is an illusion. What would I have control over? Thoughts and feelings arise without me. Decisions are made based on thoughts and feelings that I didn't create. Being or awareness simply is along for the ride.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

[adilerten]

Very good looking Neil. Thank you for your focused attention.

Let's look more..

There is some feeling of being in charge of it.

Feels like - seems like points to uncertainity and we are looking for direct certain experiences.
So if you cannot spot a feeler - smeller - taster etc. it means there is none.
There is no one in charge of anything..

Is that clear for you ? :)

For the most part no I do not manage them. However it feels like when I decide to go to the bathroom that I'm managing that decision.

Which part is "your" decision ?
Need comes, body goes to toilet..no doer, no manager, no driver behind the wheel..
typing these words is happening, thinking is happening, paying the electric bills are happening..
Are you the doer of these ? Is there any ?


Let's look more

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down. 2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?

Sending much love

[drewr007]

Which part is "your" decision ?

If I really have to pee but I wait because something labeled more important is happening it feels like my decision to wait. In reality the thought "this is more important" comes out of nowhere and causes the automatic feelings associated with it.

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise? Why that hand but not the other ?

Nothing is choosing.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

I can't find anything close to a separate individual with that experiment. It feels like the choice was random or fated. It was so quick there was no room for the illusion of free will or a doer to arise.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Without the use of concepts or labels the hand controls itself.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

Raising hand happening is seen. I choose to raise one hand seems ridiculous.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

Nothing is found in direct experience.

How is the decision made?

There never was a decision in the first place. It's all a story.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

[adilerten]

Thanks for the good looking Neil.

Which part is "your" decision ?
If I really have to pee but I wait because something labeled more important is happening it feels like my decision to wait. In reality the thought "this is more important" comes out of nowhere and causes the automatic feelings associated with it.

Circumstances determines the decisions as you say a thought out of nowhere arise..
No decision maker no decider.
"feels like" never can be a proof for a decider as you perfectly saw this.

Raising hand happening is seen.

Yes! Wonderfully seen. Better we can say known...

Quote from Kay:

"Nothing is seen, heard, tasted, smelled, thought, or felt.
Experience is simply known.
All "senses", and "things" are just imaginary divisions of experience/THIS."


We are going real good Neil
Let's move on..

[adilerten]

Let's look at this idea of "Body",

Let's make a deep investigation with you Neil

For this investigation you have to stand in front of a bigger mirror for a while..Take your time and follow each step please
and ask and answer one by one

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensatons labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental mages) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the mage ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it s a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror,
Is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental mages suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).


Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and mages are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR s there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Looking forward to hear your investigation results Neil,
Sending much love

[drewr007]

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental mages) suggest that there is?

No actual connection can be felt. Just thoughts and stories.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

Yes the proprioception in the hand matches the image changing in the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the mage ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

Yes the proprioception in the hand matches the image of movement.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it s a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

No the image doesn't suggest it is my body. It's colors and shapes that correspond to the label body.

Is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental mages suggest so?

Thoughts and mental images suggest it's so but the legs can also be felt directly in awareness.

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and mages are ignored, or are there only sensations?

No just sensations.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Just sensations. A body is a label that can describe many things with no clear boundary.

The actual experience of walking is composed of a symphony of small sensations entering awareness. The sensations remain with or without the thoughts about walking.

Labels like body and walking only exist in thought.

Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR s there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

The room image/label appears inside sensation which does not seem to have a location or specific limits with regard to the concept of distance.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

[adilerten]

very good looking Neil

But you can clearly see that "corresponding and matching" is also thought content.

Actual body cannot be found anywhere!

Ok ?

[adilerten]

If you have questions until now please ask,
If now let's start to look at this idea of time;

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last? Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'? What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?
Have you ever actually experienced the past ?
I am not asking have you had a thought in the present about an apparent past..
Have you ever actually experienced that past to which your thought refers ?

[drewr007]

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?

No it just feels like it's always now.

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No moments seem to flow seamlessly into each other.

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

Throwing a ball into the air and watching it come back down are events that seem to follow each other. But in the now the ball can only be in one location.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last? Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

The now doesn't start or end. It's continuous. It's always the present moment. Enjoyable events give the illusion time is moving faster than tedious ones but the present moment never goes anywhere.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'? What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

The now doesn't become the past it's always now. Events, thoughts and feeling become the past when they leave awareness.

When listening to a song when the song ends it becomes the past which can only be accessed through thoughts(that really only exist in the now). But the essential now that was there when the song is playing continues after the song ends. The contents of awareness are just different.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Just thoughts. The concept of time implies moments coming and going and a "now" starting and stopping. This can't be seen in actual experience.

Whatever clocks measure is something than can be experienced. Only through thoughts and stories do clocks measure anything real.

Have you ever actually experienced that past to which your thought refers ?

No that would be impossible. The awareness that experienced the apparent past was changed by the past so no thought in the present can ever represent the contents of a different awareness.

I can't think accurately about what it was like to do something as a child because the awareness that thought would arise in is nothing like the awareness "i" had as a child.

You can't show the same movie twice on a screen that gets changed by every movie it ever plays.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

[adilerten]

Very good looking Neil.
I see that you are pretty clear until now.
Please feel free to ask question if you have..
I would like to ask;
What is the difference since we started this dialogue ? Is there any ? How do you feel ?

[adilerten]

Let's look at the idea of memory now Neil,

There is a belief that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened.
That memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Let a memory be there, and look at it. Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say - but what actually is.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’? WHEN does the memory appear?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future. What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear? ,What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought? How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future. What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future? If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

Sending much love

[drewr007]

What is the difference since we started this dialogue ? Is there any ? How do you feel ?

I think this has been very helpful. The biggest differences I'm noticing is the distinction between things that rely on thought and labels and those that can be seen.

I also feel awareness changing. Before I felt a more distinct divide between "internal" and "external" perceptions where as know they seem closer together.

There is also a feeling of identifying as awareness instead of and "I". Sort of sitting behind the idea of a self instead of inside it. Thoughts, feelings and sensations arise and the self still tries to claim some of them but awareness is witness to the whole process and can see through it at times.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’? WHEN does the memory appear?

Memory appears now. It's made mostly of thoughts and some feelings.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

Nothing except for the label that gets assigned to a "memory". When a thought arises that seems to be about an apparent past the label is usually applied.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It doesn't. A thought can't accurately describe perceptions that are no longer occurring. That is beyond it's power.

Then, look at a thought about the future. What is the future thought ‘made of’?

The same thing all thoughts are made of.

WHEN does the future thought appear? ,What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought? How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It appears now. The only difference between a general thought and the future thought is a label based on the illusion of time. A future thought never refers EXACTLY to something that will happen.

No event is guaranteed to happen at all or especially in the exact way a thought would describe it.

Even if death is a "guarantee" it is unknown and you can't think EXACTLY about the unknown.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future. What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future? If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

The labels are the only potential difference. The labels aren't real. All thoughts have the same essential quality.

Thoughts all appear in the now and they all fail to represent anything real exactly the way it is. Thoughts about the future and past seem to miss the mark by even more and seem more like stories or imagination than information.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

[adilerten]

What is the difference since we started this dialogue ? Is there any ? How do you feel ?

I think this has been very helpful. The biggest differences I'm noticing is the distinction between things that rely on thought and labels and those that can be seen.

I also feel awareness changing. Before I felt a more distinct divide between "internal" and "external" perceptions where as know they seem closer together.

There is also a feeling of identifying as awareness instead of and "I". Sort of sitting behind the idea of a self instead of inside it. Thoughts, feelings and sensations arise and the self still tries to claim some of them but awareness is witness to the whole process and can see through it at times.

What is memory exactly? What is the memory ‘made of’? WHEN does the memory appear?

Memory appears now. It's made mostly of thoughts and some feelings.

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

Nothing except for the label that gets assigned to a "memory". When a thought arises that seems to be about an apparent past the label is usually applied.

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It doesn't. A thought can't accurately describe perceptions that are no longer occurring. That is beyond it's power.

Then, look at a thought about the future. What is the future thought ‘made of’?

The same thing all thoughts are made of.

WHEN does the future thought appear? ,What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought? How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It appears now. The only difference between a general thought and the future thought is a label based on the illusion of time. A future thought never refers EXACTLY to something that will happen.

No event is guaranteed to happen at all or especially in the exact way a thought would describe it.

Even if death is a "guarantee" it is unknown and you can't think EXACTLY about the unknown.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future. What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future? If there is difference and how is that difference is known exactly?

The labels are the only potential difference. The labels aren't real. All thoughts have the same essential quality.

Thoughts all appear in the now and they all fail to represent anything real exactly the way it is. Thoughts about the future and past seem to miss the mark by even more and seem more like stories or imagination than information.

Sending appreciation,
Neil

Brilliant! Wonderful looking! Thank you Neil

I think this has been very helpful. The biggest differences I'm noticing is the distinction between things that rely on thought and labels and those that can be seen.
I also feel awareness changing. Before I felt a more distinct divide between "internal" and "external" perceptions where as know they seem closer together.
There is also a feeling of identifying as awareness instead of and "I". Sort of sitting behind the idea of a self instead of inside it. Thoughts, feelings and sensations arise and the self still tries to claim some of them but awareness is witness to the whole process and can see through it at times.

Thanks for the feedback Neil, it is seen that you have realized that there is no separate self, no controller no doer..
Let's look at some more fields then we will make a check point to see where you are more clear..

Thoughts, feelings and sensations arise and the self still tries to claim some of them

How do you know that "the self" tries to claim anything ?
Is there any self anywhere responsible of doing anything ?
Or is it just another thought saying this ?