Passing a threshold

[Tangerine]

Hi there. Is everything okay?

[Locustafiera]

Sorry Tan, I didn’t spot your replies on May 30th. It’s a bit late here now so I will reply tomorrow. What time zone are you in by the way?

[Tangerine]

I'm in the UK

[Locustafiera]

... all there is left of the past and future is .. thoughts.

Exactly.

Doubts point to something irrelevant.

Well spotted. Remember, we are not pretending that events didn’t happen or were not experienced, or that memories are indistinguishable from fantasies, we are simply looking to see what ‘the past’ and ‘the future’ really are, and you pretty much nailed it - they are thoughts occurring in the present moment. When else could they occur? Can you find anything outside the present moment?

Regarding this

... very convicting sense of self ...

Notice how hard it is to define what it is. Your account mentions vague sensations, thoughts and debate about what it could be. Isn’t it odd that something we all take absolutely for granted could be so hard to define? It should be easy really shouldn’t it?

Something has to be me, right?

Well let’s find it then! This thing that makes you separate from other things - what is it? Where is it? Do you think this ‘self’ could be a thing that exists somewhere in the body? What is it made of?

Take a few minutes to sit and listen to a piece of music - instrumental preferably to minimise distracting vocal narrative - can you find a hearer of the music?

Try the same with seeing - preferably a natural setting - relax and look at the scene. Can you find the one who sees?

Expectations about having to be in a positive mood to do this, or have enthusiasm, or not do other things. Kinda ridiculous though.

LOL. I love how you dismiss these thoughts. Interesting isn’t it? What kind of ‘self’ would do this? Have thoughts, then censor them! Are these thoughts things you choose to have or choose to dismiss? What kind of control do ‘you’ have over thoughts?

Look forward to hearing from you again.

[Tangerine]

will get back to you tomorrow. busy time as I'm moving flat and going back home for the summer.

[Locustafiera]

OK. Hope the move goes smoothly.

[Tangerine]

When else could they occur? Can you find anything outside the present moment?

The way past and future are experienced in the present moment is as thoughts about past and future in the present moment. Nothing else. No other time. Finding is also in the present moment, so nothing can be found outside of the present moment. That makes logical sense, but also when I look, it is obvious - the task is seen/felt to be impossible without even needing to justify it. When believed, the thoughts about past and future create a sort of hologram or hole that makes it feels like there's something more than the thoughts, but that doesn't mean that there is.

Experience is of the present moment.

Isn’t it odd that something we all take absolutely for granted could be so hard to define? It should be easy really shouldn’t it?

Agreed. I think this is partly what makes this so hard. What even is it that we all think we are, but infact are not? I feel like that would make this so much easier because then I could just look and planely judge, like seeing whether there's a mug on the table or not.

What kind of ‘self’ would do this? Have thoughts, then censor them!

Wow. I never considered this. I certainly wouldn't do that. I would just make up my mind. Have all the right thoughts sorted beforehand. They seem to just be spewed out on the fly - like a new self every second (so to speak).

Are these thoughts things you choose to have or choose to dismiss? What kind of control do ‘you’ have over thoughts?

Take a few minutes to sit and listen to a piece of music - instrumental preferably to minimise distracting vocal narrative - can you find a hearer of the music?

Try the same with seeing - preferably a natural setting - relax and look at the scene. Can you find the one who sees?

I'll consider these later today, when I have more time.

Thank you :)

[Locustafiera]

Nice 😊. I’ll wait to hear further before replying in substance.

[Tangerine]

Snap. I wrote out a reply but didn't send then it disappeared when I went back on the page today.

Essentially I was saying that in experience, there's just the music (sound), other sensations and thoughts, and thoughts claiming '' am the hearer." I can't find a thing that that points to though. What would a hearer even 'look' like and what direction would I look in?

Thought says 'inwards', but that seems to just refer back to this vague sense of self, the body or the space where experience takes place.

Thought says there's the possibility that it can't be seen because I am it. Does that make sense? But regardless,we're talking about whether not one can be seen anyway.

Exactly the same with seeing. Images can be seen, and thoughts about a seer, but no actual seer, just the impression.

It seems that thoughts just constantly spew out of nowhere. The concept of choice seems to not make much sense here, as it is though that supposedly does the choosing. I certainly wouldn't choose half the thoughts that come up. And ive had my fair share of not being able to control thoughts. I don't know the next thought that will come up or what will replace it and why. On the other hand, sometimes it seems i have more ability to affect my thinking by snapping out of naratives or fosteeing a new mindset through actions. There does also seem to be a sort of structure or regularity that points to a personality or individuality.

[Tangerine]

I Have a question that is very relevant to this discussion and my life right now. There is this very strong sense of needing to protect myself from people and avoid their incessant projection of insecurities. I know this isn't therapy but its obvious there's some unexplored 'self' hiding there that plays out a lot, and maybe we could look into that too? Or later? What do you Think?

[Locustafiera]

Experience is of the present moment.

Yes. Is there anything other than experience in the present moment? What do you have, or own, other than your experience? Consider your wardrobe, your bike, your car, your seat on the bus, your home, your family...can they be separated from the experience of them? In the absence of the experiencing, what are they? Is anything yours except experience?

What even is it that we all think we are, but infact are not? I feel like that would make this so much easier because then I could just look and planely judge, like seeing whether there's a mug on the table or not.

Right! You can easily point at the mug on the table. Try pointing at you, your self. Really do it, in the same way you would point at a mug on the table. What happens?

..... like a new self every second (so to speak).

Does ‘a new one every second’ fit comfortably with the definition of a self? How would that work - what would be creating or generating these selves? Or does the definition of a ‘self’ imply something that is more enduring? Look at the following list and tell me which one is most like the idea of you - as in you, Tangerine.

A dining table.
A university.
Batman.

...there's just the music (sound). .... What would a hearer even 'look' like and what direction would I look in? .... same with seeing ...

Yes. There’s just the music and the sights. What does this imply about the existence of a hearer or a seer? Try this with other sensations too - when sitting on a chair, close your eyes and simply experience the sensation of sitting. Can you find a feeler - or is there just the experience of feeling?

Thought says there's the possibility that it can't be seen because I am it. Does that make sense? But regardless,we're talking about whether not one can be seen anyway.

I didn’t understand the last sentence of this but the previous point makes complete sense. The eye cannot look at itself - the finger cannot point to itself - right? So, what might this thing that you can’t see or hear or touch because it’s the thing that is looking, hearing, feeling etc - what could it actually be? Look at the people around you - can you see the selves that they are? Medical science has been dissecting human bodies for centuries and, despite producing staggering advances in medicine and surgery, has never ever located the essence of a person, the self. Why not?

Go now and look in the mirror for a while - look deep into the eyes - ‘your’ eyes - Is that image Tan? Do you see Tan? Do you see evidence of a self anywhere?

..... sometimes it seems i have more ability to affect my thinking by snapping out of naratives or fosteeing a new mindset through actions.

OK. So what is the trigger that prompts the apparent choice point in these cases? Presumably at some point the though occurs ‘this is an unhealthy pattern, I need to snap out of it’. Do you choose to have those remediating thoughts? Again here we come across the same point we recognised in the previous exchange - what the hell is this self up to - creating unhealthy patterns, then deciding to change them? What kind of capricious entity is it! At what point does it become apparent that a pattern is unhealthy - is this self not on duty the first time it happens to kaibosh it immediately? What’s going on here?

There does also seem to be a sort of structure or regularity that points to a personality or individuality.

OK. Is this ‘personality’ the same thing that we mean when we talk about a self? Is that what you are - a personality? Makes you sound like some long established TV show host. Have you ever had or known a pet - a dog or a cat? They have distinct personalities don’t they? Do they have selves? How are you different?

[Locustafiera]

Hi Tan, I just spotted that you posted again on the 6th. Oddly I couldn’t see this yesterday- will reply later on that subject.

[Locustafiera]

I Have a question that is very relevant to this discussion and my life right now. There is this very strong sense of needing to protect myself from people and avoid their incessant projection of insecurities. I know this isn't therapy but its obvious there's some unexplored 'self' hiding there that plays out a lot, and maybe we could look into that too? Or later? What do you Think?

On the subject of self protection all we need to do is look at what it is that needs protecting. What is it that is hiding or could hide? What could possibly come under threat from the insecurities of others? The key here is to keep looking for this self, this I that you think you are. Beware of distractions that tell you that there’s something wrong. Sniff out the thing thing that seems to be saying it needs fixing and hunt it down!

However, if this is just about not wanting to hang out with people who are annoying you, no problem - make your excuses.

[Tangerine]

Been away at a friends for a few days recharging, i probably should've said but the more days that went by the more i was like ahhh crap. Anyway I'm on my way home now so I'll properly consider what you've written and reply tomorrow

[Locustafiera]

OK, look forward to hearing from you soon.