Beanstalk and Forgetmenot

[forgetmenot]

Hey Beanstalk!

Now zoom back in and try to find the thing that’s seeing. Is there seeing separate from what’s seen, or is there just what’s seen?

There is just what's seen. Again there are things that appear to point to an inherent see-er, like objects coming in and out of focus and vision shifting from one thing to another, but no see-er can actually be found. A thought appeared 'the see-er is located where the seeing originates', so I looked and could not find where seeing originated from, only the sensation labelled 'eyes' we looked at before and a thought about how that is where seeing originates.

Haha…yes, thought will suggest many things…doesn’t make it so!

Is “I” a place where thoughts appear, or is “I” a thought that arises and subsides by itself?

'I' is not a place where thoughts appear, because there's not really a place at all where thoughts appear. That would just be another thought. 'I' is a thought, and the commentary about 'I' is not necessary for life to take place

Yes…nice: “'I' is a thought, and the commentary about 'I' is not necessary for life to take place.”

If that is all, and no INHERENT SEE-ER found . . . would anything that is suggested as the see-er be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

No, there are only thoughts about a see-er

Great!

Okay, you may have already done the following exercise, but no harm in doing it again. This exercise looks at choice and decisions point, and at the idea of control.

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts, examine the actual experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire…

How is the movement controlled?
Does a thought control it?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. It just happens. Much like a thought, the movement just comes suddenly from nowhere

Does a thought control it?

No

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

For some reason when I start looking into this, that is when thoughts start occurring right before the hand turns over. The thoughts say 'NOW' then the hand turns over. But that is just thought occurring and nothing more, nothing makes the decision to turn the hand over. The thoughts come from nowhere

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No



Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hey Beanstalk,

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

For some reason when I start looking into this, that is when thoughts start occurring right before the hand turns over. The thoughts say 'NOW' then the hand turns over. But that is just thought occurring and nothing more, nothing makes the decision to turn the hand over. The thoughts come from nowhere

Did you, in turn notice, that even when a thought appeared saying to turn the hand, that the hand did not turn?

Let’s continue looking at choice but from a different angle. The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

You need to get any two different drinks you like for this exercise, ie coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc. One will be drink A the other will be drink B

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

Did you, in turn notice, that even when a thought appeared saying to turn the hand, that the hand did not turn?

There were a couple of occasions where there was a delay between the thought saying to turn the hand and the hand moving. There were also a couple of occasions (when I started doing it at a quicker pace) that the thought occurred at the same time or after the hand moved.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves?

They appeared by themselves

If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

They also appeared by themselves

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?

No, it happened on its own

Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

No, there were just thoughts occurring, no chooser

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No, just thoughts that were suggestive of the existence of a chooser

Have you seen this function in action?

No, it cannot be seen. There are just thoughts

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?

No, in truth the 'decision' was made pretty much straight away, as the thought occurred 'I'm having the pepsi' right as I started weighing up the pros and cons. But nonetheless when the time came to grab it, it happened automatically

Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

It didn't

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

No. When I look at this sense/feeling, all I actually find is a thought, usually an image of 'me', possibly accompanied by sensation. A sense/feeling/thought/whatever cannot choose, it's just yet another thing pointing to a 'chooser' which can't be found in AE


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hi Beanstalk,

Great going with the drink exercise.

Okay, so we have looked at the idea of a controller, decider and chooser. Now let’s look at the idea of a doer/doership.

We’ll do a little exercise on this topic. It has to do with the sense of seeing.

Take a few relaxed breaths to let the dust settle for a while, and then:
Look on your right.
Then look on your left.
Finally, bring your head back to centre, close your eyes and look in front.

Okay, so when you look on the right, the view on the right is seen (whatever that is).
When you look on the left, the view on the left is seen (whatever that is).
And then, when you look in front of you with eyes closed, the view in front is seen (ie ‘black space’).

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see? I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off? Can you NOT see what is seen?

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

Can you turn off seeing?

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

So, when the view on the right is seen, do you have the ‘choice’ not to see?

No

I’m not asking can you ‘choose’ to see something else like another view or ‘black space’ if you close your eyes. The question is, can you turn seeing off?

No

Can you NOT see what is seen?

No

Same thing with the view on the left, can you NOT see the view on the left?

No

Same thing with the view in front with closed eyes, can you NOT see the ‘black space’?

No

Can you turn off seeing?

No, there is no way to do so

What did the 'chooser' choose? Did a 'self' choose something?

No, there is no 'chooser' choosing to see

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

The only other thing would be actions/behaviour, though as I saw in the previous exercise I don't choose those either. So there's nothing else to choose


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hello Beanstalk,

If you can't choose what you're aware of, then what else is there to choose?

The only other thing would be actions/behaviour, though as I saw in the previous exercise I don't choose those either. So there's nothing else to choose

Since there is no thinker, controller, chooser, decider, sayer, feeler or doer…than there is nothing to choose, and no one doing the choosing, thinking, controlling, deciding, saying, feeling or doing.

Okay, so let’s have a look at the body.
Sit with eyes closed for about 15 minutes.
Paying attention only to the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images:

Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

Is there an inside or an outside?
If there is an inside - inside of what exactly?
If there is an outside, the outside of what exactly?

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?
What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

Look very carefully, especially with the last question. Take your time, don’t rush. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, having a short break from work, walking, etc.) before replying.

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

Sorry for late reply, I was unable to find wifi yesterday.

Can it be known how tall the body is?

no

Does the body have a weight or volume?

no

Is there a boundary between the body and the clothing?

no, just a sensation labelled 'clothing against body'

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair?

no, just a sensation again

Is there an inside or an outside?

no

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

sensations

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

just sensations


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hey Beanstalk,

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to?

sensations

The WORD/LABEL 'body' is AE of thought

What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?

just sensations

Do the sensations themselves suggest in any way that they are the body?
Have another look, what is the AE of the body?

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?


(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?
Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen.

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?
Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?
Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?
Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

Do the sensations themselves suggest in any way that they are the body?

No

Have another look, what is the AE of the body?

sensations and thoughts about 'body' (though what the thoughts talk about is not AE)

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

there's no connection. there appears to be, as they appear to be moving at the same pace and in the same direction, but it is only thought that says 'they're moving at the same pace and in the same direction' and that 'this means they must be connected'.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

no. just thoughts that say they are connected, for example, 'the image is of a fist and the sensation is compact and feels like a ball so they must be the same thing'

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’?
Or only thoughts suggest it?

only thoughts suggesting it

Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’?

there's nothing in the image alone to suggest that. just a firm identification with it that is a thought

Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all?
Or are there only colours and shapes?

it seems there's so much belief in there being a body that the mind cannot look at it as just colours and shapes, however when I look closely that is all that I find

Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

there can only ever be thoughts/mental images that suggest this, it cannot be known through AE

Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

just sensations

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

only sensations

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?
Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

no AE of walking, just sensations and sound labelled, for example, 'feet on floor', shifting colour/image, and a thought/mental image of 'me' walking

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

just thoughts about a body. it seems that whatever is not there but is believed to be, thought 'compensates' for it by creating an image of what is missing. but these are just AE of thought, nothing more

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

no, just sensations, sounds, colour/image and thoughts about walking

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

only image labelled room and appearing sensations without a location. there could never be any such thing as a 'location' because there's nowhere to be or go. there are only thoughts about a location


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hey Beanstalk,

Great looking with the body exercise!

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

just thoughts about a body. it seems that whatever is not there but is believed to be, thought 'compensates' for it by creating an image of what is missing. but these are just AE of thought, nothing more

Terrific observation!

Okay...so now moving onto time. There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No, there's just the present, not the present and the line of time

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

this was really difficult to see. it certainly seems so, but when I look closely I can only find the 'now', and a memory/thought of a 'previous moment' which is occurring in the now

Any actual experience of one event following another?

no, only the now

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

it isn't. content of experience may be moving, but there's no 'present moment' moving along the line of time in AE

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No

How long does the ‘now’ last?

It can't be measured. it's always the now

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

neither a beginning nor an end can be found

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

it doesn't

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

a memory/thought

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

just thoughts about time


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hey Beanstalk,

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

this was really difficult to see. it certainly seems so, but when I look closely I can only find the 'now', and a memory/thought of a 'previous moment' which is occurring in the now

What does ‘now’ point to? Does it point to time?
What does ‘here’ point to? Does it point to a place?
Or does the ‘here’ and ‘now’ (herenow) point to experience, exactly as it is?

Look into the mirror throughout the day. Body image appears... notice that all that's really there are some colours, and a thought-story saying 'these colours are my body'

When you return to the mirror each time, consider whether these 'body colours' have ever appeared before.

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

Do that for today and report back what you find.

Kay

[thursday123]

Kay,

What does ‘now’ point to? Does it point to time?

no, it points to AE

What does ‘here’ point to? Does it point to a place?

No, it just points to AE

Or does the ‘here’ and ‘now’ (herenow) point to experience, exactly as it is?

Yes, there's nothing else for it to point to

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

I was slightly confused by this one. In the sense that there might be tiny differences in shade/beard length etc, and also different stories about where the body is located, then this may be the only time I've been aware of the exact colours and stories. but on the other hand it's impossible to know because any suggestion the body has appeared before at all is just a thought-story.

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

no, there are just thoughts suggesting the body has appeared before. even 'events' that seem to have happened 2 seconds ago are just thoughts. I felt like I had a mini breakthrough here when I realised the distinction between the body 'now' exactly as it is, and the sense of familiarity with it, which is just a thought.

Is the appearance just appearing 'now' with only a thought-story claiming you've seen this body before?

yes, that's exactly what's happening.


Beanstalk

[forgetmenot]

Hey Beanstalk,

What does ‘now’ point to? Does it point to time?
no, it points to AE

What does ‘here’ point to? Does it point to a place?
No, it just points to AE

What is actual experience? Sound AND thought AND smell AND taste AND sensation AND colour. Is there an ‘AND’? Is experience actually divided? Or is there simply soundthoughtsmelltastesensationcolour?

Or does the ‘here’ and ‘now’ (herenow) point to experience, exactly as it is?

Yes, there's nothing else for it to point to

And what is experience as it is exactly?

Has this body image + story ever appeared before - or is this the only time you have ever been aware of these *exact* colours and this exact story about the body?

I was slightly confused by this one. In the sense that there might be tiny differences in shade/beard length etc, and also different stories about where the body is located, then this may be the only time I've been aware of the exact colours and stories. but on the other hand it's impossible to know because any suggestion the body has appeared before at all is just a thought-story.

Nice looking. So now look around you and see how what you observed with the body is the same with everything that appears. Look at the computer screen, chair, floor, window, other person etc….and ask the same questions with each object. “Has this ……….. (insert object name, and include sound, taste, smell etc) + story every appeared before? Let me know how you go.

Can you find any previous appearances of the body? Where are they? If not how can it be known that the body has appeared before?

no, there are just thoughts suggesting the body has appeared before. even 'events' that seem to have happened 2 seconds ago are just thoughts. I felt like I had a mini breakthrough here when I realised the distinction between the body 'now' exactly as it is, and the sense of familiarity with it, which is just a thought.

Terrific! So this showed you that there really isn’t a past. And that even memory is just a thought. All "memories" are currently appearing thought stories about a non-existent past

Here is an image to help point out the difference between actual experience and the stories thought tells about experience.

That's got to be Albert Einstein, right?



Notice that all that's actually present in the picture are some colours. That's all that's there, colour. Thought then labels these colours as hair, tongue, moustache, nose, eyes, eyebrows, mouth, ears, face and head and a story about this head being that of Albert Einsten.

The image of Einstein is just a story. There is no Einstein of any kind present. Just a story.

Now notice that thought is doing this with everything. In fact, without thought, there wouldn't even seem to be any things.

Kay