See it much of the time but not always

[Zee]

This clip is brilliant at showing this.

It’s a good experiment showing that visual sight and sensation aren’t linked or contained by the other.

Did you look to see if you find anyone actually doing chores?

No, because there wasn’t one assumed. There is no doer of chores. And even “chores” can’t be found. There was, however, a story of repetitive lifting & maneuvering, overusing muscles, muscles becoming sore. None of that is given in direct experience though.. Also, the link between sensations and cause/effect, one sensation leading to sensation of “sore muscles” is imaginary.

When doing chores….break down it down to actual experience and see what is actually appearing?

Seeing box—color, shape
Touching box—sensation
Lifting & moving box—sensation, thoughts arising
Feeling of arms and body fatiguing while moving boxes—sensation, thoughts arising

Is there a difference between experience labelled as ‘colour’ AND experience labelled as ‘sensation’? What makes one "experience" more "experienced" (real or intimate or close) than another experience?

The experiencing isn’t more experienced with one AE or another. Both are 100% experiencing. This was a helpful question. The “stronger experience” thought was already discounted as false because it was only suggested in thought content; that was enough to zap it. But looking right at the AE’s and seeing there’s no “stronger experience” makes the understanding even more solid because it’s the same result obtained from a different angle.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

Is there a difference between experience labelled as ‘colour’ AND experience labelled as ‘sensation’? What makes one "experience" more "experienced" (real or intimate or close) than another experience?

The experiencing isn’t more experienced with one AE or another. Both are 100% experiencing. This was a helpful question. The “stronger experience” thought was already discounted as false because it was only suggested in thought content; that was enough to zap it. But looking right at the AE’s and seeing there’s no “stronger experience” makes the understanding even more solid because it’s the same result obtained from a different angle.

How is it known that THIS/experience itself is divided into colour and sensation and sound and smell and thought and sensation?

What exactly is it that is ‘experiencing’ experience?

Kay

[Zee]

How is it known that THIS/experience itself is divided into colour and sensation and sound and smell and thought and sensation?

It isn’t. There’s only experience (or experiencing). Conceptually dividing and pigeon-holing experiencing into easily recognizable forms of sensing/perception and non-troubling raw AE like coloring, sensing, hearing, smelling, touching, tasting, and thoughts arising just keeps things simple and easier to see/reveal in normal looking that all there is, no matter what is happening or imagined, is basic experiencing, not reliant on thought concepts or any sort of reference point. When conceptually dividing experiencing into “different” raw/simple categories, it can just as easily be further expanded to include thought stories as well. The idea “my hand is moving”, “the apple is rolling off the table”, “this is the taste of an apple” can all be broken back down from those conceptual stories into the 6 AE categories, which can then be further broken back down into “experiencing”. No division exists in experiencing no matter what is going on or imagined to be going on.

What exactly is it that is ‘experiencing’ experience?

No ultimate reference point (or any subject at all) is required for experiencing to be. There’s nothing outside of experience. Experiencing is experiencing, if the question must be answered.

[forgetmenot]

Hello Zee,

What exactly is it that is ‘experiencing’ experience?

No ultimate reference point (or any subject at all) is required for experiencing to be. There’s nothing outside of experience. Experiencing is experiencing, if the question must be answered.

For there to be ‘experiencing’ means that there are more than one experiences…this further means that experience is divided. Are you ever aware of two experiences or more at 'any given time'? When sound shows up, is there a 'sound experience' and a 'knowing of sound' experience?

For experience itself to be experiencing…it would have to be outside of itself. For experience itself to be experiencing…that points to two. A subject/object split ie an experiencer of experience. In other words experience then must be divided…and experience is not divided. Coloursmelltastethoughtsensationsound = experience…they are synonymous.

Where does "what is known" stop, and the "knowing" of it start?

Kay

[Zee]

Where does "what is known" stop, and the "knowing" of it start?

There’s no “what is known”; there’s only knowing/being/experiencing.
There’s also no “knowing of”, just knowing or being (without the “of”). Being shaping, being hearing, being tasting…even being baby, being an apple. All are examples of being taking apparent form, even if just in imagination/thought.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

Where does "what is known" stop, and the "knowing" of it start?

There’s no “what is known”; there’s only knowing/being/experiencing.
There’s also no “knowing of”, just knowing or being (without the “of”). Being shaping, being hearing, being tasting…even being baby, being an apple. All are examples of being taking apparent form, even if just in imagination/thought.

So nicely expressed :)

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on this linear time, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Any actual experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

Kay

[Zee]

But is there an experience that the ’now’ is moving along the line of time?

No

Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

No

Any actual experience of one event following another?

No, there is no actual experience of one event following another but the thought story is still convincing at times. When “absence of a me” was seen in all AE, including seeing, the idea of distance (here and over there) also dissolved. So, it’s possible to be clear on distance/space but still have some buy-in on sequence of events. Time/space is seen through experientially, but on the time side, convincing thoughts still creep up even though no sequence of events is findable in AE. Space side of the equation is good though.

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?

Not moving

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began?

No

How long does the ‘now’ last?

Not subject to measurement as it isn’t an object

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?

If the ‘now’ is another word for “being”, it isn’t in time. It is the substance of the concept of time but can’t be contained or measured by it.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?

Never, except in thought content.

What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Thoughts appearing.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

No, only thoughts. Can’t be found in AE. But the thoughts of duration and succession can be convincing. And no, can’t find anyone who is convinced or fooled by time. It’s just an unclear feeling.

[forgetmenot]

Hi Zee,

Any actual experience of one event following another?

No, there is no actual experience of one event following another but the thought story is still convincing at times. When “absence of a me” was seen in all AE, including seeing, the idea of distance (here and over there) also dissolved. So, it’s possible to be clear on distance/space but still have some buy-in on sequence of events. Time/space is seen through experientially, but on the time side, convincing thoughts still creep up even though no sequence of events is findable in AE. Space side of the equation is good though.

Is it a ‘feeling’ that seems to be convincing? Check with AE. What is the AE of the feeling? Is it an actual sensation or just an idea?

If it is an actual body sensation...does a 'feeling' know anything about time or space?

Imagine you lost your keys and you could swear you left them in your pocket. But when you go to check, they are not there. You empty out all your pockets, still no keys. You FEEL very strongly that they must be there because that was the last place you saw them. But they are simply not there. In this case, your actual experience contradicts what it is you are FEELING. This happens all the time.

Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
If the ‘now’ is another word for “being”, it isn’t in time. It is the substance of the concept of time but can’t be contained or measured by it.

When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
Never, except in thought content.

Lovely, yes. ‘Here’ doesn’t refer to a place, nor does ‘now’ refer to a time.
HereNow points to the current and evident knowledge of experience, no matter what it is appearing as.

So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

No, only thoughts. Can’t be found in AE. But the thoughts of duration and succession can be convincing. And no, can’t find anyone who is convinced or fooled by time. It’s just an unclear feeling.

As above.

Past and memory go hand-in-hand as almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened; that a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

Please don’t go to thought explanation, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

WHEN does the memory actually appear?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?
If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

Kay

[Zee]

Hi Kay,

Is it a ‘feeling’ that seems to be convincing? Check with AE. What is the AE of the feeling? Is it an actual sensation or just an idea?

Just an idea. Thought arising.

If it is an actual body sensation...does a 'feeling' know anything about time or space?

It doesn’t and can’t.

What is memory exactly?

Thoughts

What is the memory ‘made of’?

Thoughts arising

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?

None

WHEN does the memory actually appear?

In presence, now

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

It isn’t known

Then, look at a thought about the future.
What is the future thought ‘made of’?

Thoughts arising

WHEN does the future thought appear?

In presence, now

What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?

None

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It isn’t known. But the hook is still there. Feeling a lot better about “past”, but “future” thoughts still feel like they are pointing to unknown arisings yet to come.

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

No difference in actual experience but the “past thoughts” are more easily accepted as simply “thoughts arising”. Regrets, and would’ve, could’ve, should’ve (past thoughts) don’t have the same pull as wondering what the future holds.

If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

No difference. Past thoughts and Future thoughts are both present arisings but there are some thoughts labelled “future” that seem to alter feeling light & free. Thoughts are that that would only be happening with a belief in linear time and a lingering belief in an entity that an unknown future could enhance or damage somehow.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

It isn’t known. But the hook is still there. Feeling a lot better about “past”, but “future” thoughts still feel like they are pointing to unknown arisings yet to come.

Only if you think you are a separate self that is the doer, see-er, thinker, sayer and feeler. The "future" is a presently appearing, self-consistent 'conceptual story', about this now.

What exactly is it that is hooked about a future?
Where exactly is this future? Where in thoughtcoloursmellsoundsensation do you find the next minute, the next hour, the next day or the future?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.
What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

No difference in actual experience but the “past thoughts” are more easily accepted as simply “thoughts arising”. Regrets, and would’ve, could’ve, should’ve (past thoughts) don’t have the same pull as wondering what the future holds.

Are you the author of thought? Is there a ‘you’ who can control what thoughts appear and when? And even if there were a future, is there a ‘you’ that is responsible for anything that does or doesn’t happen in the future?

If there is difference, how that difference is known exactly?

No difference. Past thoughts and Future thoughts are both present arisings but there are some thoughts labelled “future” that seem to alter feeling light & free. Thoughts are that that would only be happening with a belief in linear time and a lingering belief in an entity that an unknown future could enhance or damage somehow.

Yes exactly! What exactly is it that could be “feeling light and free”? And what is it exactly that could feel the opposite of light and free?
And to what exactly would a future be happening to?

Is there any actual experience of one event following another? Any experience of one moment giving way to the next? Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began and where it is going to? Look for yourself now, and see if you can find one moment turning into another, it's simple. Or do you only find this 'moment' in which thought say that it is one of many.

Here's a dream analogy of how all of "time" is contained in an instant of thought.
In the "opening instant" of a dream you find yourself speeding along a highway towards the airport, because you're late for your holiday flight, because your partner couldn't find her passport. Now you'll notice that this is just the "opening instant" of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult, and married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc, etc, and it contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.

Kay

[Zee]

Hi Kay,

What exactly is it that is hooked about a future?

There is nothing that is hooked about a future. Only presently appearing thoughts that say arisings “will happen”.

Where exactly is this future?

In thought

Where in thoughtcoloursmellsoundsensation do you find the next minute, the next hour, the next day or the future?

Can never find the next minute except in present thoughts about it. And that would be just an idea of the next minute.

Are you the author of thought?

There’s not an author of thought as in here I am and the thought is something else. But thoughts arise in me so there’s a complete intimacy whether there’s an author or not. I can see it. Not a thought me or a body me that thoughts arise in. Thoughts arise within what seems to be silence and then dissipate. I can’t be separate from that silent field and there’s no way for that silence to travel through time that I can figure out.

Is there a ‘you’ who can control what thoughts appear and when?

No

And even if there were a future, is there a ‘you’ that is responsible for anything that does or doesn’t happen in the future?

No, but an imaginary character can arise in thought and be the “fall guy” in thought or the “hero” in thought. The idea of future, the fall guy, and the hero all arise in me, presently. It still plays out in thought even though that contracted role can never be who or what I am.

Yes exactly! What exactly is it that could be “feeling light and free”?

There’s a light and free feeling most of the time. There’s no object or personal identity that feels this way; it’s just sensation and thoughts of well-being arising.

And what is it exactly that could feel the opposite of light and free?

That’s a great question. I was going to say a thought-based character but an imaginary character can’t feel anything. Let’s just say an arising of thoughts interpreted as urgent or stressful appearing, but not appearing to any thing.

And to what exactly would a future be happening to?

Another good question because being can’t go into the future to have anything happen to it and I’m not separate from being so future can’t happen “to me” in essence.

Is there any actual experience of one event following another?

No

Any experience of one moment giving way to the next?

No, but change is noticed in apparent forms, and thoughts appear about the movement of time based on noticed change. There’s no evidence the two are linked and nothing about changes in apparent form, or ever-fresh AEs, that requires time.

Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began and where it is going to?

No

Look for yourself now, and see if you can find one moment turning into another, it's simple. Or do you only find this 'moment' in which thought say that it is one of many.

There is not a moment turning into another. There are only thoughts saying there are many moments, past events that happened with current snapshots and movies in thought, and thoughts about the future. But none of those thoughts ever happen in a past or a future, only now.

Here's a dream analogy of how all of "time" is contained in an instant of thought.
In the "opening instant" of a dream you find yourself speeding along a highway towards the airport, because you're late for your holiday flight, because your partner couldn't find her passport. Now you'll notice that this is just the "opening instant" of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult, and married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc, etc, and it contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.

There’s nothing that can be done now about the passport or the late departure from home. The only thing that’s left is to catch the plane (in that dream).

Here’s the thing. There’s no traveling to the past or the future or being in the past or future. Past and future thoughts can only be current formations in being. But the past, even as a concept, refers to something that is over. There’s no going back, so it would be insane (or normal depending on how you look at it) to anguish about the past or to have a problem about the past. Whether I was or wasn’t my parents’ favorite, whether romantic relationships worked or didn’t work out, whether I made or didn’t make the team, or whether I did or didn’t get the promotion matter not. Not at all. I clearly see that there are no could’ves or should’ves or would’ves. Not just as a self-help mantra to not think about what could’ve been; there seriously does not exist a could’ve or a should’ve. But the “future” still appears to hook even though I’ve looked and can’t find a me (that is truly me) that can be in the future—only a fall guy made of thought made of being, projected into thoughts about an “unknown future” that must be prepared for. As being, I am always present. Any idea of a me one day being in the future can only be appearing presently. The illusion breaks right away when I notice that no future is in actual experience. But there are no subjects or objects in actual experience either. When not looking, seeming objects and reference points being to reappear and a belief in duality creeps back in, most of which doesn’t feel problematic. But the idea of a future and a me that can be in it aren’t clear thoughts and are not conducive to stress-free unfoldings (even though being itself can never be stressed, thoughts labelled as stressful can appear). Who’s that a problem for? Nobody. But still, it’s not a feeling of ease.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

What exactly is it that is hooked about a future?

There is nothing that is hooked about a future. Only presently appearing thoughts that say arisings “will happen”.

Yes and that those ‘arisings’ will be happening to a ‘Zeeself’!

Are you the author of thought?

There’s not an author of thought as in here I am and the thought is something else. But thoughts arise in me so there’s a complete intimacy whether there’s an author or not. I can see it. Not a thought me or a body me that thoughts arise in. Thoughts arise within what seems to be silence and then dissipate. I can’t be separate from that silent field and there’s no way for that silence to travel through time that I can figure out.

Thought IS an appearance (arising), and an "appearance" is just another word for THIS (or 'experience') exactly as it is.

And what is it exactly that could feel the opposite of light and free?

That’s a great question. I was going to say a thought-based character but an imaginary character can’t feel anything. Let’s just say an arising of thoughts interpreted as urgent or stressful appearing, but not appearing to any thing.

The AE of urgent or stressful is thought. The sensations labelled as urgent/stressful are AE of sensation and not AE of stressful or urgent.

And to what exactly would a future be happening to?

Another good question because being can’t go into the future to have anything happen to it and I’m not separate from being so future can’t happen “to me” in essence.

Is there you in essence and a you in form?

Any experience of one moment giving way to the next?

No, but change is noticed in apparent forms, and thoughts appear about the movement of time based on noticed change. There’s no evidence the two are linked and nothing about changes in apparent form, or ever-fresh AEs, that requires time

.

Experience/THIS is fluid – not static and appears as all appearances but it does not become those appearances. Experience may seem to appear as 'change'. But that doesn't mean experience is changing. Just as experience may appear as 'blue', but that does not mean experience is blue. 'Blue' is experience, experience is not 'blue'. (Blue is appearing/showing up as experience but experience is not blue)



It's like looking at a lava lamp. The wax may seem to change shape, and the shapes (forms) it seems to take may seem to be present one moment, and absent the next. But all that is known is the wax. Nothing actually changed and nothing was ever born or lost, although it may have seemed to. All that is known is experience - nothing can be added to it, nor taken away.

Here's a dream analogy of how all of "time" is contained in an instant of thought.
In the "opening instant" of a dream you find yourself speeding along a highway towards the airport, because you're late for your holiday flight, because your partner couldn't find her passport. Now you'll notice that this is just the "opening instant" of the dream, yet it contains a whole "history" of being a person who is an adult, and married to a woman who left her passport behind, etc, etc, and it contains "memories" of having the drama with the lost passport, and it has a whole imaginary future too, in the flight and the holiday.

There’s nothing that can be done now about the passport or the late departure from home. The only thing that’s left is to catch the plane (in that dream).

Yes…but it is still a ‘projected’ future of what will be done on the holiday etc. How could this possibly be known? There are thoughts about what may or may not happen…but they are still only thoughts appearing now.

But the idea of a future and a me that can be in it aren’t clear thoughts and are not conducive to stress-free unfoldings (even though being itself can never be stressed, thoughts labelled as stressful can appear). Who’s that a problem for? Nobody. But still, it’s not a feeling of ease.

So let’s look at the idea of fear/anxiety that seems to appear with the thoughts about a future.

So bring to mind the thoughts about the future that seem to bring with them the feelings of ‘anxiety’. Then close your eyes and do the following:

1) Look at the label/thought ‘anxiety’ itself. See the label/word ‘anxiety’ as a typewritten word in the ‘mind’s eye’ across the forehead

Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?
Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?
Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?

2) Then look at the sensation and ignore everything else but the sensation itself.
Inquire into the sensation and ask if the sensation itself knows anything about ‘anxiety’.

Look and see if the sensation itself is the anxious self. If the words ‘yes’ , or ‘yes, this is the self’ appears, go back to Step 1 and see the words across the forehead and repeat step 1.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'anxiety' or that it is anxious?
Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious as you did in step 1.

3) Look at the mental image/outline labelled body.

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’?
Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.

If other random mental images appear during the noticing of the sensation, check to see if those images are the self who is anxious, or are they images that are simply arising and subsiding? If other ‘loud’ thoughts appear, check to see if they are the self that is anxious, as you did in step 1.

4) With eyes still closed look everywhere (look where thought says your feet are, to the left and right, up above…look everywhere) and see if you can find anyone or anything that is anxious.

Did you find anyone or anything that is anxious?

When you have done this and if no one/no thing is found, then just sit with the sensation. Just breathe normally, notice the thoughts and images that appear and let them pass on by unless they seem to hang around, then do the appropriate steps above. Allow the sensation all the room it needs in the body without pushing it aside or judging it. If it becomes too intense just take a couple of deep breaths into the sensation itself, and then notice the floor under your feet, notice your backside on the chair and then notice what is in the room you are sitting in and name them out loud, while being aware of the sensation and remember to breathe normally. If the sensation does not dissipate at all or only dissipates a little, that is okay, just notice it, without doing anything with it and just go about your day.

We are not trying to get rid of the sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ or the arising thoughts or images. We are only LOOKING to see what is actually appearing (ie thought, sensation, colour/image) as opposed to what thought is saying ABOUT what actually IS.

Let me know how you go.

The label ‘anxiety’is the AE of thought and not the AE of anxiety
The sensation labelled ‘anxiety’ is the AE of sensation and not the AE of anxiety
The colour labelled ‘me/I/body’ is the AE of colour and not the AE of anxiety
The thoughts ABOUT anxiety are AE of thought and not AE of anxiety

So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?
Label ‘anxiety’ is known and thoughts about ‘anxiety’ are known, however, is ‘anxiety’ actually known?

Kay

[Zee]

Is there you in essence and a you in form?

No, just in essence. And I have no problem failing the final questioning if the rules state that I have to say I don’t exist. There’s no Zeeself that is me and no physical body that is me. But the essence of all those imaginary things (Zeeself in thought and the body called Zee) is me and the essence of the Kayself is not apart from me either. As you say, it’s all lava lamp wax (the real I/me)), not specific shapes or blue or red.

Yes…but it is still a ‘projected’ future of what will be done on the holiday etc. How could this possibly be known? There are thoughts about what may or may not happen…but they are still only thoughts appearing now.

It can’t possibly be known, and that’s part of the hook. Thought content about AE and thought content about “the past” are easily seen as thoughts arising and that’s the end of it. Thought content about “the future” is also seen as thoughts arising but there’s also the mysterious side of it—“I’m just thoughts arising but I’m not going to tell you my content; I’m going to let you guess and be concerned about me”. If the bait is taken, the fact that it’s just thought arising is overlooked.

Does the label ‘anxiety’ know anything about anxiety, or is the word just a bunch of letters?

No, just characters

Is the label ‘anxiety’ itself anxious?

No

Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?

No, there’s nobody and nothing that could be trapped in a label or word. Seems like a silly question at first but when looked into very revealing! You’re ruining all the fun taking away my ability to say “I’m concerned” about the future. Thank you for this gift of pointing.

Does the sensation itself suggest in any way that it is 'anxiety' or that it is anxious?

No

Can you find anyone or anything within or behind the sensation that is 'anxious'?

No

Does the image/outline itself know anything about ‘anxiety’?

No

Can you find anyone/anything in the image/colour itself that knows anything about ‘anxiety’ or that can be ‘anxious’.

No

Did you find anyone or anything that is anxious?

No

So, is there actual experience of ‘anxiety’ or what is actually appearing (AE) is label + sensation + colour + thoughts ABOUT anxiety?

Thoughts arising labelled as anxiety

Label ‘anxiety’ is known and thoughts about ‘anxiety’ are known, however, is ‘anxiety’ actually known?

No, and that’s pretty cool!

Let me know how you go.

Really enjoyed doing all the looking in these exercises. I tried on other adjectives too, in addition to anxious, like “I am so bored!” and “I am so ashamed!” and really tried to feel them and saw there was no boring or shame in the words and couldn’t find anything bored or ashamed. Then I imagined I was “So tired”. The word tired isn’t tired but I stumbled on this adjective thinking a body could be tired or fatigued. Then I remembered not to look in imagination and suppose a body. We’re only supposed to see if AE is tired. And there’s no color or shape that could be tired or be contained by that label.

[forgetmenot]

Hey Zee,

Fantastic looking at the idea of ‘anxiety’. To me, this is one of the best ways to look to see if there is a ‘me’ that anything is happening to. I also loved the fact that you tried the exercise with other adjectives. You can also do this exercise with ‘others’ simply by using their name and seeing if you can find them in their name and following the rest of the exercise.

Can you find anyone/anything in the word itself that is anxious?

No, there’s nobody and nothing that could be trapped in a label or word. Seems like a silly question at first but when looked into very revealing! You’re ruining all the fun taking away my ability to say “I’m concerned” about the future. Thank you for this gift of pointing.

This is so lovely to read! :) Thank you for being so diligent in looking.

Let me know how you go.

Really enjoyed doing all the looking in these exercises. I tried on other adjectives too, in addition to anxious, like “I am so bored!” and “I am so ashamed!” and really tried to feel them and saw there was no boring or shame in the words and couldn’t find anything bored or ashamed. Then I imagined I was “So tired”. The word tired isn’t tired but I stumbled on this adjective thinking a body could be tired or fatigued. Then I remembered not to look in imagination and suppose a body. We’re only supposed to see if AE is tired. And there’s no color or shape that could be tired or be contained by that label.

And there is no sensation that could be tired either!

Okay…we have come to the end of what I explore with people for them to realise that there is no separate self. So that I know that everything is clear and that we have covered everything….could you please answer the following questions in some detail….and give examples where asked.

Can you answer the following questions with some detail please, and answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer. Also please provide examples where asked.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.
Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this?
What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

6) Anything to add?

Kay

[Zee]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

No, never

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience.

The separate self is thought ideation (learned early in life through socialization and the belief implanted that words and language can describe and separate reality into parts) about a particular body (pieced/imagined from actual experience of form, color, and sensation) and “personal” thoughts (impersonal thoughts arising) that include desires, fears, preferences, and stories about what happened to this “me” and what will happen to “me”. This self is seen as having choice and the power to do things and navigate life. The self is always under threat because even good decisions and actions don’t always work out because the self is just a little being within a larger system and depends on the environment and others for things to play out how the self wants them to. So, no matter how skillfully we individuals live our lives as separate selves there’s always the fear that something beyond our control will happen that we don’t want or we won’t get what we worked hard to earn. That lack of total control in all things is rarely investigated as a clue to the self having no control (and no existence as a separate entity). Thoughts say “I can control a few things” but that doesn’t make sense nor is it findable in actual experience a me who can control anything.

Describe it fully as you see it now.

Now, it is seen as unreal. In the seeing that actual experience is all there is, there are no subjects and no objects, and hence no separate me.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Very natural and free. No self and lack of labelling and separating AE into assumed objects happened for large portions of the day even before seeing through the me, but now, the thoughts suggesting a separate me feel unnatural and ingenuine. Feelings of lightness, freedom, and losing oneself in work or play are no longer viewed as easy flowing respites from “real life”, but how life really functions. The separate me doesn’t fit anymore.

What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

A clear seeing of no separate me in actual experience. However, the recognition wasn’t complete as there was a noticing that the “future” still caused some concern. Seeing through the future as imagination and only presently arising thoughts and seeing that there is nothing and nobody that can actually be concerned erased that sticking point about the future.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Nothing made me look. I was just reading a post by Kay written to somebody else asking about whether an I or separate me could be found in AE, and the post listed the 6 AE’s and asked if a me was findable in each them. I just read the post and didn’t do anything special besides looking into what Kay was asking and there weren’t any expectations. I was just curious about the dialogue. But the surprise came when the looking revealed “no me” and how simple it was to see it. Years before, I had mentally worked out that the thought “I” couldn’t hear or see anything but there was still a feeling that the personal me existed on some level even though there was no proof. When I saw the absence of me upon working through the questions Kay posted, I didn’t have a spiritual gameface on or muster any type of meditative courage at the time. I just looked as in normal looking. In seeing, is there a me?—no, In hearing, is there a me?—no,…

5) a) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how things happen and how things work.

There is nobody to make decisions, have intention, freewill, or choice and control. Life unfolds effortlessly. There is also no thing findable existing as decision, intention, freewill, choice, or control in actual experience. But what could be labelled as choices and actions happen, authored by no one, and happen when they happen. Examples given during my dialogue included a car issue that needed to be rectified in minus 29 degree weather and a large insurance liability that needed sorting out. Neither issue required “a me” with elaborate plans or struggling or complaining about why this is happening. Without worrying about it, the solution appeared; I did nothing to author the arrival of the solution. Then what needed to be done calmly happened. The “right” solution revealed itself for each of those “big” issues with nobody on-board figuring it out. Another example was years ago, in 2008, the year was chock full of responsibilities and a seeming impossibility to accomplish even half of what needed to be done. There was just a letting go completely to get adequate rest, eat when needed, and watch the body do whatever it needed to do 18 hours per day without any internal resistance or excessive planning. There were a few minor bumps but overall everything turned out well without an assumed doer who was running the show. That view wore off, efforting and concern appeared to start happening again, and then thoughts appeared to rediscover it through LU dialogue.

b) What are you responsible for? Give examples from your own recent experiences to how this works.

Nothing because there isn’t a separate me. See examples in #5.

6) Anything to add?

I’m really impressed with LU. I originally thought LU was just for people who wanted to argue or be chastised into submission for believing in a me. And I also thought the understanding imparted would be lopsided as in just getting a glimpse of the absence of self and not much more. I got a great feeling however once I put aside my prejudices, wrote on the board, and was lucky enough to get Kay as a guide. I’m really surprised that the exercises led to more than a glimpse of no separate me, they led to actual conclusive seeing that there is no separate me. And the LU dialogue doesn’t lead to a lopsided or incomplete understanding like barren emptiness or nihilism. Kay wrote to someone else and said her specialty was in pointing to that there is no me to have problems, but her method of guiding does much more than that. The continued looking into experience leads to a knowledge of integration (no separate me and no separate anything) because it is seen that all there is is AE; all there is is this reality. It's hard to believe such a comprehensive sharing takes place at an online setting hosted by volunteers. I’m very grateful for my experience!