Liberation

[Suzanne68]

The « I » thought is different, it is more permanent, more fixed, less fleeting. It doesn’t seem to come from the same place.
Can you explain how is it different ?
Where is it when you don't think about it ?

Hello again,
The I thoughts are different because there is identity and familiarity attached to them. There’s a
« Meness »to them. They don’t seem to come from nowhere unlike other random thoughts. They feel familiar to me. That’s the major difference. For the rest, they come and go just like other thoughts.
And I don’t know where they come from.
I don’t know where these thoughts are when I don’t think about them.

[Suzanne68]

I’m confused now... so there is a thinker of thoughts? But a thought is just a thought. I thoughts are the same as any other thoughts no?
:)
It's ok no need for confusion. Just simply look and see, sure thought is a thought!
Isnt "i" another content of the thought ?

Ok I’m getting it. The direct experience of thought is just like the senses. There’s always a content to thought and the I story is content. Like sounds are content of the ears hearing, so to speak.
It’s a more regular content that I experience more often than other thoughts.

[adilerten]

The I thoughts are different because there is identity and familiarity attached to them. There’s a
« Meness »to them.

Can you explain a bit more please what is meness ?
What is the actual experience of "meness" ?
isn't the content of the thought is more thougts ?

[adilerten]

Lets look deeper to content of thoughts, what they describe..



When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying,
"I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure?
Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known color labelled ‘apple’ is known sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known?

[Suzanne68]

and meanwhile let's look how automatic these thoughts happen,
Sit down and relax. Observe this focus of attention... see how it wanders. It simply focusses on whatever happens in the moment.
Now it might focus on thought. You might even "get lost in thought"...

Did you decide to get lost in thought? Or did it simply happen?
When "you" come back to present moment experiencing, did you control how/when this happened?
Can you control thought?
Or is this simply a constant flow, a constant change and movement..?
Can you control "i" thought arising

I wanted to finish the last questions before moving on to the apple dilemma.
So, it’s totally random in there! Everything just happens. Sometimes I hear a plane roar, then it’s a draft on my skin, a thought (in which I get lost in and invent a scenario) then another plane roar, a car, coffee smell, and so on.
I don’t control either when I come back to presence either. Although I thought that was the point of training in meditation.
So yes it’s simply a flow of ever changing sensations succeeding one another. And no I control the I thought either. But what I’m saying is that I immediately identify with the I thoughts and thus get lost in the story right away. That’s the “meness” that i was referring to. Thoughts of what’s for dinner or I have to pay the rent are not so sticky. But the I thoughts that relate to me and my feelings or opinions, fantasies or fears about the future for example are much more intense. But no control over that process altogether. So in short no control over the thoughts arising and passing. I don’t know where they come from either.

Thank you, this rigorous approach is very useful.
Metta,
Suzanne

[Suzanne68]

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying,
"I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure?
Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation

If thoughts are actual experience, do you the process? But the content is the thought no? I find it difficult to know the difference between thought and content of a thought. Thinking is always about something right? The two go together. How can actual experience be thinking but not it’s content?

[Suzanne68]

Image

When looking at an apple, there's color; a thought saying ‘apple’; and maybe a thought saying,
"I'm looking at an apple." What is known for sure?
Color is known and thoughts are known.

What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, color, smell, taste, sensation.

Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only color and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?

Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual experience.

This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure, and, is always here.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known color labelled ‘apple’ is known sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known

However, is an apple actually known

Good morning Adil,
There’s no apple there since Apple is a word for a concept, like car or flower. There’s no single fixed and unchanging Apple there in actual experience. The sensations are there for sure and the mind thinking of the concept Apple. Then there’s all the contents related to the concept of apple that i’ve accumulated with all the experiences that I’ve had with apples so far.
But no there is no apple there. That’s just content of a thought, which isn’t real and concrete.

[Suzanne68]

Content of thought, doesn’t exist. It’s like a dream. It feels real but it isn’t real and concrete. It’s invented by the mind, to fit with expectations about the Apple.

Metta
MC

[adilerten]

Content of thought, doesn’t exist. It’s like a dream. It feels real but it isn’t real and concrete. It’s invented by the mind, to fit with expectations about the Apple.

Metta
MC

Thank you for the answers Suzanne, good looking!
I see that you get what i wanted for you to get from these excercises
that "meness" that you mention is a feeling..
but focus on that feeling and LOOK directly
Does this feeling carry any information that it is a `me?
and tell me what is not happening itself ?

[Suzanne68]

And tell me what is not happening itself ?

I am not sure that I understand the question, what is not happening when thoughts occur?

[Suzanne68]

y’a

but focus on that feeling and LOOK directly
Does this feeling carry any information that it is a me?
and tell me what is not happening itself ?

I can’t find any solid information about me. I don’t see any proof that it is there, Unchanging and permanent.
What is not happening itself is, if I understand the question correctly: A « me » is not happening in reality. It’s nowhere to be found or experienced directly by the mind and the senses. I can’t find concrete information about the I. What’s happening is a serie of thought moments, sense moments, getting lost in them, and moving on to another, and on and on and on. That’s all I see.
However, actual experience feels alien and bland to me. Direct experience feels forced. That would be just another passing feeling. The

[adilerten]

Thank you for the answers Suzanne,
Let's look

I can’t find any solid information about me. I don’t see any proof that it is there, Unchanging and permanent.

Very good. Sure there is nothing there but a thought about a self. Imagination. Idea.

What is not happening itself is, if I understand the question correctly: A « me » is not happening in reality. It’s nowhere to be found or experienced directly by the mind and the senses. I can’t find concrete information about the I. What’s happening is a serie of thought moments, sense moments, getting lost in them, and moving on to another, and on and on and on. That’s all I see.

What i meant by asking this was;
Can you see how everything is automatic ?
Even thoughts pop up themselves without any effort.
You dont do anything to make your eyes see ears hear.
So does this flowing nature of life need an idea of a "you" to go on happening..
Can you find something does not happen it self ?

However, actual experience feels alien and bland to me. Direct experience feels forced. That would be just another passing feeling.

IS there any other way of perceiving things other than direct experience ?
You experience colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste..and thought labels these. You can go on believing what thought says but it does not say always the truth you know :)
But i hear you, this will also change if you focus on our work.
Let's make some exercises for this..

[adilerten]

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

[adilerten]

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can.
Label daily activities simply colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/colour
Smelling coffee, simply = smell,
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation.
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought.

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all actual experience) and report back how you go.

and please bring me few examples like i did
thank you
sending much love

[Suzanne68]

Can you see how everything is automatic ?
Even thoughts pop up themselves without any effort.
You dont do anything to make your eyes see ears hear.
So does this flowing nature of life need an idea of a "you" to go on happening..
Can you find something does not happen it self ?

Hi Adil!
Yes I can see that it is automatic. Everything arises without effort. A me is not a necessity for all of nature to flow. So yes everything happens itself without the I or me controlling it, making it happen. It all makes sense from a perspective of nature happening, sounds from a plane, seeing a dog, etc... But what about speech? I do decide to say something at some point. Isn't there some sort of decision/ control over that?