Looking for a clearer look

[Philosoraptr]

Also, remember this exercise if you are tempted to try to analyze or answer with a story/thought:

Colored Socks

The reiteration was a helpful reminder. It's nuts how quickly I've come back to rely on thought. And I've heard it so many times that the answer is not in the mind. The article was a used read. Going to keep that and the socks top of mind from now. Less thinking more looking!

[Anastacia42]

Great. It can only help. Thinking will still be happening. Observe it. YOU are not "thinking."

:)

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy,Have done the exercise and here's the answers below.

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labeled and answer the following four questions

:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

The second one is truer in the sense that it feels closer to the direct experience and for lack of a better word the labelling without I allows the experience to be felt more directly.

2. What is here without labels?

The direct experience that is happening or being experienced

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

The labels in the second case don't affect the experience and Describe it accurately but in the first case attention seemed to shift towards the thought AE vs the other AEs that were present and being labelled.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

In the second case without the I labels there seemed to be more relaxing of the body and being more aware of sounds and sensations.

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

Yes, exactly on all counts.

The body relaxes in the presence of Truth and tenses in the presence of Lies. That is very good to notice.

I will give you a new exercise in a little bit, but I wanted to let you know that I got this.

Much love,

[Philosoraptr]

The body relaxes in the presence of Truth and tenses in the presence of Lies. That is very good to notice

.

Quite amazing when you think (or rather direct experience it) about it! The one thing that has been nagging me (as a thought but I felt it was important to ask) was about whether it's important to repeat these exercises during the day in order for it to sink in. I have a bit of guilt sometimes if I'm lost in thought all day or totally operating counter to the things that are realized. Does this matter?

I will give you a new exercise in a little bit, but I wanted to let you know that I got this.

Sounds good.

Thanks for all of this help guiding, Stacy. Much appreciated always.
Love
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid,

Yes, it is helpful to practice the exercises. It's like building a muscle. At the same time, once no self is seen some of that will drop away. And then when it comes back again, which it will, you can resume practice as needed.

Okay, now try this:

Observing thoughts

Here is a thought exercise. Sit quietly for about 30 minutes and notice the arising thoughts.

Just let them appear as they appear. Try your best to COMPLETELY ignore what they are saying and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all.

Where are they coming from and going to?

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Can you predict your next thought?

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts?

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts?

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing?

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence?

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

Take your time. One at a time. Let me know how it goes.

Much love,

[Philosoraptr]

Thanks Stacy, Will work on these and get back.

Love
Sid

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, I spent time with this today and here are my thoughts. Appreciate your feedback.

Where are they coming from and going to?

 

They come from nothing and they end in nothing. I.e initially there's nothing and then thought forms or rather appears as language along with being understood simultaneously. Also I feel they are located around me.

Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear

It looks like they appear in response to events happening in the other AE senses. I.e a sensation comes first and a thought appears. And I'm not making them appear.

Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead?

Nope. What comes up is what comes up. No changes at that instant are possible.

Can you predict your next thought?

I tested this and found certain thoughts like "I'll count to 10" were able to let me predict the next thought (actual numbers) but that only has a short window before it trails of. So in a sense yes in a limited fashion I can, but not the thought that started the series.

Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts

Hmm. No they're pretty spontaneous and I can't influence their content.

Can you choose not to have painful, negative or fearful thoughts

No.

But I can direct attention away from something that is known to generate negative thoughts. Like seeing one thought come up, and then another saying it negative and a decision to look away or distract me from having more of those thoughts.

Also, I feel I can become aware of a particular bodily function and focus on that to suppress thoughts such as focusing on breath. That can be done without a thought that initiated it.

Can you pick and choose any kind of thought?

Nope

Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? 

No I can't stop them from appearing.

It seems that thought has some logical ordered appearance, but look carefully and just notice if there is an organised sequence? 

Or is that just another thought that says ‘these thoughts are in sequence’ or “they take content from previous thought”, or that ‘one thought follows another thought’?

I'm not sure about this one. For example i can have 5 thoughts, one following each other that logically are connected (in content) and build on each other. And there might be a thought as well that says they are connected. Even if we invalidate the thought that claims it, the contents of thought are connected yes?

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid,

Good work!

Okay . . . let's look at some details:

Also I feel they are located around me.

Can you find this "me" that they are "located around?"

LOOK, really look.

Where exactly is it? Can you See, Hear, Feel, Taste or Smell this "me?" Is it the body? We'll look at that with an exercise later. Where is it? Point to this "me."

Can you predict your next thought?

I tested this and found certain thoughts like "I'll count to 10" were able to let me predict the next thought (actual numbers) but that only has a short window before it trails of. So in a sense yes in a limited fashion I can, but not the thought that started the series.

But how did you "decide" to count and not to say the alphabet or the multiplication tables? Did any "me" actually "choose?"

And isn't any learned sequence the same as learned language? Check. These are the content of thought. Someone had to teach you about them. They have no meaning on their own. No AE. Just like any learned string of words.

But I can direct attention away from something that is known to generate negative thoughts. Like seeing one thought come up, and then another saying it negative and a decision to look away or distract me from having more of those thoughts.

Can you? If so, please describe exactly HOW you do this? What is the mechanism? What are the steps you take? Thoughts are tricky. We believe so many untrue things that we don't even notice. We've just accepted them and gotten used to them. But again, HOW did you do some thing called "direct attention away?"

Also, I feel I can become aware of a particular bodily function and focus on that to suppress thoughts such as focusing on breath. That can be done without a thought that initiated it.

Same questions: Please describe exactly HOW you do this. What is the mechanism? What steps do you take?

Point to the exact moment of this choice or decision. What happens?

HOW do you "suppress" a thought? (Yes, everything is done without a thought that initiated it. That's the point here.)

You say you "feel" you can become aware, but where do you "feel" this? Or is it actually a thought?

Is this all Thought Arising, with content that cannot be Seen, Heard, Felt, Smelled or Tasted?

Check very carefully. LOOK.

I'm not sure about this one. For example i can have 5 thoughts, one following each other that logically are connected (in content) and build on each other. And there might be a thought as well that says they are connected. Even if we invalidate the thought that claims it, the contents of thought are connected yes?

Yes, this seems to be the case ONLY if Thought says so. There is no reality to any kind of "logic" or "sequence" if you take away this thought that says so. But do not believe me. You must LOOK and see it for yourself.

We aren't "invalidating" the thought. We are LOOKING at it to see if it can be proven with the 5 senses. Can it? If not, well, I suppose that invalidates it, but it was invalid to begin with.

Check these all very thoroughly and let me know what arises. Don't let it confuse you. Stick with ACTUAL EXPERIENCE.

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling
Tasting
Smelling
Thought Arising (but never the content of the thought, which is always made up, had to be learned, cannot be found with the senses.)

Much Love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, I'm doing some hectic travelling for the next 10 days so might be tardy in my response times, but will be continuing as usual and very eager to keep looking.

Can you find this "me" that they are "located around?" 

LOOK, really look. 

Where exactly is it? Can you See, Hear, Feel, Taste or Smell this "me?" Is it the body? We'll look at that with an exercise later. Where is it? Point to this "me.

" 

The me isn't found or rather it feels like a sensation in the body (specifically the chest and throat area) is what the me is believed to be. I know I'm not a senation but I can't shake this belief

Can you predict your next thought?

I tested this and found certain thoughts like "I'll count to 10" were able to let me predict the next thought (actual numbers) but that only has a short window before it trails of. So in a sense yes in a limited fashion I can, but not the thought that started the series.

But how did you "decide" to count and not to say the alphabet or the multiplication tables? Did any "me" actually "choose?"

And isn't any learned sequence the same as learned language? Check. These are the content of thought. Someone had to teach you about them. They have no meaning on their own. No AE. Just like any learned string of words. 

Hmm.. yes without learning it I wouldn't have a sequence. Also the casuality of the thought would also be based on observation of nature which is learnt. If I was on an alien planet with different laws then my experiences would have no correlation with what thought predicts. Then thought is just a learned prediction I guess. (Realize this is a thought contents deviation but useful to clarify if my understanding is accurate?)

But I can direct attention away from something that is known to generate negative thoughts. Like seeing one thought come up, and then another saying it negative and a decision to look away or distract me from having more of those thoughts.

Can you? If so, please describe exactly HOW you do this? What is the mechanism? What are the steps you take? Thoughts are tricky. We believe so many untrue things that we don't even notice. We've just accepted them and gotten used to them. But again, HOW did you do some thing called "direct attention away?" 

A thought arises, a contraction sensation arises, attention goes to it, a learned next step of watching the breath arises and focus on breathing happens. Another learned association. Can't find a director of the process.

Also, I feel I can become aware of a particular bodily function and focus on that to suppress thoughts such as focusing on breath. That can be done without a thought that initiated it.

Same questions: Please describe exactly HOW you do this. What is the mechanism? What steps do you take? 

Point to the exact moment of this choice or decision. What happens? 

HOW do you "suppress" a thought? (Yes, everything is done without a thought that initiated it. That's the point here.)

Stopping the thought happens on its own. Almost when a particular thought stream is recognized as not productive or not beneficial based on past learning. Later on the thought arises that seems to brush all that automatic functions away and take credit for doing it.

Have a weird feeling of losing some footing here. Of a chain reaction where cause and effect are somehow linked or not separate. Won't take the tangent.

You say you "feel" you can become aware, but where do you "feel" this? Or is it actually a thought?

Is this all Thought Arising, with content that cannot be Seen, Heard, Felt, Smelled or Tasted?

Check very carefully. LOOK. 

I'm not sure about this one. For example i can have 5 thoughts, one following each other that logically are connected (in content) and build on each other. And there might be a thought as well that says they are connected. Even if we invalidate the thought that claims it, the contents of thought are connected yes?

Yes, this seems to be the case ONLY if Thought says so. There is no reality to any kind of "logic" or "sequence" if you take away this thought that says so. But do not believe me. You must LOOK and see it for yourself. 

I'm seeing this clearer now. Logic and sequence is learned and the content of thought is just a word or a symbol that doesn't have inherent qualities of logic.

If there are any other questions around this I feel it would be good for me to dig deeper into causality


Love,
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid,

Doing some hectic travelling for the next 10 days so might be tardy in my response times, but will be continuing as usual and very eager to keep looking.

Good to know. Thank you. We'll keep LOOKING (NOT THINKING).

The me isn't found or rather it feels like a sensation in the body (specifically the chest and throat area) is what the me is believed to be. I know I'm not a senation but I can't shake this belief

Notice you said "believed to be." This indicates content of thought. What do you know about content of thought?

You said "know" which also indicates content of thought. Thought is your god. You worship it, believe it, don't question it, follow it like a slave to it. Can you see this?

There will be no reason to "shake this belief" once you SEE what is true. It is simply SEEN.

On Sunday, you started your post with:

Hi Stacy, I spent time with this today and here are my thoughts.

Why? Remember, we have no interest in the content of thought. This may sound harsh, but it is what is needed to SEE what is real, i.e. what takes NO THOUGHT, NO BELIEF, NO STORY.

If there are any other questions around this I feel it would be good for me to dig deeper into causality

Forgive me. I had to laugh a little when I read this. How can we dig deeper into what does not exist? :) We will, in a way, but first let's address that "feeling of self" in your chest & throat area.

Lost Keys Exercise

Let’s say that you have lost your keys and you swear that you left them in your coat. You go to look and check all the pockets - the keys are not there. You swear they must be, because that was the last place you remember them. You have a vivid memory of putting them there after you left the house. But when you check they are not there. At this point you can
keep believing that the keys are in your pocket, or you can admit you were mistaken. This is just like that. You may see clearly that the self is an illusion but still feel a sense of self - just like the keys. But feeling something to be true and seeing that it is or is not is different.

This is why we may find ourselves coming back to your expectations at the start and at the end.

Now, I’d like to ask you to explore this SENSE of self very-very thoroughly. Not by thinking about it, but by FEELING it.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

1. Does the sense of self have a location?

2. Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

3. Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

4. If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

5. Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

6. What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Thought?

Stop reporting the content of thinking. Start LOOKING. Tell me what is SEEN. This is the key!

You can do this!

Much love,

[Philosoraptr]

Hi Stacy, Just a note that I read through the message and started on the exercises. Pretty tiring day and I wasn't able to look for long so I want to spend more time looking tomorrow before replying.

More to come,
Cheers
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Sounds good. Thanks for letting me know.

You are getting this. I know it may not seem like it, but you are.

Much love,

[Philosoraptr]

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

1. Does the sense of self have a location?

It feels located around the chest to throat area. It's also the area that is felt most vividly when an insult or perceived threat to self appears.
When looking in a relaxed and quiet setting, then I don't feel myself to be in those bodily sensations either. I look into each of the AEs, ignoring thought contents and I can't say that I'm (or my self) is to be found in them.

2. Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Just the front and back of the chest area.

3. Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

I ignore thought contents that tell me it "feels" like I'm behind the eyes watching behind a screen. But in the real AE of feeling there's no such thing.

4. If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Not sensed in AEs

5. Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes?

It is aware of all the AEs and it is present and exists. or rather I'm here that's undeniable.

6. What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation?
Thought?

No it's not to be found in any of those in direct experience

Notice you said "believed to be." This indicates content of thought. What do you know about content of thought?

You said "know" which also indicates content of thought. Thought is your god. You worship it, believe it, don't question it, follow it like a slave to it. Can you see this?

Very true..I was overlooking the fact that know and feel were coming from thought and not an AE. Yes thought is a terrible chain that seems to yank me around..has been much worse in the past but that's what prompted the seeking so it'll be a relief when it's not the main driver. Appreciate you being direct about the areas I'm stuck in.

Love,
Sid

[Anastacia42]

Hi Sid,

Appreciate you being direct about the areas I'm stuck in.

Isn't that what you hired me for? :-)

Very true..I was overlooking the fact that know and feel were coming from thought and not an AE.

GOOD! Now remember that.

It feels located around the chest to throat area. It's also the area that is felt most vividly when an insult or perceived threat to self appears.

Ohhhhhh!

I have saved the best for last. I really, really hope you can follow this. I'm going to give it to you in a couple of steps.

First, remember a time when you lied to someone you loved. As you think of that time, scan your body in the chest area and notice what Sensations come up.

Then describe the Sensations only in body terms.

In other words do not tell me about emotions or thoughts at all. We want to look only at what a body can sense, such as temperature, weight, tension (or its opposite), tingling, things like that.

Please report back with a few of these Sensations and then we'll take the next step.

Loving this!