The Gate

And does seperation come into existence when the eyes open?

Yes

Are you expecting the sense of seperation to go?

Yes, you're right. I'm expecting this sense of separation to magically fall away upon opening my eyes

If so, the sense of seperation is proportional to the amount of identification, which isn't going to blow out of the water by being clear on there not existing an I or self.

I don't quite follow - would you please break this down for me?

Yes exactly, but when unexamined can carry lots of (conceptual caused) weight. The self is nothing more than such a label, but can carry quite some baggage. Do you see that?

Yes, it seems true particularly when triggered and there's lots of story-making happening. The sense of self reasserts itself and all this feels real. But then, when relaxed, the sense of self though present, is easily seen as non existent

Is there a self experiencing this sense of seperation? Where does this sense/feeling belong to?

No, there's just the sense of separation. The self is merely words and feeling which assert that there is a self and a sense of separation to boot.

A further question for me guage where you're at: How has this whole investigation been happening? Any self/Aswhin/you/person that has been doing or going through all of it?

Like I mentioned above, there are instances, particularly when emotionally triggered, when the sense of self appears to be strong. It comes up and makes the case that it's feeling very threatened and needs to secure itself by moving out and living alone, to avoid being hurt again

The other side is where things are nice and quiet with eyes closed - it's easy to realize then that is no sense of person really who's there and everything is automatically happening

Right now, when I stop and look as to who's doing the inquiry, it's clear no one is doing it...

Hello Ashwin,

It seems to me that you already have the clarity that liberationunleashed offers. This clarity doesn't have to come as something flashy or will dissolve all your tendencies and sense of self or sense of separation, although for some degree sure it can. Do you feel anything changed compared to before the inquiry?

And does seperation come into existence when the eyes open?

Yes

Do you mean real separation here or the feeling of being separated? If the first, please reexamine that, if the later, it would take more work on your part to unroot that which makes your experience feels separated:-)

I don't quite follow - would you please break this down for me?

yes, having some understanding that there is no self is not enough to get rid of all the conditioning or programming and concepts that you've gathered from birth on. This is what's making your experience be formed to how it is. It would take a lot of further examination and mindfulness to unroot everything, but that is beyond the scope of this forum.

Love,
Floris

It seems to me that you already have the clarity that liberationunleashed offers. This clarity doesn't have to come as something flashy or will dissolve all your tendencies and sense of self or sense of separation, although for some degree sure it can.

Hi Floris :)

Interesting that you think this. Here I am, though, thinking that something more (an awakening experience) needs to happen. It feels a bit confusing to hear that there's nothing more to seek...Am not sure where to go from here

Do you feel anything changed compared to before the inquiry?

Very subtle ones. Not the kind I was expecting at all :) Overall there's a greater clarity about the lack of a self directing or running the show. There's also been a noticeable loss of interest or motivation in most things in the last few days. It's more of running through the motions...

And while it's clear who I'm not, I can't tell who I really am. Things feel a little incomplete...

yes, having some understanding that there is no self is not enough to get rid of all the conditioning or programming and concepts that you've gathered from birth on. This is what's making your experience be formed to how it is. It would take a lot of further examination and mindfulness to unroot everything, but that is beyond the scope of this forum.

I hear you :) But then again, feeling a little lost on how to proceed from here...

Ashwin

Hi Ashwin,

Interesting that you think this. Here I am, though, thinking that something more (an awakening experience) needs to happen. It feels a bit confusing to hear that there's nothing more to seek...Am not sure where to go from here

Ha, no that's not what is supposed to happen. For some seeing there is no self can give an (often temporarily) different experience, like bliss or an end of seeking, but for most people the difference is more subtle and not flashy.
"It feels a bit confusing to hear that there is nothing more to seek", yes I understand. Some of the guides here would tell you that indeed there is nothing to seek, although my perspective is that there is more to explore and deeper to go. It's just a matter of perspective, and it's up to you of course. I think if you would be confirmed as having seen through the illusion, you would be joined in a facebook group, from where you could join other groups to explore further, or share your experience, etc. There is also a possibility of starting a thread in 'further investigation', a section on the website that would open up for you.

Very subtle ones. Not the kind I was expecting at all :) Overall there's a greater clarity about the lack of a self directing or running the show. There's also been a noticeable loss of interest or motivation in most things in the last few days. It's more of running through the motions...

That's pretty common, nice:-)

And while it's clear who I'm not, I can't tell who I really am.

Without a self, what's left?

I hear you :) But then again, feeling a little lost on how to proceed from here...

I hope my first respons covered this:-) If not, ask away

After an inquiry, some confirmation questions are asked. Would you like me to ask them? This could reveal if some points are not clear yet, or might need more exploration.

Floris

Hi Floris :)

some of the guides here would tell you that indeed there is nothing to seek, although my perspective is that there is more to explore and deeper to go.

I agree with your perspective... it seems delusional at this point to think that there is nothing to seek. While it's clear there's no seeker, the seeking tendency seems strong-willed and continues to show up in different thought forms. But at the same time, there's also a lot of compassion for these patterns, including the so called self that can get so caught up with them...

I think if you would be confirmed as having seen through the illusion, you would be joined in a facebook group, from where you could join other groups to explore further, or share your experience, etc. There is also a possibility of starting a thread in 'further investigation', a section on the website that would open up for you

.


Yes, please. Indeed, am quite excited to further the exploration. The support system doesn't sound a bad deal at all, given what I've received from you through direct, but gentle approach. I'm quite blown away by the approach to be honest, and personally consider this an art form :)

Without a self, what's left?

Ha, just this :)

After an inquiry, some confirmation questions are asked. Would you like me to ask them? This could reveal if some points are not clear yet, or might need more exploration

Sure, please do :)

Warmly,
Ashwin

Hi Ashwin,

I agree with your perspective... it seems delusional at this point to think that there is nothing to seek. While it's clear there's no seeker, the seeking tendency seems strong-willed and continues to show up in different thought forms. But at the same time, there's also a lot of compassion for these patterns, including the so called self that can get so caught up with them...

Wonderful:)

Yes, please. Indeed, am quite excited to further the exploration. The support system doesn't sound a bad deal at all, given what I've received from you through direct, but gentle approach. I'm quite blown away by the approach to be honest, and personally consider this an art form :)

I'ts good to hear that. Make sure you don't get yourself lost in joining all those groups;)

Sure, please do :)

Okay, here goes:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?

Floris

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was
there ever?

No, none found. 'Self', 'me', 'I' are mere words and letters which arise with certain feelings and sensations

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from
your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The separate self is merely words, mental images, feelings and bodily sensations coming together to create, assert and maintain a sense of separation. The self starts to form once a child begins to learn a language, which deeply implants the subject-object relationship into the child, through its constant use by subtle and overt means. This creates a strong sense of separation at all levels including the physical, mental, emotional and energetic levels.

After several years of training, this sense of self is so strong that it's almost taken for granted that this 'self' is as real as a table, a chair or a car. This self, being a contracted one, thinks, feels and acts like a separate entity. It feels vulnerable, and demands survival at all costs, so it keeps asserting itself many times through the day so that it is acknowledged and 'fed' through attention.

This separate stance causes a lot of suffering through being controlling, demanding, needy, feeling threatened, threatening others, feeling unsafe, feeling unseen, feeling physical pain, being rejected, humiliated and so on.

The suffering thus created confronts the now grown up person to look more closely at their experiences to see what's happening...thus ultimately paving the way for their eventual freedom from suffering :)

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?
Please report from the past few days.

It's a funny feeling, because it was a lot easier to see that there was no self than to ACCEPT what was seen! It was only when you bought this fact to my notice that has helped with the acceptance of this seeing. The dialog has been a tremendous blessing in this sense. Also it was quite thorough in that we weren't leaving anything out.

The tricky part was the mind holding out for a samadhi kind of experience (as the dialog went along), or some such transformative experience, where all separation was gone. This was the main stumbling block, in retrospect...

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

Like I mentioned, looking wasn't hard. It was accepting what I'd seen which was...which happened 2 days ago when you suspected that I already seen through the notion of 'no-self'. I feel like this was crucial

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

'Decision', 'intention', 'free will', 'choice' and 'control' are useful conceptual tools to translate ideation to action or vice versa. All these are valid when seen this way, but to assume there's an operator using these tools is erroneous and cause lot of mental and emotional suffering.

Things happen automatically, needing no agency. Of course, we could assume a sense of agency, but this doesn't change the nature of things one bit.

Personally, when looked at directly, I'm not responsible for anything, and this is seemingly true for others as well. But I do notice a sense of responsibility which arises either spontaneously or habitually depending on circumstances which prompt action. These responsibilities would include maintaining personal hygiene, following traffic rules, showing up on time to teach exercise to clients, paying for goods and so on. But it's clear that there's no self or I doing these actions or being responsible
for them...

6) Anything to add?

:) :) :) :) :)

Hi Ashwin,

Nice answers, and good to see that after you had the idea that you were already 'there', your amount of smileys went up:-) Another guide has read our thread too and confirmed you as having seen. You probably have already gotten a PM from an admin, or otherwise will get one soon.

That was our thread! Thank you for your honesty and trust :-)

I wish you well,
Floris

Ah, thanks Floris.

I was just thinking of PM-ing you to...thank you for your guidance and pointing.

Thank you, thank you, thank you :)

I felt very supported throughout the duration of the dialogue. It was a pleasure...

Yes I did the message from one of the admins earlier in the day

I have an issue or two that I wanted to chat with you about. Would you it be okay to discuss them through PM or email?

Ashwin

Hello,

Ah thank you for that, and for letting me know. It was a pleasure:)

And sure, PM away

Floris