I am...

[Casper]

Dear Anastacia

Thank you, and it would be great to chat about writing later. Looking forward to it.

This new exercise is terrific.
It is an eye-opening point.
If I look to a friend and or a stranger i don't find any difference in the direct experience. In the thought content of a friend because i have learned history of him or her, it feels familiar but in the direct reality, there is no such a thing a friend. A friend is like a stranger and a stranger is like a friend. No difference. Another important thing that it is clear i can't know another person, i can only know my experience of him or her.
If I look at myself it is also just made up of content, learned and stored memory of experiences. All that i think I am as a person is just past experiences and most of it is random and accidental events. Therefore the self-identity had to have to go in direct experience. It is not easy to accept that the "personal identity "is never really in charge, not in control. It is only the content of thought. I can get as deep as that what is real in me is the knowledge of liveliness and the present experience. Life energy, awareness.
When i started this exercise I wasn't thinking that I get to this far but here we go. This is a good pointer for "no self". Thank you.
Like the new quote in your signature.
Best wishes
Cs

[Anastacia42]

Hi Csaba,

I'm glad you like the quote. I took the Natalie Goldberg down so it wouldn't be distracting us.

Good job with the exercise!

So you are clear that there are only 6 possible answers to "what is Actual Experience?"

1. Color/Image
2. Sound
3. Sensation
4. Taste
5. Smell
6. Thought Arising (but nothing more - not the content or story or label)

Thought is where most people get stuck. That's why we have several ways of looking at this. You've seen that the label "friend," or "stranger" or "me" is just a label and is not Actual or Direct Experience. Good!

Next, for a moment take note of exactly what is being experienced in this moment:

Notice all sound, all sensation, all smell, all taste, all color.

Notice how you're making absolutely no effort to be aware of them.

And notice that you're not making them happen.

You're not conducting the orchestra of experience that you're aware of. And notice that thought is exactly the same as the rest of experience. You're effortlessly aware of it, but you're not orchestrating it. You're not even orchestrating the thoughts which say that you're able to orchestrate thoughts.


Let me know how it goes to notice this.

Much love,

[Casper]

Dear Anastacia
Yes i am clear with this :
1. Color/Image
2. Sound
3. Sensation
4. Taste
5. Smell
6. Thought Arising (but nothing more - not the content or story or label)

And i am agreed with nr 6. being the most difficult. What about the feelings, are they arising or they are the result of a thought or the content of the thought?

Noticing the direct experience is relaxing, and leaving behind accumulated labels, contents are a relief. But very easy to jump on to the next thought and go with it and leave the direct experience. Yes, it is understandable there is no control. It is flowing from moment to moment. It is a humbling feeling to accepting that. Sometimes difficult. But it is true.

Thank you, all the best

Cs

[Anastacia42]

Good morning!

Here in Colorado, US. I'm not you're sure you've told me where you are.

What about the feelings, are they arising or they are the result of a thought or the content of the thought?

By "feelings," it sounds like you mean emotions.

I use "emotions" for the feelings like anger, sadness, happiness, excitement, etc. I use "sensations" for the body sensation. Using the word "feelings" gets too confusing.

Well, take a LOOK.

Which part stays no matter what you do?

Which part goes away if you start telling a made-up story about it or labeling it?

Take a look at each of these specific emotions and tell me what part is Actual Experience and what part is not.

Fear
Excitement
Anger
Helplessness
Joy
Sadness
Surprise



I will be happy to answer your question, but I think you may be able to see for yourself and that is far more valuable.

Noticing the direct experience is relaxing, and leaving behind accumulated labels, contents are a relief. But very easy to jump on to the next thought and go with it and leave the direct experience. Yes, it is understandable there is no control. It is flowing from moment to moment. It is a humbling feeling to accepting that. Sometimes difficult. But it is true.

Yes! Truth, reality, actual experience is so much more relaxed because we are not straining to make up things. The reason it is easy to leave direct experience is just habit.

Much love,

[Casper]

Hi Anastacia
I live in the UK, Milton Keynes, I guess there are a few hours difference. I usually write these before bed. I am not the freshest but is good to reflect on my day as well.
Sensations are clear, and I can find that I feel the floor through the bottom of my shoe, and feel the chairs support, the gentle touch of my t-shirt on my shoulder. They stay as long as I stay in the same position.
Emotions are more difficult
Let's see the first
Fear 1:
there is a car about to hit me, - actual experience the car approaching
there is fear of danger, or death- thought arising
I need to move- moving actual experience
in this case, fear did not stay, and the danger is avoided.
Fear2 :
I am anxious about not having enough money,
so here I have an emotion in my body, a bad feeling -this I feel it could be an actual experience, but if I look closer I find :
I know money is a label, and the actual experience is the present moment which is fine, and this is a future fear. This future fears causing the bad emotion in the body which results in the same thoughts again and again. Is this like a cycle?
It is helpful to spend some time thinking on this, am I in the right direction?

Appreciate your time and help
Kind Regards
Cs

[Anastacia42]

Good evening, then, Csaba,

I think it's around 11 pm there. Here it is 4 pm.

Well, I have to say that what is happening is that you are making it a bit too complicated and believing too many labels and thoughts. One or two places you are heading the right direction, but mostly not yet. Don't worry. I've written out lots of explanations here that should help.

Sensations are clear, and I can find that I feel the floor through the bottom of my shoe, and feel the chairs support, the gentle touch of my t-shirt on my shoulder. They stay as long as I stay in the same position.

The only thing in the above that is AE is Sensation. None of the rest of that is Actual Experience. You really do only have 6 words to choose from - no more.

To be specific, there is no floor, no bottom, no shoe, no chair, no support, nothing gentle, no t-shirt and no shoulder. None of that is AE.

There are only 6 possible answers to "what is Actual Experience?" Six things only. Not one word more.

1. Color/Image
2. Sound
3. Sensation
4. Taste
5. Smell
6. Thought Arising (but nothing more - not the content or story or label)

This time, I did not ask about any specific fear or emotion, but it is understandable to think of one to help you discover what is Actual (or Direct) Experience.

So, the answer to the question about emotions is this:

Emotions are a combination of Sensation + Thought Arising. Nothing more. Not another word about it could possibly be AE.

In Fear 1, this is the only one that is AE:

Fear = sensation plus thought - you seem to have that one, you said "thought arising"

In your Fear 1 example here are the things that are NOT Actual Experience. They are completely made up story, content of thought. Everything but the 6 Actual Experiences is a lie, a story, a fabrication, content of thought that we completely made up. Someone had to teach it to you. If you were a little baby who could not talk, could you see, hear, sense, taste, touch any of them? No. Not at all.

Not AE:
Car = Color
Approaching = Image
Moving is not AE, but some sensation is.

Fear 2.
Money = thought arising if you're just thinking it
Money = color if you see some
Money = color plus sensation if you touch it and see it

No, there is no AE called "cycle."
Can you SEE some THING called "cycle?" No.
Does it make any sound? No.
Can you touch "cycle?" No.
Smell it? No.
Taste it? No.
So, a Thought Arises and we make up the story "cycle," which is content and NOT Actual Experience. There is no such thing as "cycle" in AE.

You are quite welcome, Csaba. I enjoy helping to explain this.

So, first read through all of this and then we'll try the list of emotions again - but first let's make sure you're clearer about the only 5 senses and Thought Arising that are AE.

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

By the way, Csaba, I was so focused on the explanations that I forgot to thank YOU for your perseverance. It takes courage and work to LOOK and to question all of these made-up thoughts we believe. It can be very frustrating ... until it is not. Most people just stay in the dream, but somehow, you decided to try to wake up.

Much love,

[Casper]

Dear Anastacia

I am so glad I found this place and having this conversation with you, thank you for your patient and guidance.
I understand there is no self, I understand as well that anything regarding the self is imaginary including the emotions. Sometimes I believe them more than I wish, and they have an effect on me more than I would like. I don't know how can I feel them less. Sometimes just knowing that they are not real, doesn't help. My question was vague, and my example not great but that was what I could think of at that moment.
I see the difference between sensations and emotions. I wrote three example for bodily sensation, on the surface of the skin. Without labels, I would write sensation, sensation, and sensation, and wouldn't make much more sense.
I have to use labels to be able to talk.
I found in the questions difficult to understand, that "if I look they stay. " I think this meant to be if they point to an actual experience that it is true experience, if not it is imaginary, but not sure. Could you explain this?
In the two example, about the fear I tried to show with labels that in one case the emotion doesn't stay, where is in the other the emotion returns again and again.
If there is no self, most of the worries thought could go. I see that. Surprise, joy, helplessness, if they include the self they are not true.
But there are emotions and this is what I would like to know about emotions they feel different and I can't relate to self.
If I feel love to nature, object, animals, humans, without the involvement of the self. If I found something breathtakingly beautiful? Or if I get startled and I feel it in my body? Or if I have a gut feeling about something? Those part of emotion I am interested. Could you help with these? Sometimes they felt before the mind could process them. Does that make sense?
I happy to go through any exercise you think is helpful, and I find it very helpful the tracing back method to the actual experience.
Thank you again
Best wishes
Cs

[Anastacia42]

Hi Csaba,

I just want you to know that I saw your reply. It's bedtime here for me and I will reply tomorrow.

In the meantime, I want to strongly suggest that you start reading "Gateless Gatecrashers," which is a free download here from the Books link above. I believe reading other people's experiences could help you a lot.

Good night,

[Anastacia42]

Hi Csaba,

Okay, let me help you see clearly about these emotions. Let's take it very slowly. One piece at a time. You wrote

Without labels, I would write sensation, sensation, and sensation, and wouldn't make much more sense.

That is the correct answer.

Emotions = Sensation + Thought Arising

Without the labels what is there?

Don't worry, you aren't going to lose your ability to appreciate beauty, love, etc. Pain is still a sensation and will be there.

Without the labels... What is there?

I have to use labels to be able to talk.

Not here. Sure, you'll keep using them to talk with people, but for now do the exercises. There is no need to talk in the usual way. Language may have to change in order to express what is there beyond the words. Beyond the labels. Before the labels. Just do the LOOKING. Focus everything on the exercises.

Much love,

[Casper]

Dear Anastacia

Without the labels what is there?

There is nothing, and only now I see this aspect. If the impulse and the sense are the same that is basically nothing. That's the one hand clapping. I understood only half when I saw the universe is consciousness, and i did not look further to see, that it is nothing at the same time. Everything is nothing at the same time.
The emotions are part of the illusion. This is like having a root canal done.
I started the book, by the way, did not get very far yet but I keep reading.
Thank You for showing me this
Bowing
Cs

[Anastacia42]

Hi Csaba!

Thank you. That is very funny and not funny at the same time.

The emotions are part of the illusion. This is like having a root canal done.

Yes. That's why we remind people that seeing that there is no self is only the first step. Then all the beliefs that are attached to it have to be examined, too. It takes time.

I started the book, by the way, did not get very far yet but I keep reading.

Oh good. It helped me a lot to see what it was like for others who have been before me.

Thank You for showing me this

You are so welcome!

Bowing back to you. This is what I do for fun.

Much love,

[Anastacia42]

Hi Csaba,

I imagine you are still reading "Gateless Gatecrashers." Good.

Let's try an exercise about emotions again. Perhaps it is clearer now. You see that emotions are part of the illusion. Good. Now look closely at just one emotion you can find either now or recently.

None of the labels of emotions (fear, sadness, surprise, anger, joy, happiness, excitement) are Actual Experience, but some Sensation arises and we label that.

Emotion = Sensation + Thought Arising

So, for example:

Fear = Sensation (labeled quick breathing, tightness in chest, maybe holding breath, etc.) + Thought Arising (Content may be something like "that bear is going to eat me.")

Do you have any emotion arising right now? If so, can you find the Sensation and the Thought Arising?

You can say what the label of the emotion is and what the story/content of the thought is - but those are not Actual Experience. Take a LOOK.

What is found in Actual Experience in some emotion you have right now? Or one you had recently? Tell me about that.

Much love,

[Casper]

Dear Anastacia
Yes, I was reading the book and found it interesting. About halfway through. Can't be hundred percent certain but I had the feeling that not all of those people understood it completely or fully. It is not a critique or a negative mark. Just a feeling.
Sensation and thought arising that is all. I know it doesn't matter.
By the way, I haven't found anyone in that book who realised the big emptiness. Maybe there will be someone later in the book, or you could tell me your experience if it is not too personal to ask. I am glad that my first glimpse wasn't that. It is a bit depressing seeing that everything is nothing. Now I understand why some people stopped doing anything. And here are again those emotions, depressing, glad - all not true.

"If I don’t turn to the gate of the void, How can I purge my heart? "

I still like this line from that poem, and now it makes more sense - void is the emptiness and heart is the emotions and they get purged at the gate.
Thank you for your time and help Anastacia it is incredible what you guys doing.
Best wishes
Cs

[Anastacia42]

Hi Csaba,

I'm glad you're getting something from this.

Nothing is too personal. My experiences tend to be more of the connection and full kind, rather than emptiness, although I have had those as well and can look at that if I... I don't know... Turn my attention that way? I tend to use that skill for looking at things that most people find traumatizing. Emptiness is great when it's in that context.

I believe you may be seeing that there is no self. What we're doing is giving you context for other things like decisions, control, free will, emotions, thought, time, and body. We haven't gotten to some of those yet.

I saw no self years before hearing about LU and going through this process gave me context for a lot of things that was very helpful.

Whenever you're ready, you can ask me to give you final questions.

Of these: decisions, control, free will, emotions, thought, time, and body, which so you maybe feel unclear about and want to try an exercise? Which are giving you any trouble or confusion?


Love,